Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

treslibras wrote:
Totally redundant discussion, this topic has been milked to death.*

For the sake of forum hygene, you might want to have a look at the top of the forum, one of the features reads "Forum Tools", there you will find "Search". Try it.




*Mind you, that won't keep half the dakkanauts from unloading the same opinions again.

useless post is useless


What makes me angry is the logic behind totally revamping something for the sake of money... like the 10 man dire avengers box for $35, is now a 5 man box for the same price... nothing new about it, except it shrunk... supposedly you need alot less of them now according to the rumors, but that isnt the point... suppose someone wants to use nothing but DA, GW has kicked these people in the jimmy and said tough, its our product... nothing says "@#$% customers" like jacking up prices... inflation is not an excuse...

jcrone2 wrote:

-Lets take a simple box of space marines for example...37.50...call it 40 bucks...is $4/per model...

Pfft, its double that in AUS/NZ. Explain how that isn't insane.

Checkmate.

I have been playing GW games more than 20 years now, and had a 11 year run as a manager for a FLGS in the '90s and early '00, and I just want to make a point about GW's prices and business practices: They are still here, they still support and develop the main games, they evolve. I can't think of any miniature wargame that was around when I started gaming in the late '80s that can make the same claim. The price you pay for GW products today is at the upper limit of (and in some cases above) reasonable, but I am quite sure that we, or our children, will be able to have this discussion 20 years from now conserning the rise in prices that came with 12th edition, and for me that continuety is worth paying extra for. There are other games today with better rules and/or better miniatures, but not with better support.
And to be honest, some of the reason you new players have to buy a gakload of miniatures before you can start playing is that the size of the game has evolved with the size of the collections old farts like me have acumulated over the years. 40K started as a skirmish game, after all. All I have to buy are the new codex and maybe one or two new, cool models whenever GW upgrades one of my armies.

A little disingenious to say it's the same ame as 40k v.6.0 is nothing like Rogue Trader. It uses similar models (none of the originals are still produced) but at much higher prices, even income adjusted. Plenty of historicals can say the same, minus price. Indeed, you can use your 60s WW2 Airfix figures just as well today as then, and I bet they will always be useful. And there will always be other (often cheaper and arguably better) sci fi and fantasy rules to use your galactic knights, space elves, or Jedi with.

GW is just overpriced toys. If you are willing to accept that, that's fine. But don't try to phrase it like some sort of investment.

Dr.Avalanche wrote:
I have been playing GW games more than 20 years now, and had a 11 year run as a manager for a FLGS in the '90s and early '00, and I just want to make a point about GW's prices and business practices: They are still here, they still support and develop the main games, they evolve. I can't think of any miniature wargame that was around when I started gaming in the late '80s that can make the same claim. The price you pay for GW products today is at the upper limit of (and in some cases above) reasonable, but I am quite sure that we, or our children, will be able to have this discussion 20 years from now conserning the rise in prices that came with 12th edition, and for me that continuety is worth paying extra for. There are other games today with better rules and/or better miniatures, but not with better support.
And to be honest, some of the reason you new players have to buy a gakload of miniatures before you can start playing is that the size of the game has evolved with the size of the collections old farts like me have acumulated over the years. 40K started as a skirmish game, after all. All I have to buy are the new codex and maybe one or two new, cool models whenever GW upgrades one of my armies.

Axis and Allies 1981. A far more successful product in mainstreaming miniatures gaming than GW ever can be. GW = Niche and a small niche in the modeling community.

 jmurph wrote:
A little disingenious to say it's the same ame as 40k v.6.0 is nothing like Rogue Trader. It uses similar models (none of the originals are still produced) but at much higher prices, even income adjusted.

That's true, but the game, since third edition, has changed only slightly with the editions. There haven't really been radical changes like WM and WM MkII.

 Peregrine wrote:
The biggest problem with GW's prices is the total cost of an army. Sure, Infinity models might cost as much per model, but I only need 10-15 of them compared to 50-100+ and multiple vehicles for a 40k army. If you want to get started in a GW game you're spending $500+ before you can even play a single game, and that's a big barrier to entry for new players.

My FLGS got around that by having games for newbies named "Fight Club".

The rules are simple, you bring one HQ, one Troop and one whatever. The armies are not point-costed or anything. Objectives are secret, and drawn from a stack of cards. Which stack you draw from is based on how many points that army is worth. So if you have a much stronger army, you get much harder objectives typically to compensate.

It does allow for new people to get going fairly quickly. My first ever game was my old 4th Carnifex, my old 16 Termagants and the only ones I bought new when I got back into being interested in 40K, a Hive Tyrant and a Guard.

