Spartan's Uncharted Seas becoming mail order only (no distribution)

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**kenshin620**

I always kind of knew Uncharted Seas was the backburner game for Spartan. Looks like tis really in the back though

From the announcement:

When Spartan Games entered the wargaming market in mid-2008, we launched with our Uncharted Seas fantasy naval game. We were a very small company then: we didn’t have any offices and we didn’t even cast the models ourselves, but we felt that Uncharted Seas breathed new life into naval wargaming and we were proud of it.

Almost five years later, things are very different for us. We’ve grown significantly from our modest beginnings and now employ world-class model designers and model makers whose skill and creativity have led to games such as Dystopian Wars, Dystopian Legions and Firestorm Armada. We look to make each game better than the last and we’ve certainly learned a lot in those five years, and as we’ve learned to make better games with better models, players have embraced these new games, often at the expense of Uncharted Seas.

Our people have got lots of great ideas that we want to keep bringing you, but we recognise that Spartan Games – and just as importantly the wargames market itself – can only support so many games through an indirect sales model. Although we re-sculpted Uncharted Seas 18 months ago, incorporating all the skills we’ve learned in model design and making since the original launch, customers’ interest has moved to our other games.

Because of these factors we have taken the difficult decision to discontinue Uncharted Seas from distribution from July 1st 2013; thereafter it will continue to be sold mail order only. Whilst we understand that deleting a game brings about issues for our customers, we feel that it is the right thing to do and we hope you understand the above reasons. The coming months will see more new and exciting initiatives from Spartan Games – starting with the launch of Spartan Scenics that we announced earlier this week – which we look forward to bringing to you, and I would like to take this opportunity to thank you on behalf of all at Spartan Games for your valued business.

Kind regards

Gary

**scarletsquig**

This isn't really surprising, Spartan seems to release a new game every 6 months or so.. it was only a matter of time before the "new shiny" resulted in some of their older games being retired.

**cygnnus**

I can't believe GW is shutting down Specialist Games, don't they have any respect for their older lines...

Oh, wait, wrong thread...

I kid... I kid...

Valete,

JohnS

**cincydooley**

Queue the unrelented hatred and vitriol that a beloved product line will not longer be available through the LGS.

/sarcasm

**Riquende**

Although we re-sculpted Uncharted Seas 18 months ago, incorporating all the skills we’ve learned in model design and making since the original launch, customers’ interest has moved to our other games.

Yeah, weird that. You stopped releasing anything new for the game, missed the date for the expansion book without any explanation (it never did get written as far as I know), and spent months and months pouring resources into remaking the range just so customers could buy... the exact same ships they already owned, but with some sculpted icons on the hulls. Wonder why that particular stroke of genius didn't work out... Funny how when games companies remove their lines its always framed as the customers' fault for not being that into it.

**GBL**

cincydooley wrote:
Queue the unrelented hatred and vitriol that a beloved product line will not longer be available through the LGS.

/sarcasm

Its not a beloved product line. I keep hearing about how it supposedly has the worst rules of all their games, with the latest dystopian wars having the most thoroughly thought out rules so far. It is certainly no Mordheim.

**Agamemnon2**

It'll be interesting to see if this trend continues with Spartan's other lines. They have a real flavor-of-the-month air with all of their different games

**BobtheInquisitor**

cincydooley wrote:
Queue the unrelented hatred and vitriol that a beloved product line will not longer be available through the LGS.

/sarcasm

Actually, I'm kind of ticked about it. I've been buying the ships here and there with spare funds at the FLGS or for a discount at the War Store. (I'm buying them for Dreadfleet. You heard me.) Now I won't be able to buy the ships with spare cash, store credit, or a reasonable discount online. This pretty much kills the product line for me.

I'm starting to have the same issues with Firestorm Armada.

**cincydooley**

GBL wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
Queue the unrelented hatred and vitriol that a beloved product line will not longer be available through the LGS.

/sarcasm

Its not a beloved product line. I keep hearing about how it supposedly has the worst rules of all their games, with the latest dystopian wars having the most thoroughly thought out rules so far. It is certainly no Mordheim.

Congrats on missing the point of my whole post. Well done.

All of the Dystopian Wars systems exist because of Uncharted Seas. They're just more complicated. Believe it or not, some people enjoy simplicity over complexity.

**doc1234**

Can't say i'm surprised, but doesn't mean it's not a disappointment. Granted UC seems to have become the red-headed stepchild of SG along with firestorm:planetfall. Though I suppose mail order only is better than discontinuing it completely.

