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jcrone2 wrote:
lots of words.

So long as you find value in what it is you have purchased, you will not find the cost aborrent.

Conversely, if you find the cost to be greater than your level of enjoyment, you will find the prices difficult to swallow.


The consensus, here at least, appears to be the latter.

jcrone2 wrote:
So, before you blast, let me clarify.
I have been taking a look comparing models from different places, and while GW prices seem high to me initially, after some consideration they don't seem that bad as a whole.
Thoughts?
Lets not talk about forge world.

1. Australia
2. From here, Forge World is cheaper than regular GW.

/thread

jcrone2 wrote:
So, before you blast, let me clarify.

I have been taking a look comparing models from different places, and while GW prices seem high to me initially, after some consideration they don't seem that bad as a whole.

std troops
-Lets take a simple box of space marines for example...37.50...call it 40 bucks...is $4/per model...

-Compare to mantic enforcers...you get them at 2.30/model..almost half the price...

-Now compare them to Dark potential...standard unit box of 7 is 60 bucks... 8.60/model!!

------>When you factor in the quality vs cost factor...does not seem too bad...maybe I'm wrong. Lets continue.



Large size
GW model, say hive tyrant is around $50....land raider at $75......so..................................$50-75

-take on of the similar sized dragons off of reapers site and he is anywhere between $40-70....

-Banelegion banebeast Ophius, Gorgon Lord the war store................................. .............. $50

-Although I cannot speak for the pathfinder quality, I know GWs models are very nice.

Single std size models

Here I will say theyre gak cra because they can be wanting you to pay $15-20 for a single std size model just because he is 'speshal' or something........not even worth comparison.

Also, a couple of the certain units they have seem high based on lower number need in an army,,,,,,as if they take advantage of unit power to jack price....(terminators at $10 a piece) and then turn around and not give the opposite courtesy (such as making gaunts a little cheaper because you need more)

So I make the challenge that the overwhelming thought that GW products, while a little pricey, are not as bad as they seem. The condition that changes the opinion is that people want giant armies, in which to play the games, which makes sense. So it's not that their product is too crazy overpriced....but that the price of a collection.....army certainly adds up.


Thoughts?


Lets not talk about forge world.

i dont know how long you have been in the hobby so i'll presume you are new. that land raider you used as an example has not changed in is basic form since it was released in its current verion. Yes they added variants which is really only swapping 2 sprues, the hull has not changed. In fact, other than the new box art they do for each edition the CSM land raider is still exactly the same from when it was released in 3rd Edition and it was $45 back then. So how do you explain a $30 price increase on a plastic model?

Third edition was a while back...

Inflation?

Seriously though, I dont think GWs prices are abdolutely awful, but they could be cheaper.

I think in the long run they would make more if they dropped the price a little though, as it stands I only use ebay and discounters, and that would not be the case if they dropped the price a tad, they just dont seem to want to meet us halfway!

I think the main reason why people complain about the prices isn't so much because the models are far more expensive than other companies (which they aren't really, compared to PP or something), it's how many you need. Like selling 10 orc boys in a box. You'll need loads of them. You may not need 10 units of Druids of Orboros, however.

I think these 2 products sum things up pretty well.

GW: 10 Plastic Catachan infantry for £18 (£1.80/each), positively ancient sculpt (mid 90's?) - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440249a&prodId=prod2080005

Warlord Games: 40 Plastic soviet infantry (what the IG are modelled on) for £28 (70p each, or 39% the cost of the Catachans), brand new sculpts (only launched this year) - http://www.warlordgames.com/store/bolt-action/soviet-army/soviet-infantry-plastic-box-set.html

Granted the Warlord mini's are true 28mm scale and GW's are heroic (to the point they are bigger than marines), but if the smaller company can undercut GW by 2.7 times on a product that paid off it's mould costs at least a decade ago, then GW must be charging much more than they need to.

Basic infantry boxes tend to be alright. Vendettas are way too expensive though, as are most individual characters.

