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I don't mind Monstrous Creatures, but I dislike their implementation for certain armies. Looking at the Tau aesthetic, it should have been a vehicle. The idea that it can be destroyed by things like poison is just ass, and people like to say "well just imagine the poison is acid" but if that's the case, then why doesn't the poison rule work on vehicles with an armor value? The rip-tide is a vehicle, it should have an armor value.

I dislike the Wraith Knight on the principle that the Eldar are supposed to be a very small, mobile, glass cannon army that relies on hit and run tactics and its speed to survive and do damage. Giving them the biggest freaking unit in the entire TT game that will almost assuredly be used as a static weapons platform in most games really craps on their aesthetic.

I can understand Daemons, CSM, Tyranids and maybe even the Dark Eldar having monstrous creatures (DE have various abominations and monsters to justify them having some super-mutant-freak thing as an MC). Beyond those factions, I don't feel like MC's fit the other factions' themes.

Though the Wraithlord has always been an MC. I guess that's fair.

 washout77 wrote:
I kinda feel like GW is trying to make Apocalypse and Epic the only way to play 40k. It seems slowly the amount of points people field and the amount of "epic" units that come out are getting higher and higher

Quite true -- It started out as a skirmish game, and every edition has been creep upwards -- due to reducing the cost of models in terms of points (so for the same "size" in points army, you suddenly need a "bigger" in models army), and due to just simply scaling the game for larger and larger battles. Implementation of force organization charts and objectives were big size creep points to the game, as was simplifying down things such that entire squads had to fire at the same target, etc.

I don't mind Monstrous Creatures, but I dislike their implementation for certain armies. Looking at the Tau aesthetic, it should have been a vehicle. The idea that it can be destroyed by things like poison is just ass, and people like to say "well just imagine the poison is acid" but if that's the case, then why doesn't the poison rule work on vehicles with an armor value? The rip-tide is a vehicle, it should have an armor value.

GW wants the huge models to sell , the Riptide and Eldar knight would have to be av 12 considering their size an armor, if It were not a MC . So to make them playable GW would have to give them +4inv and even then they would die rather fast .Making them MC makes them survive more , because aside for DA and sometimes nids no one uses poison using units .

Quite true -- of course, the real underlying problem is that the vehicle armor value system is poor design.

A land raider can be taken out by a single melta gun shot, whereas a single hive guard cannot. Huh?

 Verthane wrote:
Quite true -- of course, the real underlying problem is that the vehicle armor value system is poor design.

A land raider can be taken out by a single melta gun shot, whereas a single hive guard cannot. Huh?

We could always turn the dial way back on the time machine and use a unique "penetrating hit table" for each vehicle to let everyone know what got blown off every time someone got a penetrating hit. Stuff like "subtract 3" from movement speed" "-1 to BS" "weapon destroyed"...

Well, given that the other thread got baned by the fascist Mods, I'll continue my rambling here

BlaxicanX wrote:
I dislike the Wraith Knight on the principle that the Eldar are supposed to be a very small, mobile, glass cannon army that relies on hit and run tactics and its speed to survive and do damage. Giving them the biggest freaking unit in the entire TT game that will almost assuredly be used as a static weapons platform in most games really craps on their aesthetic.

Well, Eldar Knights have been in the fluff since day one. But then, Eldar Titans (and perhaps Knights as well - I recall the rules for Eldar titans from Epic 40k and FW, but didn't get to play Adeptus Titanicus) are supposed to be very fragile compared to their Imperial counterparts, thus relying in cloaking and high mobility to stay alive, so here's me hoping that the rules reflect the Eldar approach to super-heavy walker design.

The fact that it's a Knight raises some interesting points as well. Knights were meant to be lower-end superheavies, some sort of "infantry" for apocalyptic battles involving Titans (they even were scaled to stand on standard GW infantry bases). They strike me as borderline Apocalypse units: Extremely powerful for a standard battle of 40k, but perhaps too weak to stand on its own on Apocalypse. Guess we'll know more when we read the rules.