**Duncan_Idaho**

Releasing Firestorm Invasion in three different sizes is also not the brightest idea....

Some more focus and foreign language books would help alot.

**Ronin_eX**

This is my complete lack of surprise. They always seem to be ready to move to the next best thing. Considering the poor reception of the FSA 2nd Edition rulebook, I fear it may be next.

Though not seeing it in LGS's wont be a huge deal. What it really signals is that they probably wont develop it anymore either. Then in a few years when it stops being self-sustaining (cost of making new moulds outweighs expected sales), they can offer up a teary-eyed email about how the players just didn't care to promote a game that had seen no real development in years.

This seems like the a classic example of producing more products than you can sustain while vehemently denying that you can't sustain them, ignoring a product line for months/years to cries of the community saying "we want more releases! We can't promote a dead game!" then blaming the community for not buying and promoting a game that had stagnated. A resculpting drive eighteen months ago followed by ignoring the line again doesn't really strike me as anything more than a token effort. Unless it was followed by some real promotion of the line, all of those fence sitters waiting for US to re-emerge were just going to keep sitting or were going to hop off and go somewhere else. Now they all know that US isn't coming back so the final end to the line can't be too far off. Sad to see their very first game fade away like this.

Oh well, US players can join the MoW community in wishing there was a well-supported fantasy naval combat game I suppose. Kind of crappy for them and it is another one of those straws that is slowly beginning to overburden my camel in regards to giving Spartan my money (not that I have grabbed anything from them since picking up the French starter box at release).

**JWhex**

Disapointed but not surprised. This is exactly why I refuse to buy into new miniature game systems. The products are too short term for all the effort of painting them and making scenery.

As others have said, they did not manage or support this line very well and I do regret all the ships I bought. I wont make that mistake again, for all their faults, I know that 40k and fantasy are likely to be around for as long as I am.

I am not going to support any more small games companies, just not worth the risk.

**privateer4hire**

scarletsquig wrote:
This isn't really surprising, Spartan seems to release a new game every 6 months or so.. it was only a matter of time before the "new shiny" resulted in some of their older games being retired.[/quote

Scarlet Squig, Like you, I'm a fan of Mantic but I hope you can see the irony in your post, complete with DeadZone Kickstarter link and image advert

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weird quote thing I just did :/

**Bolognesus**

privateer4hire wrote:
scarletsquig wrote:
This isn't really surprising, Spartan seems to release a new game every 6 months or so.. it was only a matter of time before the "new shiny" resulted in some of their older games being retired.

Scarlet Squig, Like you, I'm a fan of Mantic but I hope you can see the irony in your post, complete with DeadZone Kickstarter link and image advert

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weird quote thing I just did :/

Yeah, you missed a closing bracket in the first /quote block

On topic: keep in mind mantic will only hit it's fourth 'set' game with deadzone: KoW, WP, DB, DZ. Loka is just something they distribute, DKH were intended as boxed, little or no expansion board games as was project pandora and mars attacks will probably go that same way.
Mantic is keeping a pretty tight focus in which systems get active support; also, I'd say DB will in a couple of months have three seasons of models which are 'finished', a good, complete set which doesn't 'miss' anything really. Now show me where mantic have abandoned a ruleset or a bunch of minis and we'll talk; until then, I'm quite confident DB will at least be supported by ongoing availability at the very least (and really, how many bloody races do you want? I kind of think twelve is a little much to keep a tight competition, but it's doable. more would be insane - which is why DBE would be a somewhat separate game not for direct bolt-on use against existing teams, I think).

**Riquende**

JWhex wrote:
Disapointed but not surprised. This is exactly why I refuse to buy into new miniature game systems. The products are too short term for all the effort of painting them and making scenery.

As others have said, they did not manage or support this line very well and I do regret all the ships I bought. I wont make that mistake again, for all their faults, I know that 40k and fantasy are likely to be around for as long as I am.

I am not going to support any more small games companies, just not worth the risk.

Sorry, but this is a terrible, terrible attitude to have, if enough people thought like this no new system would ever get off the ground.

Speaking more specifically (though it generally holds true), you could buy a decent small fleet for Uncharted Seas for £50, easily. Hardly an earth-shattering investment. I definitely don't regret the ships for the two fleets I've bought, as regardless of future Spartan support I know I can play the game if the opportunity ever comes up again, plus they brought a bit of variety to my painting table (and will bring a bit of variety to my display case). I also feel as well that playing many different games, even ones that have died (or may as well have) has really enriched my gaming experiences, in terms of the myriad ways wargames play out with wildy varying rulesets.