I do not think that such an army is prohibitively expensive to start off with, I fielded all of 19 models against a similarly costed BT army that had around 21 models or so (essentially two full marine squads, a drop pod, and two characters or something).

Of course if you want to jump straight into a 1500 points regular battle ten yes, the initial investment will be prohibitive.

Baktru wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
The biggest problem with GW's prices is the total cost of an army. Sure, Infinity models might cost as much per model, but I only need 10-15 of them compared to 50-100+ and multiple vehicles for a 40k army. If you want to get started in a GW game you're spending $500+ before you can even play a single game, and that's a big barrier to entry for new players.

My FLGS got around that by having games for newbies named "Fight Club".

The rules are simple, you bring one HQ, one Troop and one whatever. The armies are not point-costed or anything. Objectives are secret, and drawn from a stack of cards. Which stack you draw from is based on how many points that army is worth. So if you have a much stronger army, you get much harder objectives typically to compensate.

It does allow for new people to get going fairly quickly. My first ever game was my old 4th Carnifex, my old 16 Termagants and the only ones I bought new when I got back into being interested in 40K, a Hive Tyrant and a Guard.

I do not think that such an army is prohibitively expensive to start off with, I fielded all of 19 models against a similarly costed BT army that had around 21 models or so (essentially two full marine squads, a drop pod, and two characters or something).

Of course if you want to jump straight into a 1500 points regular battle ten yes, the initial investment will be prohibitive.

I think the point Peregrine is making is that the game you were playing isn't the actual game of Warhammer 40,000. It is an alternate, house ruled version to allow you to play with low numbers of models without the normal rules getting in the way (it does sound fun though). But it isn't actual Warhammer 40,000. To play regular 40k, at a regular store, the initial investment is large when compared to other games.

Yes let's all keep refuting the norm with the abnormal. Because that gets us somewhere.

Motyak: Yes I will grant that. This system does throw overboard the FOC and the usual victory conditions.

I have to say though, that first match was fun. And it allowed me to buy models a few at a time and give them a try until I could field a 1000 point army and play normally.

This kind of ideas do mitigate the issue of the high initial investment, but yes indeed it is not pure WH40K.

It's a good job we have you guys around to define how 40k should be played.

If playing with a handful of models isn't 40k, what is it? I mean you're using 40k models and using a perfectly legal 40k ruleset, isn't that 40k? Can easily get a HQ and two troops for under £100.

Uh wow... that's 21 Models for 100 pounds?
What, what a bargain *rofl*

 BryllCream wrote:
It's a good job we have you guys around to define how 40k should be played.

Says the guy who thinks a balanced set of rules would make the game "boring".

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
It's a good job we have you guys around to define how 40k should be played.

Says the guy who thinks a balanced set of rules would make the game "boring".

And I explained why I thought that. Feel free to reply in that thread rather than dragging this one off topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RoninXiC wrote:
Uh wow... that's 21 Models for 100 pounds?
What, what a bargain *rofl*

Well for £100 I can get 3*Imperial Guard Squads, a Company Command Squad a bucket of plasma guns and a leman russ. That's 4 decently outfitted squads and some heavy support, easily enough for a skirmish against a similarly sized force against marines or whoever.

Did you buy the rulebook and codex with that £100 also?

RoninXiC wrote:
Uh wow... that's 21 Models for 100 pounds?
What, what a bargain *rofl*

To be fair, I play Orks, and I can get a HQ and two troops units for £31 at full GW retail. However that would only be about 150 points.

so yeah, a "legal" army can be done cheaply, but it would probably lose to a single space marine.

It's true that many other companies have caught up to GW and perhaps in some cases gone further than GW in their pricing.

Frankly, I think the price on something like the Wraithknight is less disturbing (nasty though it is relative to all previous Codex model releases) than the roughly 88% price increase on the Eldar Dire Avengers. Since its first release the set has gone from $30 to $37.25, not too terrible, but effectively jumping to $70 US for the same ten models all in one go will seem like highway robbery to anyone who knows they were $37.25 just days before.

GW has in recent years made 40K and Warhammer Fantasy much more oriented toward collecting and fielding huge armies than ever before, yet their approach from just a few years earlier when they made the core troops affordable to collect in large number then understandably gouged a bit on the more special and elite choices is gone. Price increases in the past couple years on basic troop choices for both games have been significant, making it more difficult than ever for newer customers to field large collections. For example, Imperial Guard Platoons as troop choices are virtually a thing of the past since the troopers went from $35 US for 20 models to $29 for 10 models. When one factors in that army books have jumped to near $50 US and other increases I fear for the growth of the hobby and GW's customer base. Last year the Land Raider jumped $8.25 US for the second consecutive year while other popular Space Marine vehicles also went up about $8 US in price. Earlier annual increases were usually only a dollar or so.

