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anonymou5 wrote:

shogun wrote:

Theorius wrote:
by scrolling through the pictures i saw


the wraiths died coming in, only 1 dlord made it in and he died to the crisis suits in melee?

the riptides seemed to have trouble dropping the croissants cause they didnt die very quickly it seems (one riptide died as well)

It looks like tau lost by objectives but almost wiped the necrons from the board.

if that last picture was the end of the game that is!

Also scrolled down the pictures. Really dont like the uneven objectives setup. If tau got to place 2 out of 3 objectives the won the game. Thats why my buddy and I always play with even objectives or place the third in the middle of the field.

No, the game is designed with the possibility of uneven objectives on purpose. You need to develop an Army that has mobility, either mobile scoring or at least mobile contesting.

Edit: there is a lot I don't like about 6ed (notably random tables), but uneven objectives forces a new aspect of tactical thinking on what could easily be a gunline versus gunline edition.

The fact that you need mobility doesn't change the fact that the player with 2 objectives has to big of an advantage. You can simply put the objectives 6 inch from your table edge and its an uphill battle for the other player with only one objective. What if Tau got 2 objectives in this battle report? Then the don't have to move at all and need even less mobility. So theirs no tactical thinking needed. If that third objective was placed in the middle of the field then it would be more exciting because the Necron need to get that objective despite all the tau shooting and also the tau army need to get out of their defence line to claim it. If the Necron army really wanted to win the could dig in and let the warriors claim both objectives. The could even attach a Necron Lord to both warriors units to take hits and to make sure the survive.

shogun wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

shogun wrote:

Theorius wrote:
by scrolling through the pictures i saw


the wraiths died coming in, only 1 dlord made it in and he died to the crisis suits in melee?

the riptides seemed to have trouble dropping the croissants cause they didnt die very quickly it seems (one riptide died as well)

It looks like tau lost by objectives but almost wiped the necrons from the board.

if that last picture was the end of the game that is!

Also scrolled down the pictures. Really dont like the uneven objectives setup. If tau got to place 2 out of 3 objectives the won the game. Thats why my buddy and I always play with even objectives or place the third in the middle of the field.

No, the game is designed with the possibility of uneven objectives on purpose. You need to develop an Army that has mobility, either mobile scoring or at least mobile contesting.

Edit: there is a lot I don't like about 6ed (notably random tables), but uneven objectives forces a new aspect of tactical thinking on what could easily be a gunline versus gunline edition.

The fact that you need mobility doesn't change the fact that the player with 2 objectives has to big of an advantage. You can simply put the objectives 6 inch from your table edge and its an uphill battle for the other player with only one objective. What if Tau got 2 objectives in this battle report? Then the don't have to move at all and need even less mobility. So theirs no tactical thinking needed. If that third objective was placed in the middle of the field then it would be more exciting because the Necron need to get that objective despite all the tau shooting and also the tau army need to get out of their defence line to claim it. If the Necron army really wanted to win the could dig in and let the warriors claim both objectives. The could even attach a Necron Lord to both warriors units to take hits and to make sure the survive.

we play on 4x6 tables with big armies and to keep things interesting and fun every missions cant be made so stale that it is "fair" in all cases. I personally think they are still to tame. Want to shake up the meta? steal some of the flames of war missions like, hold the line where half your force has to go in delayed reserves meaning you cant even roll to have them appear until turn 3 and you do it with the rules of turn 1.

seriously, check out flames of war missions, they are exciting and fun and I love every one of them.

Think of it this way. The player who has the most objectives on his side (excluding orks becuase what ork stays behind to hold objectives?) will be at a disadvantage mobility wise, while the person with fewer objectives is at an advantage as to all he needs is that one objective to be in the lead.

Reason for person with more objectives is at a disadvantage is because they have to now spread their forces even more thinly than they might have wanted too, which means less troops or things in the way to stop the opponent from bum rushing an objective so that the points are in his favor. Of course this is without knowing army lists and whatnot and if the mission was Big guns never tire, then obviously my entire statement is out the window since it is easy to control an objective with a heavy.