Transports don't *seem* expensive to me until I remember how few points they cost. There is something galling about paying £22 for a 35 point rhino.

Plastic sells for about $1 for 4 lbs, average weight of a plastic 28mm mini is less than .5oz

There's obviously additional production costs involved and they of course need to make a profit, but it's dirt cheap for GW to make that $50 box o' terminators.


I look at kits that Tamiya and Testors can put out, their tanks are often comperable in size with better detail and a higher parts count for a fraction of the price. I still buy their stuff every now and then but yeah GW is expensive.

jcrone2 wrote:
So, before you blast, let me clarify.

I have been taking a look comparing models from different places, and while GW prices seem high to me initially, after some consideration they don't seem that bad as a whole.

std troops
-Lets take a simple box of space marines for example...37.50...call it 40 bucks...is $4/per model...

-Compare to mantic enforcers...you get them at 2.30/model..almost half the price...

-Now compare them to Dark potential...standard unit box of 7 is 60 bucks... 8.60/model!!

------>When you factor in the quality vs cost factor...does not seem too bad...maybe I'm wrong.

Oh, you are.

You cannot compare different game genres. Dark Potential is a skirmish game. The number of models required is a small percentage of the number of models required to play WH40K. So throw out the DP comparison and you are left with mantic coming in at half the cost.

Now, throw in the Dream Forge infantry, and we cement that GW figures are double the cost they should be.

And they have raised the prices far beyond inflation every summer for the past three years and will likely do it again this year. It is insane.

I can see the point a bit.

Our Australian and Japanese friends I can appreciate their pain.

I hate looking at the WD and comparing the HUGE difference in cost of USA vs. Canada cost. Our dollar has been higher and they can charge as much as 20% more? I have ordered from the US and got models cheaper than locally.

**edit**
I must add that is including shipping and any other incidental costs...

I have 2 issues with GW's pricing model.

1. They increase the prices every year over inflation even when the entire worlds economy was going down.

2. Some models pricing makes no sense other than "the rule of cool". To wit the Hell turkey is roughly the same size and has arguably less detail, and most certainly less spare part than, the ork Bommer but cost 1/3 again as much.

I am sure I have more but these instantly popped into my head.

Oh, a thread on GW prices. Why hasn't there been one like these yet?

 Sigvatr wrote:
Oh, a thread on GW prices. Why hasn't there been one like these yet?

To really encompass everything, we need a Kickstarter thread to get the funds so that we can send a C&D to these types of threads.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Oh, a thread on GW prices. Why hasn't there been one like these yet?

To really encompass everything, we need a Kickstarter thread to get the funds so that we can send a C&D to these types of threads.

Well played

 Sigvatr wrote:
Oh, a thread on GW prices. Why hasn't there been one like these yet?

.. expect a 30-40 page special within the next month or so, when the perennial price rise hits Europe and the US.

jcrone2 wrote:
....land raider at $75......

Ok, let me show you a different way to think about this. Instead of looking at gaming companies, who always think they need to sell at a premium, let's look at model/miniature companies. Heck, GW likes to call themselves a model/miniature company first and foremost, so let's entertain them.

My favorite example is Tamiya. As a rule, Tamiya USA's models are fare more detailed, have far more pieces, and yet their 1/48 scale models are fairly similar in mass (though slightly larger) to GW's 28mm Heroic scale.

Tamiya's German Destroyer Jagdtiger tank hunter model retails for $36.00 on their webstore. According to the PDF of the instruction manual, the model has over 100 pieces on four sprues.

Let's look at Tamiya's infantry.

Tamiya's WWII German Infantry--1/48 On Maneuvers kit costs $16.00. The kit contains pieces for 15 infantry figures.

The most expensive Tamiya 1/48 scale military miniature is the "German 88mm Gun Flak37 -- Siege of Tobruk" model that prices at $54.00. The model is designed to be convertible between the deployed position and/or riding on it's gun carriage. It comes with 8 infantry/gunner models and their encampment (sand bag walls, tent, oil drums, crates, table & chairs, radios and ladders, etc.) in addition to the gun and carriage models.