As for other concerns regarding the trend towards ginormous kits in 40k, I just talked to a friend andlongtime Eldar player who has voiced his intention to preorder the Towering Monstrosity as soon as it hits the web. Asking him about the concerns over size and price, he's reminded me of the (kinda heated) debates that sparked amongst the local 40k players when the now widely accepted Valkyrie was first released. I wasn't around when that happened, but seemingly it caused quite a stir as some players felt it was a)Ugly as sin b)Contrary to everything 40k was meant to stand for c)Too big for the gaming table. Some years on, noone seems to question the Valkyrie as an integral part of the Imperial Guard outside the fairly frequent cries of OP (and some players have one even if they won't field it, just because it looks cool).

 Ailaros wrote:
You know, it wouldn't actually surprise me if the new guard codex get's something that's an intermediary between the russ and the baneblade.

Because otherwise they're going to have to give us some sort of super-armored-sentinel-MC-monstrosity that will make me want to vomit on myself.

You mean the Macharius?

It won't be something currently produced by Forgeworld. The last couple of codex releases have shown rather conclusively I think that they are not raiding kit ideas from Forgeworld any more.

Plus, also, they said they won't do it any more anyway (since it overall does not expand the range, just moves a FW resin model to GW plastic).

The sheer size of the Wraithknight sets an odd precedent. Right now, I'd not be shocked at all seeing the Stompa and Baneblade go into the Ork and Guard codices, and the new Apocalypse book not having datasheets anymore, just scenarios and special rules, with Apocalypse stuff moving to plain old 40k.

Amusingly, Forgeworld is the way around price creeps.

Most of their stuff has remained at its original astronomical price since release. In fact, the books have gotten slightly cheaper as of late. Their pricing, while starting from a much higher base, has remained consistent, predictable and quite fixed. Hence how some kits are actually the same price as their GW counterpart while offering better quality. About the only things really stupidly expensive still in comparison to normal GW is their Imperial Guard infantry; the Death Korps and Elysians.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
About the only things really stupidly expensive still in comparison to normal GW is their Imperial Guard infantry; the Death Korps and Elysians.

And that depends on the country.

For Australians, even the infantry is nearly at parity with GW's infantry (10 Elysians are $11au more than 10 Cadians). One more price hike and it should be about right.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Dreadnoughts/MK-IV-DREADNOUGHT.html

This is about 9 dollars cheaper than a GW Dreadnought and looks a lot better.

Edit: Before you factor in weapon costs.

In terms of scale this is the direction we have to go. as the game progresses in the span of years we have to creep into a realm that is bigger and bigger.

Warmachine is doing the same thing with their gargantuans many games that start at skirmish level will expand over time. you have to in order to get existing customers to buy new models.

sure we could be asked to field more units by reducing point costs. but its better for the company and more interesting for us to have new units with new mechanics to buy and play with. Otherwise the complaint would be that GW was bland and unimaginative forcing us to buy the same units over and over again making them cheaper in points cost.

Big Robo/MC/baby carrier complaints really fall into the category of all the complaints that translate to me as "I LOVE GW! I love them so much that I cant stop COMPLAINING about them!" Some people just love to complain.

 -Loki- wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
About the only things really stupidly expensive still in comparison to normal GW is their Imperial Guard infantry; the Death Korps and Elysians.

And that depends on the country.

For Australians, even the infantry is nearly at parity with GW's infantry (10 Elysians are $11au more than 10 Cadians). One more price hike and it should be about right.

With the end result of Australians having the finest looking armies around. It's all part of GW's master plan to make it the most stylish 40k country on the planet.

Their shipping policy still irritates me, therefore I make a point of ordering small things where they're obviously losing money on shipping, and i get quite the bargain on shipping. Especially since to get their "free shipping," I'm in the threshold of being whacked by duties and UPS fees for duties, which can equal $150 or more if one is particularly unlucky.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

Their shipping policy still irritates me, therefore I make a point of ordering small things where they're obviously losing money on shipping, and i get quite the bargain on shipping. Especially since to get their "free shipping," I'm in the threshold of being whacked by duties and UPS fees for duties, which can equal $150 or more if one is particularly unlucky.