The person with fewer objectives is at an advantage now because like I mentioned last time, they now have +1 more objectives for you to choose from. Whether you want to split the forces and go two at a time or just go after one to secure that victory is generals choice, but even if it was gun line vs gun line that means more choices to lob shells to provide cover for your precious troops running up or jsut to force your opponent to shift hiself after he has no one left on an objective and the game is now even.

nevermind, full derp mode.

Theorius wrote:


basic math hammer - burst cannon 12 burst cannons hit 6 times (2 gets hot), doing 2 glances/pens (rending could be nice?) and 4 sms do 1.5 ---total of 3.5 (with less chance of pens vs glances)

ion accelerator - 3 shots doing .75 and 8 sms missiles will get 3 glances/pens - means 3.75 glances/pens (with WAY higher chance of pens)

Your mathhammer is very off becasue you think SMS are s7...they are s5 the weaker variety. You are mistaking them with high yield missile pods. While I also prefer the Ion accelerator, The burst cannon is definately a better option vs anything flying. The burst cannon also benifits better from markerlights. Another thing to consider is that hes rerolling the failed wounds with doom for double rend chance. Yeah sounds pretty optomized to me.

Mark kelly wrote:
The overcharged burstcannon is 18 shoots its 12 or normal all at STR 6

well thats wrong... Do you even have the codex? maybe you should read the weapon profile before you post about it.

I think you screwed up deployment. You should have refused flank out of range of half his army at least. :/

urza8188 wrote:

Theorius wrote:


basic math hammer - burst cannon 12 burst cannons hit 6 times (2 gets hot), doing 2 glances/pens (rending could be nice?) and 4 sms do 1.5 ---total of 3.5 (with less chance of pens vs glances)

ion accelerator - 3 shots doing .75 and 8 sms missiles will get 3 glances/pens - means 3.75 glances/pens (with WAY higher chance of pens)

Your mathhammer is very off becasue you think SMS are s7...they are s5 the weaker variety. You are mistaking them with high yield missile pods. While I also prefer the Ion accelerator, The burst cannon is definately a better option vs anything flying. The burst cannon also benifits better from markerlights. Another thing to consider is that hes rerolling the failed wounds with doom for double rend chance. Yeah sounds pretty optomized to me.

Good grief your right I brain farted them to strength 7....

I also didn't think about fortune, it is sounding more and more like a good idea!

Battle report completed!


Post-game Analysis coming out later.

Awesome JY2! Great way to pull a (Crushing!) Victory from defeat.

I might have missed this somewhere earlier in your report (and if so, I apologize), but did you place objectives before you rolled off to choose table-halves? Or did your opponent choose to place his only objective in the middle of the battlefield? Either way, excellent report so far, as always!

It looks like the new Tau codex has made them even better at what they do well (standing back and shooting everything), and has done nothing to address their glaring weaknesses (troop mobility and objective denial). I think they will have to lean heavily on allies to be truly competitive, since you can't realistically expect to table every opponent.

mmm. a very static gunline. think competitive tau need some more mobile scoring to maintain high level competitiveness.
it really shows how the objectives wins the games.
still, nice job by JY to pull out a win, from that devastating firepower.

 Sasori wrote:
Awesome JY2! Great way to pull a (Crushing!) Victory from defeat.

Thanks. I didn't think I could do it, but I got a little lucky in the end.

Man, this game reminds me of some of the battles against Frankie (against his Harliestar and his Nurgle Marines) where he was beating my armies (crons against his Nurgle marines, daemons in against his Harliestar) to a pulp. However, I never lost sight of the Mission and won because I was rolling so poorly in our games (which transfered to my rolling for the End Game ). Had those games continued, he'd probably have tabled me as well!

I felt bad for my opponent though. He was in total disbelief at the end of the game.

hilleraj wrote:
I might have missed this somewhere earlier in your report (and if so, I apologize), but did you place objectives before you rolled off to choose table-halves? Or did your opponent choose to place his only objective in the middle of the battlefield? Either way, excellent report so far, as always!