If you look at the model industry as a whole, instead of just looking at the game industry, you'll see that pretty much all the gaming companies charge way too much for their models relative to companies that simply make models not associated with a game. Some of the smaller companies might have an argument due to the small scale of their production, but a company as extensive as GW certainly doesn't.

I think the relevant point here is that GW does not consider Tamiya et. al. to be competition for their customers. Clearly, they are not focused on competitive pricing. This conversation is overdone and moot.

Saldiven wrote:

jcrone2 wrote:
....land raider at $75......

Ok, let me show you a different way to think about this. Instead of looking at gaming companies, who always think they need to sell at a premium, let's look at model/miniature companies. Heck, GW likes to call themselves a model/miniature company first and foremost, so let's entertain them.

My favorite example is Tamiya. As a rule, Tamiya USA's models are fare more detailed, have far more pieces, and yet their 1/48 scale models are fairly similar in mass (though slightly larger) to GW's 28mm Heroic scale.

Tamiya's German Destroyer Jagdtiger tank hunter model retails for $36.00 on their webstore. According to the PDF of the instruction manual, the model has over 100 pieces on four sprues.

Let's look at Tamiya's infantry.

Tamiya's WWII German Infantry--1/48 On Maneuvers kit costs $16.00. The kit contains pieces for 15 infantry figures.

The most expensive Tamiya 1/48 scale military miniature is the "German 88mm Gun Flak37 -- Siege of Tobruk" model that prices at $54.00. The model is designed to be convertible between the deployed position and/or riding on it's gun carriage. It comes with 8 infantry/gunner models and their encampment (sand bag walls, tent, oil drums, crates, table & chairs, radios and ladders, etc.) in addition to the gun and carriage models.

If you look at the model industry as a whole, instead of just looking at the game industry, you'll see that pretty much all the gaming companies charge way too much for their models relative to companies that simply make models not associated with a game. Some of the smaller companies might have an argument due to the small scale of their production, but a company as extensive as GW certainly doesn't.

I actually sent a belligerent email to games workshop recently about their pricing. This was the canned response they gave.

"Hello,

Games Workshop makes the best fantasy miniatures in the world. Our pricing reflects that. Each year our product gets better and better and each year we adjust our pricing to reflect that improvement in quality. How much? Over the last 5 years, our objective has been to keep our prices in line with UK retail price inflation, which has been 3-4% per annum. In our opinion product quality has improved by more than this, but we feel that limiting price increases to inflation offers hobbyists fantastic value for money. Over that same period, Games Workshop has had to deal with some major cost price increases, significantly higher than the prices we have charged our customers. We protect hobbyists from those cost pressures by efficiency improvements in the way we make our products. We intend to keep doing that in the future. I hope you can see that the changes we make to our prices are neither excessive nor unreasonable, especially given the constant improvements in product quality we make each year.


Games Workshop
North America Customer Services "

There's just so much B.S. in that statement I don't even know where to start. Yet I keep buying regardless I am such an enabler of the B.S.

++Edit++ What did you expect surixurient? Although it's nice that they bothered to reply at least.

Yes.. the point is that only GW make a Landraider. Saying that a Landraider is equivalent to a Revell/modern Airfix kit that costs £20 or so is a moot point.

There are probably more than a dozen companies making WW2 tank kits, and so each one competes with each other to make the most accurate portrayal of the tank for the best price. It's why you get the likes of Hasegawa designers getting hold of the original design blueprints of a Stug, even travelling to Eastern Europe to see one of the few surviving examples get dragged out of a swamp, then make a miniature (with hundreds of pieces) that is 99.9% accurate to the actual tank.

There is no impetus on GW (or any other fantasy vehicle maker for that matter) to go to those lengths - of course, I and no doubt many others wish they would put a little bit of effort into making their stuff look like it might fly, so it doesn't bring to mind the comedy flying bed-spread or the launching of the Mary Rose - but they are dictating what exists and what doesn't within their own game universe. And unless something foolish happens with GW not looking after their IP, you will have to expect the price to remain high, and the relative 'value' (in terms of workmanship of the plastic kit, and the effort that has gone into it) to stay as low as the company can get away with.

surixurient wrote:
I Yet I keep buying regardless.

