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Hyena, you misunderstand the nature of free speech. You are free to voice your opinions, and of course, we are free to respond with our opinions of your opinions, and of you, for holding such opinions.

Your freedom of speech is only threatened if someone actually prevents you from speaking or if you face significant sanctions of some kind for speaking. You face neither, just normal disagreement.

 Mr Hyena wrote:

As was well-described earlier in the thread, even if we're talking about chromosomal or physical SEX (as opposed to gender, which is more fluid and has to do with identity and societal conventions), nature has a lot more variety than just male/female.

Its not the body that is the problem. Its the mind. A stay in a correctional institution would work wonders for it, as would developing new treatments which don't involve invasive surgery.

And who are you to decide that their mind needs "correcting"?

Heres the thing; gender identity isn't something that just changes. It's like a rigid fluid (stay with the analogy for a while) tha scale is fairly fluid, with people being at any point between "normal" male and female, but that specific person's gender identity is fixed. They may not understand it (in the case of someone who identifies as a woman having been raised as a boy, it may take a long time to come to terms with their gender), but it isn't something you can just "wish better".

Attempting to deal with this stuff like homosexuality used to be treated "Hey guys, maybe if we used electroshock therapy they'll change orientation!" or "Maybe we can convince them that they're image of themselves is wrong! That won't leave any lasting psychological damage!" doesn't fix anything. We learned that from the (still occuring, but less stigmatised) LGB part of LGBT; people that advocate "praying away the gay" are largely ridiculed, and rightly so, so why should the same sort of "oh, if we just talk about it!" nonsense work here?

Also I just saw the first two sentences of your post. wow. That is completely wrong. To Trans* people, they were born with the wrong body. just because you think "oh, they've got these parts, so they must be this gender" doesn't change that in the slightest, and frankly the fact that you think that you can say "actually you're just a bit messed up, if we just talk about it we'll be able to turn you back to normal" to deal with these issues strikes me as both ignorant of them, and uncaring.

 generalgrog wrote:
For example look at some of the reactions in this thread... anyone who has an opinion that transgender/homsexuality is wrong is immediately labeled ignorant/backwards/or a bigot.

Thats classic "thought police" stuff right there.


GG

That's classic "Progress" stuff right there. Just because you think that Trans* people are some sort of abomination in the eyes of your lord doesn't mean that they are. Mark 12:31 and all that.

 SickSix wrote:
And that is what really gets me pissed off, is that it's not good enough to 'tolerate' people of alternate lifestyles, now we are expected to celebrate their choices that we may or may not agree with or are held up as bigots/racists/whatever the flavor of the month term the left comes up with next.

No you're not. You're expected to go about your business without being a dick. That's all.

Also, you may not have noticed, due your viewpoint being so narrow, but in this thread it's pretty much everyone condemning you and your position, no matter their political affiliation.

 Sigvatr wrote:
My point is: Peregrine's post is just a perfect example of hypocrits at work. You feel offended when people do not happily embrace any sort of life style and claim that they are intolerant but at the same time, are unwilling to tolerate those people's opinions...which is a textbook definition of hypocrisy.

I am fine with them living how they want, it's their very own choice and if they want to get some boobs, sure, why not, as long as I'm not paying for it. It's their choice after all.

You cannot, however, force me to think that one should praise them for finding their "true gender", because I don't believe in that transgender stuff. They need psychological, not surgical help, and by happily praising their choice to go visit Dr. Boob, you automatically despite those who actively seek (and find!) psychological help with their issue.

Except people here are tolerating your opinion. They're just also pointing out that it makes you seem rather ignorant. As I said earlier in the post, the issue here isn't their heads, it's their bodies and you stating that its their heads.

What would you do if someone had a magic wand and you woke up with a woman's body? Would you be perfectly fine with it? or would you be fairly put out? I reckon it would be the latter, and unless you are incredibly happy with modifying your own body, you'd probably want some way of changing back right? now imagine that, but rather than waking up in the moment and it happening instantly, that you gradually realise that you're in the wrong body over the course of years. That would suck, wouldn't it?

 azazel the cat wrote:
Also, queer isn't considered a homophobic term anymore. They took it back. It's the Q in LGBTQ.

I thought that the Q was meant to represent GenderQueer people? (I may be wrong on this)

 generalgrog wrote:
Sigvatr...hypocrisy abounds when it to comes to this issue.

There are many people who want to make themselves feel like good people by accepting just about anything.

GG

Accepting just about anything, apart from bigots who don't accept people for who they are because their imaginary freind (in my opinion) said so.

I can say that, because if you're allowed to be bigoted and hate on Trans* people, I can be bigoted and hate on bigoted religious people; it's like bigotception!

Ain't free speech grand?

 Mr Hyena wrote:
Telling people what to think is thought police though.

Not how to think, how to act.
As in, don't act like polite conversation's butthole.

 Mr Hyena wrote:
Except your not doing that. Your demanding respect for one group, while not giving any to the group your asking it from.

They are. They are patiently asking for your reasoning, rather than just hurling profanities at you like many people would.

And here's you being a hypocrit in a way, by demanding that they respect you more, whilst not respecting the people that they're defending.

I think that's all I've got. Me making an actual post rather than rebutting people's points would just be re-iterating myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow. I think that's my longest ever post.

 Mr Hyena wrote:
Telling people what to think is thought police though.

You're absolutely right, we should meet up, have a cup of tea and then I can stab you to death with a fork on a whim, cos rules are a drag!

