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I voted Necrons, they'll take a beating but are more equipped to win this particular mission (better mobility).

The riptide load-out seems odd to me in that it doesn't compliment the rest of the list very well. Switching one or two to ion accelerators would add some much needed range, AP2, and S8+. The Tau don't have a realistic answer to AV 13+ (hell even a decent amount of AV12 will probably give them fits) and if the Tau are clumped to make use of their Ethereal/Overwatch rules, the barges/arcing could do some serious damage.

I'm interested to see how much damage the tau gunline can put out against the wraiths though.

Nice pre-game analysis. What are your thoughts on the 4d6" moving, objective contesting Riptides?
My worry is that the Tau can take out all of your Wraiths and Lords by turn 3 or 4, then jump a couple of Riptides over to contest your objectives by turn 5 or 6. Even all the tesla in your army combined will struggle to bring down one Riptide.

The other issue I see is that, with no LOS blocking terrain, your Warriors will easily be wiped out if they try to grab an objective too soon. Say on turn 5 or turn 6, you disembark 2 units by an objective and the game goes on? There's no way they'll survive. How do you deal with that problem?

shogun wrote:

Also scrolled down the pictures. Really dont like the uneven objectives setup. If tau got to place 2 out of 3 objectives the won the game. Thats why my buddy and I always play with even objectives or place the third in the middle of the field.

I won the roll to place objectives first. I also won the roll to pick sides. My opponent won the roll to go first. My opponent actually surprised me by putting his objective in the middle of the board, but I suppose his strategy was to use his jetbikes to contest in the end.

Mark kelly wrote:
The overcharged burstcannon is 18 shoots its 12 or normal all at STR 6

It's 8 shots normal or 12 rending shots on Nova-charge.

Theorius wrote:
i dont see what this is going to prove? other than a ripping good time!!!!

LOL! I see what you did there. Very punny.

Theorius wrote:
you have a 100% optimized necron list, he does not have a 100% optimized tau list, I dont even think we know what that is yet....

right off the bat i dont agree with burst cannons at all...they are not the best option for the riptide.

yes you can nova for 12 shots (all of which are gets hot and only str 6) plus your missiles is 16 shots, with the ion cannon you can have 8 sms twin linked missiles from nova (str 7) and 3 ion shots (str 7) that do not get hot...and the ion cannon can be overcharged for blast. Overall, you got better options.

Personally, I will take 5 less shots that are all higher strength and 8 of them (vs 4) are twin linked which is way better vs air since the pathfinder markers are not going to light up any croissants.

basic math hammer - burst cannon 12 burst cannons hit 6 times (2 gets hot), doing 2 glances/pens (rending could be nice?) and 4 sms do 1.5 ---total of 3.5 (with less chance of pens vs glances)

ion accelerator - 3 shots doing .75 and 8 sms missiles will get 3 glances/pens - means 3.75 glances/pens (with WAY higher chance of pens)

His list is very good. I think it is a good blueprint for a non-deathstar, balanced Tau army. You're going to find future tournament lists to use similar armies like this, just as most competitive necron armies use lists similar to mine (not in any ways implying that I originated my list).

The HBC (Heavy Burst Cannons) are really good. If I ran 2 riptides, I would give them both HBC's. However, for my 3rd Riptide, I'd probably go with the Ion Acelerator to mix things up.

Dracoknight wrote:
Providing the Wraiths never get into melee, and the flyers are delayed it could be a easy victory to the Tau, in the case where all wraiths get into melee and all the flyers come in at the same time, Tau will struggle.

BTW, did I mention that his Warlord got the Warlord Trait of -1 on all my Reserves?

 hippesthippo wrote:
I think Crons win. Those D-Lord can take a lot shots and if only a few models make it into the gunline it might be over. I think Jy2 will be able to keep a Scythe or 2 out of skyfire range and play the objective game at the very least. Also, Anni Barge damage starts to add up quickly when they are left untouched, which they will be in this game.

Doom will hurt, but any Tau list without hymp-sides is doing something wrong.

Are HYMP broadsides really that good? My opponent already has a lot of anti-infantry shooting already. What I feel he lacks is some anti AV13/14 offense. His list will always have problems against my annihilation barges or my daemon soulgrinders.

 necron99 wrote:
I ran an identical necron list at 1850 (subtract one of the flyers+5 warriors). I found I was losing a lot due to my HQ getting clobbered thus giving up slay the warlord - or at least that didn't help matters with even number objective games. So I took an overlord as the HQ instead and stuck him in one of the scythes for added protection. I also swapped out one of the wraith units for a butt load of scarabs (2 bases can usually take out most vehicles).

