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Gman1985 wrote:
When you look at the cost for putting an average sized army on the table including painting, some scenery etc, it costs a fortune. If you look at it from the perspective of the amount of enjoyment you get out of it and the amount of time you can invest in what you purchase, it's totally worth the money. That's my humble opinion anyway...

For some, not all.

Making it a blanket statement makes that statement wrong.

You can say 'For many, including myself, looking at it from the amount of enjoyment' etc. and be correct.

Though you did put 'in my humble opinion' - if even one person disagrees then the statement is still false....

So, let me be that one person - No, for me the expense is not 'totally worth the money'.

In large part because I have less expensive games that I like better.

Less expensive + More enjoyable game > More expensive + Less enjoyable game.

Given a choice between laying Kings of War and playing Warhammer Fantasy Battle, I will choose Kings of War - even if I get the armies for both games for free.

Given a choice between Kings of War and Mordheim... ... ... I will be a happy grump! (Mordheim remains one of my favorite games of all time.)

Mind, many of the models that I will be playing with will have nothing to do with GW aside from the game being played.

The Auld Grump


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
You aren't engaging the argument, you're just telling people they're wrong!

I have no ego, I assure you, but I do have a problem with posters who seem to do nothing but criticise other people's opinions without putting up their own for similar treatment.

Monty Python wrote:A man walks into an office.

Man: (Michael Palin) Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.

Receptionist: Certainly sir. Have you been here before?

Man: No, this is my first time.

Receptionist: I see. Well, do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

Man: Well, what would be the cost?

Receptionist: Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.

Man: Well, I think it's probably best if I start with the one and then see how it goes from there, okay?

Receptionist: Fine. I'll see who's free at the moment.

(Pause)

Receptionist: Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory. Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.

Man: Thank you. (Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?

Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...

Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!

Man: What?

A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!

M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!

A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

M: Oh! Oh I see!

A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.

M: Oh...Sorry...

A: Not at all!

A: (under his breath) stupid git.

Sorry.... that sketch seems to come to mind.

As does standing on a desk shouting 'What facts?! at some of the participants....

I think there's enough room on top of this desk for both of us to stand, shouting....

The Auld Grump

GW prices are insane and if you think that they aren't you are either:
1) Someone who prints his/her own currency.
2) A drug dealer looking to launder money.
3) The US Government
4) Jervis Johnson or any other idiot at GW

Your examples do not hold water or compare because many of the games you named are skirmish level games and require fewer models that 40K or Fantasy. When you need 50 -200 plus models to play as opposed to 10 or so it makes a huge difference. You know I understand economics, the principles of supply and demand, etc. and on one hand I can agree that if the customer is wiling to pay that outrageous price than by all means GW should charge it. I also understand the converse as well in that further raising prices tends to take the initial starting cost out of more and more would be players as well. This being said, I think you are mad to think GW has reasonably priced anything in their line. It used to be that GW made very affordable paths into its core games via the bargain priced starter boxes as well as $10-20 codex / army books. Now days many would be gamers that are interested in starting armies turn away when they see the initial cost. You can state all the garbage you like, but those people who are curious enough to look at the starter sets most often place them back on their dusty shelves and go to their FLGS counter to buy a few packs of Magic cards since they can afford $20-40 not $100 plus. Couple this with some of the core players who stop buying GW crap because they no longer can afford it and maybe you can see the problem. With prices being what they are GW armies cost $500 or well more to put a decent army on the table, let alone the cost of cases, rules, paints, glue, etc. So my friend maybe in your world GW prices are A-OK but in the world I live in I see them well above what the average consumer is willing to spend on entertainment.

 DeffDred wrote:
Slaughtebeast, 2 sprues of plastic, $85

Ork Stompa, 16 sprues of plastic, $115.50

WTF?

That's all I have to say.

In regards to overpricing based on the sprues/ amounts of plastic used in each mould. GW bases there price based on how 'effective' the squad/vehicle/whatever is or/and on how detailed the kit is.
For example, currently in Australia
A box of 12 Khorne Berzerkers straight from old GW itself costs $62
Whereas a squad of 7 Plague marines costs $72 ... Makes you wonder...