Or... you could acknowledge that societies have constructed laws based around not devolving into that unpleasant recorded message scene in Event Horizon. One of the things societies do as they advance away from fearing that thunder is demons throwing their furniture about, or volcanic activity is the result of the dragons under the earth puking up after too many sugary treats or that 'the tides, you can't explain that!' etc, is that we afford greater tolerances to straying from what is considered 'the norm', with the provision that it does not harm others and won't pull the fabric of the society apart.

Men getting operations to turn them into women, or vice versa so they'll be happier is not, as was so utterly ludicrously stated earlier, 'the end of western civilization! It's just people deciding, after many years, that they are in the wrong bodies and are able to change this.

And whilst the surgery exists only recently, this 'phenomena' has existed in societies since records began, either met with the sort of derision and hate we've seen in this thread or with acceptance into a role, often as the 'third gender'.

 SickSix wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 SickSix wrote:

purplefood wrote:
You aren't expected to do anything.

If that were true, people wouldn't get attacked for voicing their dissenting opinions now would they? So we can at minimum establish that all those that don't agree with LBGT lifestyles are expected to keep their mouths shut and not participate in the conversation, or they suffer the punishment of being demonized.

Cause you're hating on love man, not cool the LBGT just want to be treated like normal human beings why do you have to hate them? What did they do wrong?

I hope you are being sarcastic.

If not your statement is the PERFECT example of what I'm talking about. Suddenly having a different opinion = hate? I think you need to look up the definition of hate and then you can return to the conversation.

You called them freaks.

That's not a differing opinion. That's hate. You don't have to bake her a cake. You don't have to hold her hand and sing Kum Bah Ya. You don't even have to hold the door open for her at the DMV. You just have to be a decent person and not call her names.

But you can't see it. You couldn't take back calling her a freak. I gave you a shot, buddy. Which is more than you did for anyone you think is a "freak."

And...done with you.

 Mr Hyena wrote:

Yes, I am.

"I don't agree with what you said, but I'll defend your right to say it"

Is quite honestly an honorable thing. To say a groups views are taboo from discussion is silencing the opposition and that has never ended well for humanity, no matter how good the reason.

I see... Your trying to shut people down buy calling names...

I don't see that your views have been moderated, or that you have been banned. I don't see that the thread has been closed. Your using an argument for free and open discussion too:

1) make yourself look like the victim. People here have just as much right to say you are wrong as you do to say it, but your trying to shut them down by playing the victim. Well, that dosn't wash.

2) make anything you say acceptable by complaining it is free speach. The concept of defending someones right to say something is not about defending offensive words, but about defending views. You have every right to disagree with the concept of transexuality and homosexualtiy, if you disagree in a reasons and sensible way. This dose not include jumping in to a thread on a website and calling people freaks then getting upset when people call you out on that.

Please, do stop it. If you have something to say, then say it, but have some dam respect for others.

I actually really like this thread. A bunch of people earned their way off my ignore list by being cool about this.

 Rented Tritium wrote:
I actually really like this thread. A bunch of people earned their way off my ignore list by being cool about this.

I like it and don't like it. I like the fact that people that really disagree on everything are on the same side. I dislike it because it's the first thread in forever that's genuinely made me angry, rather than just exhasperated.

 Goliath wrote:

Accepting just about anything, apart from bigots who don't accept people for who they are because their imaginary freind (in my opinion) said so.

I have to pull you up on this because this is not a god thing, but a bigot thing. People use religion as an excuse for all sorts of bigoty, just like many other reasons.

Rule number 1, love thy nabour. Anything else is secondary, and the bible has about as much to say on it as it dose about how women should not pray with a shaved head... "a woman brings shame on her head if she prays or prophesies bare-headed; it is as bad as if her head were shaved." All the bible has to say is "Men, be gay, just don't have sex", but then it also tells people not to eat meat on Fridays, not have sex outside marrage and to have as many children as they can. Strange how many homophobic "christians" much a takeaway on a Friday, have sex with there partner and have no children...

Personaly, as a bisexual christian, I don't think god gives a flying feth where I put my dick, as long as the other person is consenting and I am not cheating on someone.

I just wanted to post this as I think you should take every chance you can to dismiss myths and distance your beliefs from extremists who use your faith for wrong.

I am genuinely shocked at how some people have acted here.

Frazzled, Whembly, Kalashnikov, and others, whom I agree with pretty much nothing they post, I've been reading and agreeing and even laughing along with their postings. It is infuriating.

I agree with Rented Tritium in that a lot of posters have redeemed themselves in the view of other posters on this forum with their responses here.

Sadly, some have also continued to condemn themselves, but then 2 or 3 of those people are pretty much irredeemable, so it's not a surprise.

The classic 'Open Letter to Dr Laura' covers my thoughts on those who claim alternative consenting lifestyles are an affront to the creator of universes...

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.

I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge
with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual
lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly
states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of
God's Law and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They
claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A
friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2.
The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.
How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of
getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we
just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people
who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable
expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

Anonymous

Remember; GOD HATES SHRIMP!

 Ahtman wrote:
I would agree, but I saw a guy congratulate the owners of a restaurant for taking all the wait staffs tips for themselves, and that it would encourage the waiters to work harder, and then thanked god for all his glory.

I decided to look it up again to get the exact quote: I saw the show and I like the way the do not give the tips to the help, because that will help them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps!! With God's love anything is possible!

I saw that, but I was under the impression that whoever wrote it was doing some trollception.

I would agree, but damn Poe's Law.

I think they tipped their hand with the "bootstraps" bit, personally.

Yeah, that's a pretty good indicator. I'll give you it.

I dunno...
The biggest problem with extremists is you never really know when they're joking or not...
Crazy bastards...

 Rented Tritium wrote:
I actually really like this thread.

Group hugs!

Come here, RT! Don't make me chase you!

With that heartwarming message this thread is done.