I realized that duties applied the first time I gleefully managed to get their "free shipping". It was so much more expensive after that (and conversion rate, plus bank fees) I should've just split my order into two and called it a day. I feel as though FW is really just meant for the British players.

Overall I'm happy enough for them to bring out new MCs, the dreadknight was cool, but I feel the wraithknight is just too large. Mainly I just compare new ones to tyranid MCs as for me, they've always been the MC army. But the wraithknight is just huge next to all of them, so up to a dreadknight size I felt was good, but the most recent one was overdoing it a bit. As far as future releases go, IG have to get one of these:

Same statline as a dreadknight (but WS/BS 3) and with 2 quad guns... 50pts each seems fair...

And I would have to agree on FW prices becoming better (relatively) even in NZ. Plus currency changes help, the 250 pound warhound titan used to be 750NZD, now it isn't even 500... still haven't got one though

 Enigwolf wrote:
I realized that duties applied the first time I gleefully managed to get their "free shipping". It was so much more expensive after that (and conversion rate, plus bank fees) I should've just split my order into two and called it a day. I feel as though FW is really just meant for the British players.

Forgeworld aren't responsible for your country's customs charges. Depending on where you are, and how much you order, it's not always that bad.

 insaniak wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I realized that duties applied the first time I gleefully managed to get their "free shipping". It was so much more expensive after that (and conversion rate, plus bank fees) I should've just split my order into two and called it a day. I feel as though FW is really just meant for the British players.

Forgeworld aren't responsible for your country's customs charges. Depending on where you are, and how much you order, it's not always that bad.

The problem is they use UPS by default for their "free shipping," and while the duties alone aren't earth-shattering, the UPS charges for processing the duties are. In canada, if customs chooses to assay a forgeworld order at the free shipping margin, they'll charge you about $40 or so, and UPS will then charge you $76 on top of the $40 from customs.

Your ~$350 order is now $480 or so, whereas if you broke it up into, say, $60 increments, you'll pay about $50 in shipping. $50 seems a lot better across the same value than what amounts to $120 or more.

Of course, if you're lucky, customs won't check your package; they're very inconsistent and under-staffed, so it's down to the judgement of the officer in question as to whether its worth it, so you can roll the dice and save yourself some money, but with such a high value, there's pretty good odds they'll ding you. So, do you feel lucky?

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I realized that duties applied the first time I gleefully managed to get their "free shipping". It was so much more expensive after that (and conversion rate, plus bank fees) I should've just split my order into two and called it a day. I feel as though FW is really just meant for the British players.

Forgeworld aren't responsible for your country's customs charges. Depending on where you are, and how much you order, it's not always that bad.

The problem is they use UPS by default for their "free shipping," and while the duties alone aren't earth-shattering, the UPS charges for processing the duties are. In canada, if customs chooses to assay a forgeworld order at the free shipping margin, they'll charge you about $40 or so, and UPS will then charge you $76 on top of the $40 from customs.

Your ~$350 order is now $480 or so, whereas if you broke it up into, say, $60 increments, you'll pay about $50 in shipping. $50 seems a lot better across the same value than what amounts to $120 or more.

Of course, if you're lucky, customs won't check your package; they're very inconsistent and under-staffed, so it's down to the judgement of the officer in question as to whether its worth it, so you can roll the dice and save yourself some money, but with such a high value, there's pretty good odds they'll ding you. So, do you feel lucky?

This. In my home country, the customs charges are further stacked on top of another sales tax, and they never miss a shipment. I end up breaking all my packages down to save on shipping, which doesn't make sense of why it should be cheaper for me this way, but I'm not complaining.

Edit: Also, happy 600th post! *pats self on back*