Depends on your definition of Insanity and context .

One could argue that as a business model its not particularly sane when taking into account the general economic situation , the competition and other factors .

I have been price sensitive on principle for some time now - and I can recall an instance one Sunday evening in a GW store that actually induced a feeling of anger when witmessing the staff price - re-stickering of some of the range - in particular the sudden £8 - £10 increase in Tau Battlesuits on the shelf ( I did Tau at that time ) . That appears to have been the point my GW spending started to drop off sharply ( its now at zero ) - prices not being the sole reason though

Now , while I wouldnt call the GW prices generally Insane , there have been some obvious examples of sharp-intake -of -breath prices .

I was after Hordes ( PP ) Raptors a couple of weeks back but £56 was a bit too much for me so its not just GW that I am price sensitive to .

While i do think they practices are anti consumer and their prices outrageous, the market will sort it out eventually. Its plain, on their annual report they have steadily and significantly lost sales volume over the years (when taking into account yearly price rices).

There is a reason why Disney is Disney and GW on its own ecosystem has shrinked in comparison to the competition over the years. Disney being the dominant player can coast to higher dominance by keeping the same quality standard and simply not pissing off its consumer base. GW on the other hand has done everything in its power over the years to piss off its consumer base, and it shows.

MajorSoB wrote:
Now days many would be gamers that are interested in starting armies turn away when they see the initial cost. You can state all the garbage you like, but those people who are curious enough to look at the starter sets most often place them back on their dusty shelves and go to their FLGS counter to buy a few packs of Magic cards since they can afford $20-40 not $100 plus.

I see this all the time. There are so many people who are (or would) be interested in GW products, but the price before they can even play a game, let alone the paints and models needed for a full army causes many to turn aside.

(Mantic, if it seizes the opportunity to really put itself out there is in a prime position to eat up a lot of potential customers not to mention veterans. The thing keeping me around is the IP, but I'm almost at that stage where I'd rather pay for less dynamic models and repose them myself than pay for these multi-part kits that should be made of gold.)

MajorSoB wrote:
GW prices are insane and if you think that they aren't you are either:
1) Someone who prints his/her own currency.
2) A drug dealer looking to launder money.
3) The US Government
4) Jervis Johnson or any other idiot at GW

Y...This being said,....

I knew this thread was going to deliver some well-reasoned arguments!

 Coldhatred wrote:

MajorSoB wrote:
Now days many would be gamers that are interested in starting armies turn away when they see the initial cost. You can state all the garbage you like, but those people who are curious enough to look at the starter sets most often place them back on their dusty shelves and go to their FLGS counter to buy a few packs of Magic cards since they can afford $20-40 not $100 plus.

I see this all the time. There are so many people who are (or would) be interested in GW products, but the price before they can even play a game, let alone the paints and models needed for a full army causes many to turn aside.

(Mantic, if it seizes the opportunity to really put itself out there is in a prime position to eat up a lot of potential customers not to mention veterans. The thing keeping me around is the IP, but I'm almost at that stage where I'd rather pay for less dynamic models and repose them myself than pay for these multi-part kits that should be made of gold.)

doesn't mantic have like a dozen guys on each team? I.don't see how that competes with 40k.

 BryllCream wrote:

doesn't mantic have like a dozen guys on each team? I.don't see how that competes with 40k.

Try a forum search for "Kings of War" or "Warpath".

 Elemental wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

doesn't mantic have like a dozen guys on each team? I.don't see how that competes with 40k.

Try a forum search for "Kings of War" or "Warpath".

Heh, I have seen some BIG games of Kings of War.

One army had 300 zombies, and zombies were not all that he had. (They were the part that I painted for him though.)

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

doesn't mantic have like a dozen guys on each team? I.don't see how that competes with 40k.

Try a forum search for "Kings of War" or "Warpath".

Heh, I have seen some BIG games of Kings of War.

One army had 300 zombies, and zombies were not all that he had. (They were the part that I painted for him though.)

The Auld Grump

To be fair, you can do that easily with Vampire Counts. 300 zombies is 900pts. Plenty of room left for some decent units.