It looks like the new Tau codex has made them even better at what they do well (standing back and shooting everything), and has done nothing to address their glaring weaknesses (troop mobility and objective denial). I think they will have to lean heavily on allies to be truly competitive, since you can't realistically expect to table every opponent.

We actually made a mistake here. We rolled for table halves first because we forgot about the objectives. After picking table halves, we then remembered about the objectives and rolled for that. I then asked him if he wanted to re-roll for table halves and he said that it was ok. We could keep it as is.

He did take me by surprise when he placed his objective in the middle of the table. I guess he was planning for his guardian jetbikes to contest one of my objectives in the end.

Actually, I feel that the Tau are fine as they are. People just need to change their mentality with regards to how to play them. With the riptides, there is no reason why he shouldn't be pushing them forwards aggressively, especially after he dealt with my wraiths. I think Tau players are just overly cautious and need to re-evaluate their tactics. It's still early and they will improve over time.

Wow despite the win, this report shows how the tau are gonna start to really put a crimp in the dominance of the 'crons. Still great battle with some good and bad luck on both sides. I wonder how this tau list would have done if you had an allied chaos detachment with a helldrake and mace prince.

Deshkar wrote:
mmm. a very static gunline. think competitive tau need some more mobile scoring to maintain high level competitiveness.
it really shows how the objectives wins the games.
still, nice job by JY to pull out a win, from that devastating firepower.

If they don't take allies, then they will have to rely on some kroots or perhaps even a warfish/devilfish. If I were playing his army, I'd probably swap out 1 unit of fire warriors and some change for 2 units of kroots. Outflanking kroots gives the army decent mobility. Either that or take 2 units of guardian jetbikes for his eldar allies.

Chancetragedy wrote:
Wow despite the win, this report shows how the tau are gonna start to really put a crimp in the dominance of the 'crons. Still great battle with some good and bad luck on both sides. I wonder how this tau list would have done if you had an allied chaos detachment with a helldrake and mace prince.

Tau will put a crimp in almost every army. They are just that good IMO. If you get someone like Yakface, SabrX or Gus (awesome Tau players in our area) running a triple riptide Tau list, I can honestly see them winning tournaments. The new Tau codex is very strong.

They don't care about 1 heldrake and daemon prince. My opponent tells me he's got no problems against heldrakes. He's also beaten my 4 FMC daemon list quite handily.

Jy2, thank you as ever for your battle reports. When I check the battle report list every few days, I always know that yours will be a thumping good read. Good pictures, great looking armies, detailed assessments of movements.

The Tau player really should have been advancing by turn 2. By his Turn 2 shooting he had already neutered your wraiths. Moving forward could have easily achieved the middle objective and given him more firepower against the ones in the back, perhaps even throwing a riptide at them to contest.

I think he was a good player, but too cautious. That's why I think orcs are the perfect ally for Tau; they charge right up the field to kill what they can (and usually die) while the Tau follow up behind them, which eliminates their desire to just sit in the back.

Crushing Victory for the 'Crons?? No bloody way I was expecting that after that cataclysmic first turn. Bravo sir

bodazoka wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
Necrons are going to get owned!

Ah....you have much confidence in my ability, young one.

haha definitely not a comment on your ability master!

I just have 0 faith in wraithwing against Tau.

3 x AV13 ghost arks with kitted out OL 's 3 x AB 's and a DS monolith! + fruit is the answer for Tau IMO.

Wraithwing is doable. They just need some LOS-blocking terrain. If I had that in this game, I have no doubt that I should be able to get them into assault.

But Necron AV13-spam is definitely a viable army against the Tau....as long as they don't go fusion-heavy and/or take triple-railheads with them.

 Sasori wrote:
The funny thing is, that the Riptides haven't really contributed much, compared to the Firewarrior+Ethereal.

I still have faith in JY2, he's come back from Worse!