Keep doing that and the prices keep going up. Easy really.

Jack_Death wrote:
I think the relevant point here is that GW does not consider Tamiya et. al. to be competition for their customers. Clearly, they are not focused on competitive pricing. This conversation is overdone and moot.

You're missing the point.

GW claims they make the best models out there and charge a premium for the quality of their product.

Other companies make better models for half the price.

GW doesn't charge what they do because of the "quality" of their product; they charge it because they haven't yet gotten to a point where their pricing policy hurts their profit margin by a figure larger than what they can adjust for through internal cost-cutting measures.

Eh, I've come to accept GW's price gouging a long time ago. I love the game despite it's flaws. Plus hobbies are expensive no matter where you go so.... yeah.

I'll quit the day Cadian squads cost $50, though.

Yeah, it's all to do with oppurtunity cost.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Eh, I've come to accept GW's price gouging a long time ago. I love the game despite it's flaws. Plus hobbies are expensive no matter where you go so.... yeah.

I'll quit the day Cadian squads cost $50, though.

50 dollars in what country?

I returned about two years ago, having done nothing tabletop based for over a decade, only BL books had kept me in touch with the GW universe in any way at all.

On deciding to start wargaming again, I automatically picked up 40k, because that's what I knew.

Fast forward to the present day, and I'm frankly staggered that GW has still managed to maintain the market share it holds. Back in the day, there really weren't any viable alternatives, and the Internet didn't really offer the same level of information it does now, so it was much harder to generate awareness if you were offering an alternative.

While I'm still in the process of finishing two 40K armies, and have no intention of giving up the game, that's mainly down to a nostalgic affection rather than being dazzled by how things have moved forwards, in fact 6th seemed to almost move backwards towards 2nd in some respects. However, I now also play X Wing regularly, am familiar with the Infinity rule set and have an Aleph force lined up in my painting queue, and am currently working my way through the Dropzone Commander rulebook and I can't really see me not starting at least one faction for that either.

The point all this rambling is getting around to is that these are good games, with attractive, good quality miniatures and, importantly, much lower entry prices. Although Im not a huge fan of the models, Warmahordes also falls into this category, although the pricing isn't hugely different from GW, the price to get started is much lower.

The only argument I can offer as to why these products haven't taken bigger chunks out of GW is you have to look harder to find out about them. GW have a presence in Most large town centres in the UK, so even those who aren't interested in the hobby have heard of them. However, the massive cost of running the retail operation must surely dictate their price policy to some degree.

This then explains their near fanatical attempts to completely blinker their customer base, because once you've progressed from Noob to Vet, you're almost certain to start to look further afield, the longer they can keep you locked into the HHHobby, the better, for once a customer goes through the looking glass they risk losing them permanently.

So GW are stuck in a vicious circle, their retail arm is key to them staying ahead of the competition by being the most recognisable brand by far, but are forced to charge high prices in order to turn a profit, this in turn means that consumers who enter the hobby seriously are at a higher risk of moving away from GW to the competition and spending their money with them because of the prices.

If you take the view of GW, their prices are not insane, they are necessary. I for one choose not to pay them most of the time, and look for alternatives whenever possible, and from this point onwards I doubt I will ever invest in starting a new game or faction again. They have managed themselves into a corner, and I cannot see a bright future for them without radical changes, its not the 90s anymore, and the sooner they realise that the sooner they can start moving forward again.

TLDR GW prices are insane, but they have to charge them to keep afloat and the reasons they have to charge them are entirely their fault.

 mattyrm wrote:
Third edition was a while back...

Inflation?

Seriously though, I dont think GWs prices are abdolutely awful, but they could be cheaper.

I think in the long run they would make more if they dropped the price a little though, as it stands I only use ebay and discounters, and that would not be the case if they dropped the price a tad, they just dont seem to want to meet us halfway!