**Vertrucio**

Yep, I can't willingly recommend anything from Spartan anymore. They're a bit like Mongoose now.

They push out something way that's flashy, but incomplete or broken, get some income, then abandon it or only halfheartedly support it.

Retail stores are littered with their discarded merchandise.

**Zweischneid**

Well, at least they are honest and up-front saying that it simply doesn't sell.

I also think Mantic Games is a different beast, though not necessarily because of the number of games.

What Mantic Game (and a few others) does right - and what far too many of the others out there miss - is making an effort to not just start games, but to start gaming communities for these games.

I could go to some kind of Kings of War event or DreadBall tournament or whatever nearly every weekend here in the UK Midlands. Mantic's tinkering on some DreadBall super-tournament at the end of the year with qualifiers all year long, including with Partners like TableTopNation, etc.. . Mantic's event-list on their website is crammed with dates. They hand out all kinds of organizer-packages and goodies, etc.. .

I haven't seen anything similar from Spartan, Mongoose, etc.. (if they did it, it was well-hidden from my eyes at least).

Warhammer 40K is famously sticky, despite many complaints, because you can get a game almost anywhere you go. In that sense, GW is still benefiting from the community-building they used to do. "Only" releasing games and miniatures and hoping they'll spread likely isn't going to work in most cases. It could happen, if you're lucky, but I wouldn't bank a business on it.

**doc1234**

In fairness Zweischneid spartan did host a DW tournament a few months back and if I recall have eyes to look towards more. Problem is DW takes a damn long time to play sometimes, not all that handy for the tourney format.

Also going to say I can't see them dropping firestorm. Considering how invested in it they are, even if it isn't as invested as with DW, it'd be a loss that would hurt them. The only thing "wrong" with that was trying to force the DW rules into the FS:A format. It'd be like GW asking you to play warhammer fantasy with 40K rules. Could roughly work, but it'd be a nightmare. If they admit the FS:A rules don't work and give the rules one last go it could start doing a lot better.

**jgemrich**

Well, my decision what to do with my fleets becomes a bit easier now.

First, I love Uncharted, mostly for its uncomplicated ruleset that actually has a ton of tactical options which rely on your ability to move models into the appropriate position to give yourself a chance at winning.

Chance. Yes, the game has a ton of dice randomness but as long as your P3nis length isn't tied to the results of your war game, who really cared. The games I played were fun and exciting. When it was obvious the game was destined for tier 3 (hell tier 4 with dystopian legions) I set it aside waiting on a stable ruleset. Well, I guess the stability is there. I'd love to get some of the newer fleets but was never sure online whether I was buying the new or old stock so didn't order it.

**Riquende**

doc1234 wrote:
Also going to say I can't see them dropping firestorm.

I think FS:A might be getting a stay of execution to see if interest picks up in a post-BFG world.

**privateer4hire**

Mantic Games:
DreadBall (3 seasons of stuff in the works; 2nd book out)
WarPath (on 2.0 version)
Kings of War (about to get additional books)
DeadZone
Project Pandora
Dwarf Kings Hold (plus 2 expansions)
Loka (distributed only but appears to the casual looker as a Mantic property)

Again, really like most Mantic stuff but they are just as prolific , if not more, than Spartan Games esp once you start considering expansions, rapidly updated rules versions, etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zweischneid wrote:
...What Mantic Game (and a few others) does right - and what far too many of the others out there miss - is making an effort to not just start games, but to start gaming communities for these games.

I could go to some kind of Kings of War event or DreadBall tournament or whatever nearly every weekend here in the UK Midlands. Mantic's tinkering on some DreadBall super-tournament at the end of the year with qualifiers all year long, including with Partners like TableTopNation, etc.. . Mantic's event-list on their website is crammed with dates. They hand out all kinds of organizer-packages and goodies, etc.. . ...

Excellent points from your entire post.
Only addition I would make is the need for Mantic community to better develop in US, a potentially very large market.

GW is commonly believed to be alienating customers/potential customers.
If this is a misplay somebody/somebodies could greatly expand their company's standing.

Completely get that Mantic are busy with all their development.
They need to grow their US support (e.g., no Pathfinders currently in US) and community to better expand.

Again, a fan of Mantic but not putting petrol in the tank while being religious about keeping the engine oil topped off could eventually leave you stranded on the side of the road.

**cincydooley**

Can't say I've ever heard an American use the word petrol before.

I think Mantic has a long way to go to get really entrenched, community wise, in US, but Ronnie makes sure that he's at all the Major US conventions, so that helps.