They are actually doing alright. It was a team effort to take down my wraiths. The only irony is that his riptides have been doing much more damage to themselves than my army has.

 jifel wrote:

Excellent point. I may still call it a draw, I'm iffy on if you can get linebreaker... I think you'll be in position for a turn 5 narrow win, that'll go down to a draw after a turn 6 where linebreaking unit gets evaporated.

Edit: Looking at whats popular for Tau, I'm thinking the only thing with a chance is a MASSIVE Drop Pod army, or for Nids a crap ton of biovores to hide far away and out of LoS. I think I'm going to start taking two units, just because of Tau.

There are a number of builds that may give Tau a problem, and it usually involves fast armies or lots of templates. Triple-thunderfire SM lists, MTO daemons with 2++ or 2++ re-rollable's,
blast-heavy IG, biovore-nids, other Tau lists, AV13-spam (BA or necrons), land raider-spam....all these armies can potentially give the Tau problems.

 lambsandlions wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Jesus H Creed, remind me never to take Wraiths against Tau!
O_O

Wraiths are very good against many tau lists, it is just not very good against this particular tau list. Most tau lists have smaller quantity of fire and more quality of fire, (s7/8 ap2/1 shots that do more damage) This list has a ton of shots but they are all s5/6 ap5/4. This list shines against wraith 3++ saves, where a plasma rifle heavy list would have trouble.

The tau player has nothing to shoot at those annihilation barges. Last turn he should have started moving forward. His only real hope is to either get behind the barges or do a crushing attack with the riptides. Without those wraiths tau can start moving its firewarriors out. If they can just get a riptide to sit on every objective and a unit of warriors to claim on of the objectives I think they will have this one in the bag.

Right. What works best against wraiths are volume-of-fire/attacks. That is one of their bigger weaknesses and that is also one of the Tau's biggest strengths.

Yeah, he should have played more aggressively much earlier. That is something most Tau players are going to have to get used to. Static armies just don't cut it, you need to move your guys and do it early.

Wow! how many wounds did he do to himself with novacharge fails and gets hot! wowza!!

sounds like you got super lucky jy2 (not to down play your positional dominiance which worked out well) just the rolls and finished turn 5, i also agree that he should have moved out his troops/suits way sooner once he had handled the wraiths.

Wow, amazing steal there. Your opponent probably did a weapons-grade facepalm when you rolled that 2 to end the game.

More or less as predicted. You kept his eye off the ball for long enough that all he had were long shots at the end. Realistically I think he'd need 2 more turns to pull out a win, your troops all look to be outside of markerlight range and I don't see him shooting down all 4 of your troop units with 2+ cover (in fact I think only the Riptide has range to your 2 units on the right, and a decent chunk of his FW look out of range of all of your troops). He might be able to tie objectives in one turn though

Not a fan of his move with the jetbikes. Unless he genuinely didn't know that you'd be gunning for them I don't understand that one. Putting them 18" in front of your two scythes would've been a better play in my opinion. Then if you wanted to shoot them you'd have to disembark warriors early (and in front of a riptide), or divert another scythe to that side of the table. As it was though he didn't force you to make any kind of a decision.

DSing one or both of his Commander/bodyguards probably would have helped him out a lot in this game too. I'm not sure how much damage they did to your wraiths, but them DSed near the right objective would've been hard for you to deal with. Is there a reason his ethereal was his warlord and not the T5, 2+ save, 4 wound guy? I'm also not sure their weapons compliment the rest of the list very well, I'd be more inclined to go 2 fusion on each, with puretide and target lock on the commander.

I also think he was overly timid with the riptides. He seemed to jump back a lot when there wasn't really a reason to (perhaps falling prey to the "I have this awesome ability so I'm gonna use it" mindset). Specifically I'm talking about the 2 in middle. Looking at how much damage he did to your wraiths T1 he could have very comfortably left them at the front of his DZ and positioned himself much better to contest with them later in the game (same thing on T2 only now there's quite literally no reason not to press forward since your wraiths are dead and your barges are all in range already).