I think the wraiths are going have a hard time of it. At least they'll be bullet magnets. Most of my games end with the wraiths almost extinct but I either hold or contest needed objectives starting turn 5 - and pray for the game to end

That's also happened in quite a few of my games. I am getting desperately pummeled but manage to win the game with last turn troop drops and then the game ending. Basically, I win through my philosophy of Positional Dominance (more details in my Pre-Game Analysis) and a little luck. Necrons are probably one of the very few armies that can still win despite some devastating losses.

To mitigate the Warlord factor, I give my D-lords Res Orbs. Those little pieces of wargear have won me quite a few games. They are my X-factor.

Theorius wrote:
by scrolling through the pictures i saw


the wraiths died coming in, only 1 dlord made it in and he died to the crisis suits in melee?

the riptides seemed to have trouble dropping the croissants cause they didnt die very quickly it seems (one riptide died as well)

It looks like tau lost by objectives but almost wiped the necrons from the board.

if that last picture was the end of the game that is!

Remember in the other thread when you said you ignored objectives to win games by tabling?.... This is why that strategy is bad. NS transport troops is seriously that ridiculous, doesn't take much skill IMO to pinpoint drop a scoring unit from a flier last turn. I'm not implying that Jim is anything but a good player, just iterating why necrons are so good right now. When everyone else can't go further then 6" even from open topped transports and get out, a 36" flier dropping troops without scatter is that broken for only 165pts troops included.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, come on dude, who scrolls through photo bucket and spoils the report!

The riptides will instant gib the wraiths and can bring down the fliers... oh wait you dont have any broadsides, skyrays, or skyfire units...?

SPOLIERS!
CMON MAN!

 Tomb King wrote:
The riptides will instant gib the wraiths and can bring down the fliers... oh wait you dont have any broadsides, skyrays, or skyfire units...?

the riptides all have skyfire

iGuy91 wrote:SPOLIERS!
CMON MAN!

lol, dont know the results was just saying.

Theorius wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
The riptides will instant gib the wraiths and can bring down the fliers... oh wait you dont have any broadsides, skyrays, or skyfire units...?

the riptides all have skyfire

If you have 18 wraiths and 4 flyers which takes priority of fire? Too much for one units to target.

 Tomb King wrote:

iGuy91 wrote:SPOLIERS!
CMON MAN!

lol, dont know the results was just saying.

Theorius wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
The riptides will instant gib the wraiths and can bring down the fliers... oh wait you dont have any broadsides, skyrays, or skyfire units...?

the riptides all have skyfire

If you have 18 wraiths and 4 flyers which takes priority of fire? Too much for one units to target.

well, they have interceptor and skyfire, so typically during jy2's turn when the come in he shoots the sms at them, then during his turn he shoots the burst at them (if they didnt die) or the wraiths based on how dangerous he finds any of them.

 jifel wrote:
I'm calling it a draw. Necrons get battered by shooting, but threat of wraiths keeps Tau from advancing till its too late. I think Tau take First Blood, and Warlord, and one objective, while Crons take one objective Warlord and linebreaker.

In that case, it's a win for the crons because the Tau Warlord (the Ethereal) gives off an additional VP if killed.

djn wrote:
I think this will hinge on the Tau turn 2 shooting, especially target priority, as jy2 will minimise the alpha strike damage. If they can take down two wraith squads including a lord (res orbs could be big) then have two/three layers of bubble wrap to absorb the last squad then they will be in good shape to focus on the flyers, barges and move out with the tides to contest whilst holding one objective. Would be good to see the board and objective placement before making a call.

There is no real LOS-blocking terrain. There are 3 objectives - 1 in the middle and 2 on my side. That is because I won the roll-off for placing objectives first and also the the roll to pick sides first.

anonymou5 wrote:
No, the game is designed with the possibility of uneven objectives on purpose. You need to develop an Army that has mobility, either mobile scoring or at least mobile contesting.

Edit: there is a lot I don't like about 6ed (notably random tables), but uneven objectives forces a new aspect of tactical thinking on what could easily be a gunline versus gunline edition.

Agreed. This encourages one to design more balanced armies that also need to take into account mobility.