**privateer4hire**

Used petrol because I were responding to a European poster

**Zond**

Well, played Uncharted Seas once and hated the crazy randomness. Models are great however. As with more Spartan games, I'll pick up the nice models for painting purposes and bitch and whine when my friends actually want to game with the ruleset.

**Killionaire**

It's not models or support that's Spartan's fault. If anything, they're pretty good about those. Their models are gorgeous and dirt cheap, with a very low buy-in for a 'full' game.

Support in terms of customer and business is pretty good as far as the industry goes.

What fails is RULES. Why? Because Spartan Games didn't have 3 games. It had 1. Uncharted Seas, Firestorm and Dystopian Wars are the same game, with a slightly different skin. Why would you play Uncharted, if Dystopian Wars exists, besides whatever fluff reason? It's the same game. Only DW is better and more developed.

Firestorm's always had the worst ruleset. Maneuver didn't matter, terrain didn't matter, you just moved into range and hammered your opponent.

Dystopian having 'fixed' version of the naval rules (better fire arc rules, turret targetting, multiple weapons) made it finally a mostly complete game. If only it had factional cards like US, then it'd be pretty much all of the best rules from Spartan's existing set.

US meanwhile, competed with DW, and vice versa. It's too much overlap. A result of Spartan starting originally with a fan running a business, and writing rules, despite not being a businessman or designer.

**Bolognesus**

privateer4hire wrote:
Mantic Games:
DreadBall (3 seasons of stuff in the works; 2nd book out)
WarPath (on 2.0 version)
Kings of War (about to get additional books)
DeadZone
Project Pandora
Dwarf Kings Hold (plus 2 expansions)
Loka (distributed only but appears to the casual looker as a Mantic property)

Again, really like most Mantic stuff but they are just as prolific , if not more, than Spartan Games esp once you start considering expansions, rapidly updated rules versions, etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zweischneid wrote:
...What Mantic Game (and a few others) does right - and what far too many of the others out there miss - is making an effort to not just start games, but to start gaming communities for these games.

I could go to some kind of Kings of War event or DreadBall tournament or whatever nearly every weekend here in the UK Midlands. Mantic's tinkering on some DreadBall super-tournament at the end of the year with qualifiers all year long, including with Partners like TableTopNation, etc.. . Mantic's event-list on their website is crammed with dates. They hand out all kinds of organizer-packages and goodies, etc.. . ...

Excellent points from your entire post.
Only addition I would make is the need for Mantic community to better develop in US, a potentially very large market.

GW is commonly believed to be alienating customers/potential customers.
If this is a misplay somebody/somebodies could greatly expand their company's standing.

Completely get that Mantic are busy with all their development.
They need to grow their US support (e.g., no Pathfinders currently in US) and community to better expand.

Again, a fan of Mantic but not putting petrol in the tank while being religious about keeping the engine oil topped off could eventually leave you stranded on the side of the road.

Did you read past the first line of my post? DKH, PP and Loka are not meanr to receive continuous support - they're standalones meant as such. Rather disingenuous of you, to say the least.

**Backfire**

privateer4hire wrote:
Used petrol because I were responding to a European poster

You should have used the word "bensin"

I don't play Spartan Games, but I've always wondered why they have so many different, yet similar, games. Seems to me if you're really serious getting something over with the players, you concentrate on one thing and do it well - models, rules, background.

**silent25**

Sad to see it go onto the back burner. Have a Ralgard fleet that I enjoy. Knew the game wasn't that popular though when the Spartan Games forum relaunched and the UCS forum was to lightest one. Big shame because there was a lot of nice paint schemes that were lost to the old forum :(

**privateer4hire**

Bolognesus said: "...Did you read past the first line of my post? DKH, PP and Loka are not meanr to receive continuous support - they're standalones meant as such. Rather disingenuous of you, to say the least. "

Yep. I read your complete post. Also I was not responding solely to you as there are other folks in this thread.
My response was not disingenuous at all. Your choice on what you infer, though.

I was pointing out that both companies have made several games in a very short time.
Both companies also have annoyed at least a portion of their fan base by rapidly shifting focus.
Both companies could benefit from backing off slightly from the shotgun spray pattern with a machine gun's rate of fire IMHO.

Also, I'm not advocating for a ton of new DB races. In fact, DB has run through 2 expansions at lightning speed and we're having trouble getting folks started on the basic game + FFs and Veer-Myn teams.
They seem to think everyone is in from the KickStarter release when it takes weeks/months past that for FGSs in the states to get their stuff.