Bugs_N_Orks wrote:
More or less as predicted. You kept his eye off the ball for long enough that all he had were long shots at the end. Realistically I think he'd need 2 more turns to pull out a win, your troops all look to be outside of markerlight range and I don't see him shooting down all 4 of your troop units with 2+ cover (in fact I think only the Riptide has range to your 2 units on the right, and a decent chunk of his FW look out of range of all of your troops). He might be able to tie objectives in one turn though

Not a fan of his move with the jetbikes. Unless he genuinely didn't know that you'd be gunning for them I don't understand that one. Putting them 18" in front of your two scythes would've been a better play in my opinion. Then if you wanted to shoot them you'd have to disembark warriors early (and in front of a riptide), or divert another scythe to that side of the table. As it was though he didn't force you to make any kind of a decision.

DSing one or both of his Commander/bodyguards probably would have helped him out a lot in this game too. I'm not sure how much damage they did to your wraiths, but them DSed near the right objective would've been hard for you to deal with. Is there a reason his ethereal was his warlord and not the T5, 2+ save, 4 wound guy? I'm also not sure their weapons compliment the rest of the list very well, I'd be more inclined to go 2 fusion on each, with puretide and target lock on the commander.

I also think he was overly timid with the riptides. He seemed to jump back a lot when there wasn't really a reason to (perhaps falling prey to the "I have this awesome ability so I'm gonna use it" mindset). Specifically I'm talking about the 2 in middle. Looking at how much damage he did to your wraiths T1 he could have very comfortably left them at the front of his DZ and positioned himself much better to contest with them later in the game (same thing on T2 only now there's quite literally no reason not to press forward since your wraiths are dead and your barges are all in range already).

i agree, but hind sight being waht it is we can commentate all we want when we were not in the heat of battle!!!

This bat rep has inspired me to trust in my reserves...if they come on before turn 4 that is .

On another note I never knew pathfinders were that effective? What did marker lights do that wiped out that many of your wraiths?

They probably boosted all those 2-3shot firewarriors to BS 5, they could barely miss.
Still, the wraiths served their purpose. As opposed to wrecking ball, they were a distraction

kinda the only units that were target able anyways lol.

POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Wow....I got beaten up pretty badly. I knew Tau firepower was good, but even I didn't expect him to wipe out all my wraiths and 2 HQ's in 2.5 turns of shooting. Normally, my wraiths are fairly resilient but in this game, I just wasn't making my saves. I was not able to stop his advancement like I had originally planned, at least not with my wraiths. However, I did manage to throw enough distractions at him to make him forget about the objectives, at least until it was too late for him. You really have to pay attention to the missions when you are facing the crons. They can get to the objectives at will, whereas most armies need to plan for it and "keep their eyes on the ball". That is one of the major strengths of the necrons - they play the Movement phase like no other can.

To be fair, I don't believe my opponent has much, if any, experience against a competitive necron army. Most of the guys at our LGS don't really run necron flyers and the ones who do (i.e. me, Janthkin, Ministry) are actually playing other armies currently. Thus, I don't know if he has any real exposure to the necron flyers. It's like my 1st necron battle against Grant's seer council deldar. He really had no idea as to the "reach" of my flyers. The same thing happened here. My opponent had no idea about the reach of my night scythes and I made him pay with his guardian jetbikes. Also, had he not destroyed my immobilized night scythe, I wouldn't have been able to get them onto an objective (or near the objective). He will get better as he plays more against necron flyers, but for this game, I had the element of surprise.

In any case, my opponent should have won this game, but some tactical mistakes cost him. Where did he go wrong?

1. He didn't play aggressive enough with his army. As most people pointed out, he should have advanced them much earlier. I attribute this to the over-cautiousness that is most Tau players. It may also be due to a lack of experience. I'm sure he will improve over time with regards to when to start mobilizing his units.

2. He was too enamored with trying to shoot down my flyers. My flyers were actually a better "distraction" unit in this game than my wraiths. So every turn, he was trying to over-charge his guns when he probably should have went for the 4D6" jump in the last couple of turns for his riptides.