You're talking 100% increase in price when not only has GW's sales numbers gone up in the 15 years since second edition (meaning production costs would have gone down) but the newer modeling systems mean that production costs have only gone down.

Once again though, to illustrate just how outrageous GW's prices are:

A Leman Russ (95 all plastic parts) costs about the same as a Dragon M1A2 Abrams (an 817-part multimedia kit including 98 in etched brass and a turned metal gun barrel). Considering the cost of brass and CNC turning operations (which I know something about, being a mechanical engineer) there is absolutely no justification for GW's prices.

If you wan't a perfect explanation on just how much GW's prices dun goofed, check out http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Games_Workshop#Why_Games_Workshop_is_Bad_and_it_Should_Feel_Bad. They did a complete run down of GW's economic policies and just how flawed their prices are.

 Peregrine wrote:
The biggest problem with GW's prices is the total cost of an army. Sure, Infinity models might cost as much per model, but I only need 10-15 of them compared to 50-100+ and multiple vehicles for a 40k army. If you want to get started in a GW game you're spending $500+ before you can even play a single game, and that's a big barrier to entry for new players.

40k isnt too bad if you stick with marines. you have a point though, i think this is part of the reason why fantasy is falling on its ass. No one wants to buy blocks of 30-50 troops. Few want to assemble and paint giant blocks of infantry either. all that work and can hardly even see the guys in the middle of the unit. That and ranking stuff up is a pain in the ass.

fantasy has alot of strikes against it.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Eh, I've come to accept GW's price gouging a long time ago. I love the game despite it's flaws. Plus hobbies are expensive no matter where you go so.... yeah.

I'll quit the day Cadian squads cost $50, though.

50 dollars in what country?

United States. But dear god... how can an australian even make a footguard army at $55 a pop? The prices may not be terribad here but... those poor Australians!

The market can bear GW's prices, and it does. Therefore GW's prices aren't insane. I suspect GW will increase their prices again this year (by the typical small amount, of course), that the usual suspects on the Internet will freak out and say the sky is falling, and that everyone will go right on buying GW products.

I personally think some of GW's prices are pretty silly. For instance, the new Finecast Tau Commander, while a very cool model, definitely doesn't strike me as a good deal relative to the Forge World suits you can get for a similar price. However, people keep buying them-- neither of my FLGS can keep copies of that (IMO) overpriced commander on the shelves!

The thing you have to remember is that very few miniatures companies offer products that enjoy the level of customization and cross-range support that GW can offer. For instance, a Space Marine player has the Commander, Command Squads, Tactical Marines, Assault Squads, Bikes, and Devastator Marines. And that's just in terms of multi-part plastics, with tons of conversion sprues, bitz, metal/Finecast models, etc. This wide range of options makes it very easy for players to "make an army their own." Similarly, GW's rules and publications encourage conversions and customization.

While some of GW's competitors are approaching this-- Dreamforge and Defiance have some very nice multi-part plastic kits-- GW is established to the extent where they are very hard to compete with thanks to their very large range of models, excellent IP, and open setting. When it comes to making an army your own, GW seems to more or less have things locked up.

I personally hope that some of GW's competitors are able to compete at this level in the near future, because I think that more competition would be good for the industry as a whole. But right now, GW has a privileged place, and I don't think it could reasonably be described as "insane" that they're leveraging that to make more money.

Some might call it shortsighted, but even that remains to be seen-- to be honest, I think there's a decent chance that none of GW's competitors will ever be able to compete on its level, and if GW thinks that too there isn't really a strong reason for them to not keep doing what they're doing.

 Kingsley wrote:
The market can bear GW's prices, and it does. Therefore GW's prices aren't insane. I suspect GW will increase their prices again this year (by the typical small amount, of course), that the usual suspects on the Internet will freak out and say the sky is falling, and that everyone will go right on buying GW products.

I'm taking an over/over under on the average price increase on vehicles. Will we have 82 dollar Heldrakes?