From the pictures, the Mantic minis of undead look a bit smaller than GW models. Can anyone with models confirm or deny this?

They're the same scale, but they'r emore realistically proportioned, which makes them about a millimeter or so shorter and thinner all over.

 -Loki- wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

doesn't mantic have like a dozen guys on each team? I.don't see how that competes with 40k.

Try a forum search for "Kings of War" or "Warpath".

Heh, I have seen some BIG games of Kings of War.

One army had 300 zombies, and zombies were not all that he had. (They were the part that I painted for him though.)

The Auld Grump

To be fair, you can do that easily with Vampire Counts. 300 zombies is 900pts. Plenty of room left for some decent units.

And at how much money for that 300 zeds?

We got these when Mantic was having a Hallowe'en sale - and included tombstones. If I recall correctly it was $45 US for 60 zeds and a sprue of tombstones - and we got 5 of those to make the 300.

Now those same packages of zeds go for $64.99 each - still decent, but no where near as sexy.

The BIG armies comment was in terms of dollars cost as well as points cost.

Also... while this is entirely a matter of taste, I think that the Mantic Zeds look better. Not always the case, mind, but undead are pretty lucky in that regard. (GW zeds and skellies tend to look a wee bit silly....)

The Auld Grump

The alledged price of the repackaged Dire Avengers is insane. As in guano.

Their pricing is just insane. Aren't the new Dire Avengers about $7 a piece, I remember getting whole units of them for that much. I just finished the Robotech kickstarter, got 192 multi-pose plastic minis for $260 including shipping. That's $1.35 a piece, I doubt they will be as good as some of the latest GW stuff, but who knows.

While not all of GW's prices are necessarily insane, some most definitely are. Dire Avengers that just a couple of years ago retailed at $30 for ten, and currently have risen (at a rate faster than that of inflation btw) to $37 for ten, are now going to be $70 for ten, making Dire Avengers more expensive than many Forgeworld lines, like Elysians or DKoK infantry.

Something has clearly gone wrong at GW with sillyness like that.

JWhex wrote:
From the pictures, the Mantic minis of undead look a bit smaller than GW models. Can anyone with models confirm or deny this?

This is true. The Corporation Marines I got look rediculous standing next to Cadians, I had planned to use them to proxy as stormtroopers but after I saw how little they were I realised how rediculous they would look

 BryllCream wrote:

JWhex wrote:
From the pictures, the Mantic minis of undead look a bit smaller than GW models. Can anyone with models confirm or deny this?

This is true. The Corporation Marines I got look rediculous standing next to Cadians, I had planned to use them to proxy as stormtroopers but after I saw how little they were I realised how rediculous they would look

Seems to be quite a common thing. GW really should learn how to scale to 28mm properly.

Or Mantic need to learn the Rule of Cool. It swings both ways.

 BryllCream wrote:
Or Mantic need to learn the Rule of Cool. It swings both ways.

I dunno, there is something to be said when the humans are about the height of the super humans. I wish the IG models were a bit smaller, it'd help with the overall look I reckon

 BryllCream wrote:
Or Mantic need to learn the Rule of Cool. It swings both ways.

YMMV. A number of GW ranges have decended into parodies of themselves, where models are dripping with detail, often at the expense of anatomy and posing. GW is not alone here, as PP is going down this path as well. Sometimes less is more.

edit: IMHO, as an example of newer not necessarily better: 2nd Edition (Jes Goodwin) Asmodai vs 6th Edition Asmodai, the original sculpt, is much better posed. The new sculpt benefitting from the finer detail, but poorer posing, comical skull shoulderpad and detail for the sake of detail (purity seal placement, skull pommel on the crozius, smokestacks)

 Peregrine wrote:
The biggest problem with GW's prices is the total cost of an army. Sure, Infinity models might cost as much per model, but I only need 10-15 of them compared to 50-100+ and multiple vehicles for a 40k army. If you want to get started in a GW game you're spending $500+ before you can even play a single game, and that's a big barrier to entry for new players.

This is pretty much summed up very well here.

I'm hoping to start a small Dark Eldar force in the near future but, to get a decently sized force, I'm spending somewhere in the region of £150-200, which is a lot of money.