As a customer of more than two decades I like to see new customers in GW's stores, it keeps the stores open and the design studio busy cranking out cool new stuff. I hope GW doesn't implode from it's own draconian price increase philosophy of the past couple years.

Implode? probably a bit later down the road but atm you will see 2 things happening, armies will become even bigger and prices higher... I dont think the amount of models they want per army is appropriate for 28mm scale, tables look to cluttered to the point of looking ridiculous... 40k and wfb scale is wrong IMO. Yet its much more rentable for gw to keep on pushing a skirmish game into a mass battle game.

As for the 100 quid "legal" army, dont forget you need cleaning tools, glues, paints, varnish, dex, dices, flock and all kind of stuff so yeah that money would get you.... not much.

Actually went to GW store and one 40k rulebook and a dex will cost you 70 quid total...

If we're being facetious then add the cost of a gaming table and terrain, heating too. And the rent for your apartment. Etc.

Or you could be a grown up and recognise that you can get a decent, legal army for under £100.

 BryllCream wrote:
If we're being facetious then add the cost of a gaming table and terrain, heating too. And the rent for your apartment. Etc.

Or you could be a grown up and recognise that you can get a decent, legal army for under £100.

Are you talking new models? And could you make the list? I'm honestly curious about the army on the cheap

 BryllCream wrote:

Or you could be a grown up and recognise that you can get a decent, legal army for under £100.

Legal army. So we're counting at the very least the relevant codex. Well there's £20-£30 of your budget gone already....

It simply cannot be done. Even if you buy a copy of Dark Vengeance (and maybe swap the contents with a friend who wants the other ones), you've only got £8.50 left to spend on your army. You can hardly even get a single blister for that these days.

 BryllCream wrote:
If we're being facetious then add the cost of a gaming table and terrain, heating too. And the rent for your apartment. Etc.

Or you could be a grown up and recognise that you can get a decent, legal army for under £100.

I couldn't 'recognise' a legal GW army if it smacked me round the head with the massive rulebook the game somehow needs. I don't play any GW games, don't have any idea. I also don't follow GW pricing threads so don't know what sort of models you can get for £100. I enquired genuinely about whether you'd factored in the large amounts of paper the game requires you to purchase to play.

Perhaps you found the question confusing. That must be it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Or you could be a grown up and recognise that you can get a decent, legal army for under £100.

Legal army. So we're counting at the very least the relevant codex. Well there's £20-£30 of your budget gone already....

It simply cannot be done. Even if you buy a copy of Dark Vengeance (and maybe swap the contents with a friend who wants the other ones), you've only got £8.50 left to spend on your army. You can hardly even get a single blister for that these days.

This was my first thought as well. unless scraping the paint off of discarded crap marines found in bulk on ebay is supposed to count...

 BryllCream wrote:

Or you could be a grown up and recognise that you can get a decent, legal army for under £100.

Just picking up this and going on a tangent, I wonder what that same £100 would get me in other systems. Let's do a quick check with the ones I'm most familiar with:

Dystopian Wars:
Rulebook: £15
Battallion Box: £59. These vary, but they're around 37 miniatures, worth around 1200pts (where 1000pts is a good evening's gaming) and include dice, rulers, token sheets, some scenery and all the unit stats.
That leaves £26, which can go on a scenario book, or one or two big impressive models like a Sky Fortress or Mobile Airfield, which pushes the total value to around 14 - 1500pts.

Malifaux:
Rulebook: £18. The other three books are optional, since every miniature comes with a stat card. It doesn't seem to be available now, but you could get a mini "just the rules" book for around £10.
Card Deck: I can use a regular deck, but let's go with an official one for £4.50
Starter Box: Varies, so lets go for the most costly one--"Freikorps" or "Desolate & Soulless", at £27 each. They're worth about 25pts each, which is a below-average size game, but still good for a couple of hours.
Let's get enough stuff to bulk the force up to 40pts, which is "good evening's gaming" level. I'll get the Dead Rider (a big impressive miniature) for £18, Lazarus (medium-sized) for £10 and a bunch of infantry like, say, Necropunks (£11 for 3), and Canine Remains (£9 for 2). So that leaves me with a good selection of models for an "average sized" game, since I have well over 40pts now, and also means I don't need to add much more to have a viable alternate crew with a different master.