Uneven objectives is just as important as random game lengths. Without random game lengths, necrons, eldar, dark eldar and any army with ultra-fast troops would dominate the game. Without random/uneven objectives, pure gunlines would dominate the game.

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:
I voted Necrons, they'll take a beating but are more equipped to win this particular mission (better mobility).

The riptide load-out seems odd to me in that it doesn't compliment the rest of the list very well. Switching one or two to ion accelerators would add some much needed range, AP2, and S8+. The Tau don't have a realistic answer to AV 13+ (hell even a decent amount of AV12 will probably give them fits) and if the Tau are clumped to make use of their Ethereal/Overwatch rules, the barges/arcing could do some serious damage.

I'm interested to see how much damage the tau gunline can put out against the wraiths though.

The HBC is a very versatile weapon. Think 3 assault cannons, but with better range and with the ability to ignore cover with some Markerlight help. Many people take a look at the high strength or lower AP of the Ion Accelerators and they automatically think it is a better weapon. IMO, volume-of-fire is what wins the day for Tau and the HBC gives you that in spades. Anyways, that's probably another topic for debate in the Tactica forum. Personally, I would go with a 2:1 ratio - 2 HBC's for every 1 Ion Accelerator. As for AT, I'd probably run 2 railheads.

Siphen wrote:
Nice pre-game analysis. What are your thoughts on the 4d6" moving, objective contesting Riptides?
My worry is that the Tau can take out all of your Wraiths and Lords by turn 3 or 4, then jump a couple of Riptides over to contest your objectives by turn 5 or 6. Even all the tesla in your army combined will struggle to bring down one Riptide.

The other issue I see is that, with no LOS blocking terrain, your Warriors will easily be wiped out if they try to grab an objective too soon. Say on turn 5 or turn 6, you disembark 2 units by an objective and the game goes on? There's no way they'll survive. How do you deal with that problem?

The 4D6" is good, though personally, I have yet to see a Tau player use it. Most of the time, they are over-charging their weapons instead and in this game, there is no shortage of targets. From wraiths to night scythes, his riptides should be doing a lot of shooting instead. Over-charging his HBC's also makes his intercepting fire that much more scary to me. If he doesn't, I'd probably alpha-strike his units on the turns my night scythes come in.

Warriors won't disembark until Turn 5. How you make them more survivable is by how you place the objectives. You want to place them as close to your deployment edge as possible. You also want to place them where your guys can get cover. In this game, I put them in ruins near my table edge so that my warriors could go-to-ground for 2+ cover if necessary.

And then you pray that the game ends.

 Tomb King wrote:
The riptides will instant gib the wraiths and can bring down the fliers... oh wait you dont have any broadsides, skyrays, or skyfire units...?

Riptides can't insta-gib the wraiths. Their shooting are only S6 in this game....unless you are talking about assault? Also, they have both skyfire and interceptor.

 Tomb King wrote:

iGuy91 wrote:SPOLIERS!
CMON MAN!

lol, dont know the results was just saying.

I don't believe he was refering to you with his post, TK.

 jifel wrote:
I'm calling it a draw. Necrons get battered by shooting, but threat of wraiths keeps Tau from advancing till its too late. I think Tau take First Blood, and Warlord, and one objective, while Crons take one objective Warlord and linebreaker.

You realize that would be a Necron win because of the ethereal point, right?

I think the Tau list is not as balanced as it could be. First I don't think three Riptides are necessary... More win versus balance. Second the army has very little to deal with AV14... It would really have a tough time versus two or more land raiders... That is probably not as big a deal versus your army but I think overall it's not a good thing. Third I'd find the points to mount the Farseer on a jetbike... That would open more options during most games. Fourth the army is very static... I think you will win simply because your Necron army is much more mobile just as you have pointed out earlier. I wouldn't count on the Riptides for a strong counter assault... They are basically jetpack monstrous creature gun platforms and that's it.

I do think it will be a great battle though and the Tau could definitely win. Looking forward to the batrep!

Necrons are going to get owned!

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Second the army has very little to deal with AV14... It would really have a tough time versus two or more land raiders... That is probably not as big a deal versus your army but I think overall it's not a good thing.

36 S6 rending shots actually has a fantastic chance of dealing with AV 14, and that's before you start accounting for marker lights.

An assault cannon is better than a lascannon for cracking AV 14. The 3 Riptides have essentially 9 assault cannons between them.