I think another argument in favour of GW's pricing is that they do come with tons of awesome bits, which you can convert which is, not only a lot of fun, but also very satisfying when you take your unique army to a game. It also means you end up saving a lot. Take the Flamespyre Phoenix. I recently bought one at 20% off the GW RRP of £35, which is still a lot of money for what is, although large, still only a single model. However, with a few items from my bitz box, I managed to make an Anointed of Asuryan on foot, as well as a BSB Noble. So, if we presume that, roughly speaking, these two characters would have cost me £6-8 each, factoring in this along with the discount from an independent retailer, I've bought that Phoenix for about £14 quid. If GW put a model of that size for that price on sale, people would be very happy indeed.

I think that can largely cut both ways, though. Perhaps moreso in 40k, but rarely do you have the weapons bits to make the specialised squads that do well in the game. When I built my SW Long Fangs with missile launchers, I had two options: buy roughly 1 box of Tac Marines for every missile launcher I wanted to obtain, or go to 3rd party bits sites. Long story short, the ML Long Fangs ended up costing an additional $5 per guy ($25/squad).

 BryllCream wrote:
Or Mantic need to learn the Rule of Cool. It swings both ways.

I kind of wish that GW would get rid of the rule of cool - all too often Cool=Crap....

At this point... I prefer much of the Mantic line, in part because I prefer a more realistic product - you know, skeletons that have skulls that would fit into a human sized head... things like that.

I also like the Corporation figs more than most Guard figs... but will admit to liking the Death Korp of Kreig more than Corporation, but that is FW not GW....

The Auld Grump

The new Eldar kits are the ultimate example of insane prices. Dire Avengers for $70?! $115 for the wraithknight?!?! Simply absurd. For the same price as those two kits, I could have a leviathan and 40 Eisenkern stormtroopers from Dreamforge, with a few bucks left over.

 Guildsman wrote:
The new Eldar kits are the ultimate example of insane prices. Dire Avengers for $70?! $115 for the wraithknight?!?! Simply absurd. For the same price as those two kits, I could have a leviathan and 40 Eisenkern stormtroopers from Dreamforge, with a few bucks left over.

$50 for the Eldar supplement is also nuts.

I think the challenger has been pretty much been curbstomped in this thread.

I am very concerned for the cost of Baneblade and Stompa kits.

The Eldar Gundam is priced the same as Baneblades at current.

This is surely to be corrected soon....

I wonder if they'll jack up the price of the "new" Eldar Dire Avenger kit in June after they release it.

Yeah GW prices are rising at a much higher rate than inflation.....for instance the Citadel Realm of Battle Gameboard set I remember when it first came out here in USA it was $199 USD and back then I thought that was a bit pricey for 6 pieces of plastic and a bag since then it has gone up to a whopping $348 USD and around this past X-mas 2012 it was $299 USD...I don't even know when it jumped up to $348 I can buy a 40" LCD TV here for that price which has a lot more material cost and more complexity in manufacturing it.

Really how do they expect the game to be sustainable when no one can afford to even start playing the game because it is now priced for an elitist white collar consumer. between me and the wife we make about $140K before taxes so you figure $85K-$90K after income taxes then we have one kid (5 year old son) and a house geez after all the normal living expenses plus mortgage and insurance there is not much left for us heck I only get around $350 every 2 weeks for my self all the rest of my paycheck goes into the shared checking account to pay for all the family and house stuff and bills. That $350 has to cover my $34 Path train cost for 2 weeks, Car parking $40, and food and my own damn bills or things like going to the movies not much left to buy GW stuff with......I have had to resort to selling a lot of my old stuff on ebay to get money to buy stuff for this hobby.

At this rate instead of buying GW stuff I can buy a 3D scanner and printer and start printing all their models and sell them back to people at half the GW cost and probably still make a profit to pay for the cost of the Printer, Plastic spools and Scanner. There is the Makerbot Retail store right here in New York City near my job......

MakerBot Replicator™ 2X: $2,799.00 USD
NATURAL PLASTIC, 1kg Spool $43.00 USD ea
Matterform's 3D Scanner $583.00 USD.