3. He didn't spread out his riptides enough. This allowed my flyers to come in unmolested. It did negate a turn of shooting for them, but overall, I think he was too focused on trying to take them out to really see the threat that they presented to the objectives. In order words, he was too focused on trying to shoot them down that he forgot to actually move towards my objectives. Maybe he just wasn't concerned because he thought he could shoot them all down? I can't say for sure.

4. He under-estimated the "reach" of my scythes and paid for it with his jetbikes.

5. He didn't move his pathfinders at all. If he had done that, they might have been in range to markerlight my warriors in the end. That would have meant no cover for them. Instead, my warriors were beyond the reach of his pathfinders.


Overall, my opponent played well, but not well enough. He could have and should have easily beaten my crons this game, but a few tactical errors and unfamiliarity with my army cost him the game. Well, that....and a little bit of luck on my part (i.e. the game ending when I needed it to). My philosophy of Positional Dominance worked, but not really in the way I intended. My wraiths were not able to stop his advancement, however, I was able to distract him long enough to secure the victory.


Tau MVP: Fire Warriors - It's close between all 4 of his units - fire warriors, riptides, commander's unit and pathfinders. Pathfinders did make his shooting much deadlier. Riptides help to take out wraiths, flyers and 1 annihilation barge. The commander and his unit took out 1 AB, the destroyer lord and some wraiths. However, I'd give it to his warriors just because their shooting did the majority of the damage.

Tau Runner-Up: Riptides - Not only did they have a hand in hurting all my units - the wraiths, AB and flyers - but they also served to restrict the movement of my flyers. They did a respectable amount of damage and affected the way I played, forcing me to play much more conservatively with my flyers than I normally do. If only 1 had made it to one of my objectives to contest, I would have hands-down given them the MVP award for the Tau.

Necron MVP: Night Scythes - They were clutch in this game. They survived a huge amount of firepower, helped to finish off 1 riptide, the guardian jetbikes and the ionhead (hammerhead with Ion Cannon). They also broke the fire warriors on his objective, thus giving my crons the Crushing Victory, as well as dropping off the troops for the victory.

Necron Runner-Up: Riptides - LOL! These guys did more damage to themselves than my necrons did! I believed I only did 1W to his riptides. He did 11-12W to himself from failed over-charges and overheating. Can you believe he killed off an entire Riptide (that's 5W!) by himself?!? Definitely some bad rolling for the riptides, but that's probably the only bad dice he had in this game.

Markerlights are heavy so if he moved them up they would of been snap firing. It is why scouting with them can help with that.

wow... not to put you down or anything but that is just so maddening! To lost after such a great start, and knowing it was all cause you had made such terrible tactical mistakes? Thats got to hurt.

If the objects had been closer to his line, if he had gotten two objectives on his side rather then you then he would have won this one.

Well played on your spot but that is a heartbreaking end for your opponent I am sure. Those Riptides sucked so bad this game, I mean, they did do stuff but they pretty much killed themselves!

I said triple Ripetide is overrated and I think this report proved just that - too much moar win in lieu of balance.

I think jy2 made some bad decisions in the beginning so it all evens out. You've really got to make the right calls down the line when the game is on the line. Gambling for the game to end on turn 5 was the right choice - I would have done the same. I play Necrons too and am happy to see that the flyers were so strong... I learned a lot in that regard reading this report.

I'd love to see a rematch some time.

I tip my hat too you good sir! I didnt think you had a chance just looking at the army lists!!

Spot on about the Tau players needing to change there game play now they have something they can be aggressive with! the Riptides!!

I was very surprised that he didn't 4D6 move towards your objectives to contest!

I played a Tau player a few days ago with 3 x ghost arks and the only thing I was worried about was the 2 x Str10 smash attacks from the rip tide. My Tau opponent only thought to charge me when I layed out the math hammer for him, before that charging into combat never entered his mind!

I think it is more of a example of a good tactical player versus one not so good playing the mission is more important then playing a game in regards to winning well done JY2