I still think as JY2 put it, the necron positional dominance will reign supreme. I think necrons take it in a close one. Just a lot of viable threats. 3 anni barges firing all game is going to do work staying at 30ish inch range with them just arcing all over the place.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Second the army has very little to deal with AV14... It would really have a tough time versus two or more land raiders... That is probably not as big a deal versus your army but I think overall it's not a good thing.

36 S6 rending shots actually has a fantastic chance of dealing with AV 14, and that's before you start accounting for marker lights.

An assault cannon is better than a lascannon for cracking AV 14. The 3 Riptides have essentially 9 assault cannons between them.

thats a good point, since 6 shots hit (without markerlights, but lets say they get bs 5 from marker so 9-10 hit, so you will get 1-2 glances/pens vs a landraider per riptide that gets nova for the burst, not bad!

Turn 1 up!





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think the Tau list is not as balanced as it could be. First I don't think three Riptides are necessary... More win versus balance. Second the army has very little to deal with AV14... It would really have a tough time versus two or more land raiders... That is probably not as big a deal versus your army but I think overall it's not a good thing. Third I'd find the points to mount the Farseer on a jetbike... That would open more options during most games. Fourth the army is very static... I think you will win simply because your Necron army is much more mobile just as you have pointed out earlier. I wouldn't count on the Riptides for a strong counter assault... They are basically jetpack monstrous creature gun platforms and that's it.

I do think it will be a great battle though and the Tau could definitely win. Looking forward to the batrep!

It may not be necessary to take 3 Riptides....but they are good to have. Just like I don't feel that 3 heldrakes is necessary in a CSM army, but people still run them anyways. Highly efficient units tend to get spammed by the more competitive players (as long as they don't have problems against spam-armies).

AV14 is over-rated. Most of my armies don't really deal with AV14 that well. Necrons, tyranids, daemons....they all have to rely on assault to kill AV14. Yet, all of them are good enough to win tournaments IMO (well, maybe except for my daemons). Nowadays, you have to worry more about AV13 as that is much more prevalent. The Tau have enough tools to deal with 1 or perhaps even 2 AV14 vehicles and IMO, that is good enough.

I like the farseer on a jetbike, but only if the points allowed. To me, the jetbike is a secondary upgrade that is good to have, but not a necessity.

Static is a problem with this army. Actually, it will be a problem with most Tau armies. My opponent can probably do some work on his list to improve his mobility slightly. However, mainly he's going to need to adjust his tactics. Actually, most Tau players in general will have to adjust their tactics if they want to be able to beat top tournament armies run by good generals.

bodazoka wrote:
Necrons are going to get owned!

Ah....you have much confidence in my ability, young one.

 Janthkin wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Second the army has very little to deal with AV14... It would really have a tough time versus two or more land raiders... That is probably not as big a deal versus your army but I think overall it's not a good thing.

36 S6 rending shots actually has a fantastic chance of dealing with AV 14, and that's before you start accounting for marker lights.

An assault cannon is better than a lascannon for cracking AV 14. The 3 Riptides have essentially 9 assault cannons between them.

Right. Over-charged HBC's can be used to deal with AV14. That is why it is such a versatile weapon.

Ouch. That was a veryyy rough turn 1.
Were his saves poor? Just a ton of wounds?
Damn.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Ouch. That was a veryyy rough turn 1.
Were his saves poor? Just a ton of wounds?
Damn.

My saves were maybe a little below average but not exceedingly bad. What killed me were all those buffs. Markerlights to essentially make his entire army BS5 or better, both his troops and his riptides. Markerlights really amplify the power of the Tau and is the secret to what makes their shooting so effective.

The crucial roll I needed to make was for my Warlord getting back up. Unfortunately, I didn't.

This is going to be a long game.

The equalizing factor will be if your flyers come in force, and they survive long enough to drop their cargo on T4/5 to claim objectives. The Tau will eat those french pastries if they come in piecemeal, and losing your warlord and unit of wraiths definitely hurt. Also a big thing that happened as well was your shooting failed to kill the ethereal, and if the tau shooting works like it should, you could be pinned and losing lots of guys.

Turn 1 tau!!!

ok pack it up, nothing to see here....tau won turn 1 game is over!!!

 jy2 wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
Necrons are going to get owned!

Ah....you have much confidence in my ability, young one.

haha definitely not a comment on your ability master!

I just have 0 faith in wraithwing against Tau.

3 x AV13 ghost arks with kitted out OL 's 3 x AB 's and a DS monolith! + fruit is the answer for Tau IMO.