Warmachine:
Two-Player Starter Box: £52 (£62, but let's assume I get at least a lowball estimate of 10 back from selling the stuff I'm not using, or splitting the cost). Contains the mini rulebook, all relevant stat cards, and around 21pts worth of models for Khador or the Protectorate of Menoth (let's go Khador). The typical "good evening's gaming" level is 35pts, though the system works down to 15pts.
I've got enough warjacks, so let's grab some more infantry--a ten-man unit of Winter Guard, plus the unit attachment and three weapon attachments clocks in at around £37, adding about 12pts to my battle box total.
Let's round this out to 35 with a 2pt solo such as a Koldun Lord, Kovnik Joe, a Manhunter or a mercenary, the most expensive of which come in at about £8.

Warmachine (assuming I don't want a faction from a two-player set, I randomly choose Legion of Everblight):
Softback Rulebook: £18
Starter Box: £32
Heavy warbeast kit: £22
6x Striders + unit attachment: 28
Not as efficient as the two player set, but it comes to around 25pts which is good for a couple of hours.

And it's worth adding that as far as I know, those aren't armies of random cheapest stuff, each of them should work well as a competitive force. Also, this is at full retail price (using Firestorm Games as my base), assuming you don't get any of this stuff at a discount or second-hand. So the comparisons should be a Warhammer army bought new.

Ooh! Lets try this with Infinity!

Rulebook- Freebie!
Pan O starter- 30
Fusilier, HMG- 7.5
Dragoes- 27
Aquila Guard- 7.5
Machinist- 7.5

Full 300pt army, plus 20.5 Pounds to play with.

Comparing these other games that dont play anything like 40k is fairly useless.

I am sure 40k will be around longer than Dystopian Wars.

People compare warmahordes to 40k and fantasy a lot. That is another fairly useless comparison of apples and bananas. Another amusing thing about all these comparisons is some underlying assumption that people have the same amount of disposable income.

If one person has ten times the amount of money as another it is a rather futile comparison to make.

Why does different wealth matter? If something has greater "Bang-for-your-buck" than something else, you get comparatively more bang from it than it's competitors, whether you are spending $1 ( ) or $10 ( )

Secondly, why is comparing a product to its nearest competitor useless? The basic element of "test wits for a couple hours by commanding troops in a fantasy setting" doesn't change. The approach does, but it's still comparing fruit (Hint: one is round and red or green, tastes sour-to-sweet, and is formed from the stem at the base of the flower, while the other is yellow, vaguely phallic, tastes sweet. both are delicious, although I do prefer one over the other).

And finally:

Yeah, probably. Unless GW screws up.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:


Secondly, why is comparing a product to its nearest competitor useless? The basic element of "test wits for a couple hours by commanding troops in a fantasy setting" doesn't change. The approach does, but it's still comparing fruit (Hint: one is round and red or green, tastes sour-to-sweet, and is formed from the stem at the base of the flower, while the other is yellow, vaguely phallic, tastes sweet. both are delicious, although I do prefer one over the other).

Because warmahordes and 40k are so different you really have no idea that they are even competing with each other in a meaningful way. The default position from 40k for a person could be a very wide variety of games from warmachine to infinity to flames of war to etc.

A large amount of the appeal to many people for 40k is the background, those people may just choose not to play a miniature game at all if they leave 40k. They may move on to board games, historicals or some other leisure activity. For teenage boys the biggest competitor to 40k is probably girls, cars, motorcycles and other age related activities.

I play FoW, 40k and warmahordes and they are all so different that they just do not compare well.

No... they really aren't that different.

Miniatures? Check.
Magic? Check.
Skirmish level game? Check.

Even the amounts moved by most units are comparable.

We are not comparing apples to oranges, we are comparing apples to pears.

And, sorry, I have played with enough folks that could not care less about the background in any of these games.

I will grant you girls and vehicles, but when it comes to gaming... yeah, Warmahordes is a competitor.

As for the girls, cars, and motorcycles... now who is comparing apples to oranges?

Miniatures? Giirrrlll!
Magic? Giirrrlll!
Skirmish level game? Go away! There's a giirrrlll!

The Auld Grump, wait? It's a girl that plays games? ROCK ON!

I think he's saying that for a teenager, if he gave up 40k, he wouldn't move to Warmachine or whatever, he'd just give up the hobby altogether and probably focus on girls, motorcycles, cars and other age related activities instead of painting plastic men.