The funny thing is, that the Riptides haven't really contributed much, compared to the Firewarrior+Ethereal.

I still have faith in JY2, he's come back from Worse!

Jesus H Creed, remind me never to take Wraiths against Tau!
O_O

 jy2 wrote:

 jifel wrote:
I'm calling it a draw. Necrons get battered by shooting, but threat of wraiths keeps Tau from advancing till its too late. I think Tau take First Blood, and Warlord, and one objective, while Crons take one objective Warlord and linebreaker.

In that case, it's a win for the crons because the Tau Warlord (the Ethereal) gives off an additional VP if killed.

Excellent point. I may still call it a draw, I'm iffy on if you can get linebreaker... I think you'll be in position for a turn 5 narrow win, that'll go down to a draw after a turn 6 where linebreaking unit gets evaporated.

Edit: Looking at whats popular for Tau, I'm thinking the only thing with a chance is a MASSIVE Drop Pod army, or for Nids a crap ton of biovores to hide far away and out of LoS. I think I'm going to start taking two units, just because of Tau.

 jifel wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 jifel wrote:
I'm calling it a draw. Necrons get battered by shooting, but threat of wraiths keeps Tau from advancing till its too late. I think Tau take First Blood, and Warlord, and one objective, while Crons take one objective Warlord and linebreaker.

In that case, it's a win for the crons because the Tau Warlord (the Ethereal) gives off an additional VP if killed.

Excellent point. I may still call it a draw, I'm iffy on if you can get linebreaker... I think you'll be in position for a turn 5 narrow win, that'll go down to a draw after a turn 6 where linebreaking unit gets evaporated.

Edit: Looking at whats popular for Tau, I'm thinking the only thing with a chance is a MASSIVE Drop Pod army, or for Nids a crap ton of biovores to hide far away and out of LoS. I think I'm going to start taking two units, just because of Tau.

Or a 2+ re-rollable Invul on some FMC!

 skoffs wrote:
Jesus H Creed, remind me never to take Wraiths against Tau!
O_O

Wraiths are very good against many tau lists, it is just not very good against this particular tau list. Most tau lists have smaller quantity of fire and more quality of fire, (s7/8 ap2/1 shots that do more damage) This list has a ton of shots but they are all s5/6 ap5/4. This list shines against wraith 3++ saves, where a plasma rifle heavy list would have trouble.

The tau player has nothing to shoot at those annihilation barges. Last turn he should have started moving forward. His only real hope is to either get behind the barges or do a crushing attack with the riptides. Without those wraiths tau can start moving its firewarriors out. If they can just get a riptide to sit on every objective and a unit of warriors to claim on of the objectives I think they will have this one in the bag.

 Tomb King wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 jifel wrote:
I'm calling it a draw. Necrons get battered by shooting, but threat of wraiths keeps Tau from advancing till its too late. I think Tau take First Blood, and Warlord, and one objective, while Crons take one objective Warlord and linebreaker.

In that case, it's a win for the crons because the Tau Warlord (the Ethereal) gives off an additional VP if killed.

Excellent point. I may still call it a draw, I'm iffy on if you can get linebreaker... I think you'll be in position for a turn 5 narrow win, that'll go down to a draw after a turn 6 where linebreaking unit gets evaporated.

Edit: Looking at whats popular for Tau, I'm thinking the only thing with a chance is a MASSIVE Drop Pod army, or for Nids a crap ton of biovores to hide far away and out of LoS. I think I'm going to start taking two units, just because of Tau.

Or a 2+ re-rollable Invul on some FMC!

Or Heavy Artillery Batteries with Prescience supported by Sabres (so ridiculous)

I do think you did bad deployment, you should not have gone to him, but hide as a best as possible and go outside his 30 range or los from the bit of terrain.

Just running open field won't work... if you had waited untill turn 2 when flyers came on then you can try to slither forward with the help of the flyers and presenting to much targets!

Anyhow you are not forcing him to commit. Now he picks you off and he will then comit when he has full advantage.

 lambsandlions wrote:
The tau player has nothing to shoot at those annihilation barges. Last turn he should have started moving forward. His only real hope is to either get behind the barges or do a crushing attack with the riptides. Without those wraiths tau can start moving its firewarriors out. If they can just get a riptide to sit on every objective and a unit of warriors to claim on of the objectives I think they will have this one in the bag.

Agreed.

Those over charged rip tides will move 4D6 inches to contest objectives around turn 4ish after using smash to punch through the AB's