Boy Scouts to vote on lifting ban on gay youths today.

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**MrMoustaffa**

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/23/us/boy-scouts-sexual-orientation/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

Article spoiled for those who are work blocked.

Spoiler:

CNN wrote:(CNN) -- The eyes of the country are upon Texas today.

That's where 1,400 members of the Boy Scouts of America's National Council are voting on whether to end the 103-year-old group's outright ban on gay youths.

The outcome, to be announced in the late afternoon, follows months of intense debate among interest groups and within the ranks of Scouting itself.

It comes down to a single sentence at the end of a resolution: "No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone."

If the policy change is approved, the BSA will maintain its ban on openly gay adult leaders.

In February, the Boy Scouts' national executive board postponed a vote on the issue and ordered a survey of its members. That survey showed an organization divided by age and, in some cases, by region.

While most adults in the Scouting community support the BSA's current policy of "excluding open and avowed homosexuals, young parents and teens tend to oppose the policy."

A BSA spokesman called the issue "among the most complex and challenging issues facing the BSA and society today."

A recent Washington Post-ABC News Poll showed that 63% of Americans said they would support allowing gay youths to join the Boy Scouts.

But 61% of surveyed adult members said they support the current BSA policy, which excludes gay youths and adult leaders, the group said.

The vote comes more than a decade after the Supreme Court ruled that the organization has the right to keep out gays but also at a time of declining participation in the American institution.

Membership in Boy Scouts has declined by about a third since 1999. About 2.7 million people now participate nationwide.

The Boy Scouts relies on "chartered organizations" to provide facilities and sponsorship for the individual units.

More than 70% of troops are affiliated with a church or religious groups. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Catholic Church sponsor 43% of troops in the country.

In April, the Utah-based Mormons said, "while the church has not launched any campaign either to effect or prevent a policy change, we have followed the discussion and are satisfied that BSA has made a thoughtful, good-faith effort to address issues."

The vote could have an impact in at least two Western states.

The heavily Mormon-populated states of Utah and Idaho reported that if a unilateral change in the policy were to be made, 97% of chartered organizations would probably leave the organization. The proposal that will be voted on Thursday would allow gay Scouts but forbid gay leaders, so it is unclear how many Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints churches would leave under those conditions.

The Catholic Church in the United States says it will strive to maintain ties with the BSA, regardless of the outcome.

"We would hope that the Boy Scouts of America will continue to provide young people a formative experience grounded in virtue and directed by service to God and others," the National Catholic Committee on Scouting said in February.

A full picture of opinions was not captured in the survey, according to the BSA.

"When the survey process was originally announced, several chartered organizations, including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Baptist church, and many parents asked that their youth members not be contacted as part of the survey."

There's been no shortage of lobbying on the issue, which will be taken up at the BSA's annual meeting in Grapevine, Texas.

"This ban hurts kids and undermines key scouting values like helpfulness, friendliness and courteousness," says the Human Rights Campaign. "It's time to send a message of inclusion -- not discrimination."

James Dale, an Eagle Scout and former assistant troop leader who was kicked out of the Boy Scouts in 1990 because he is gay, criticized the proposal to continue the ban on adult leaders who are gay.

"The Boy Scouts have ruled with a tight fist and said that no gay member can be a part of the Boy Scouts, whether youth or adult," he said. "So, likewise, if they are going to end this policy, they need to end it from the top down and say 'we as the Boy Scouts of America are against discrimination.' "

In an opinion piece for USA Today on Wednesday, BSA President Wayne Perry endorsed the policy change. "Parents, adults in the Scouting community and teens alike tend to agree that youth should not be denied the benefits of Scouting," Perry wrote. "The resolution is not about adults; it is about what is best for young people."

Conservative groups and some religious organizations have argued against making any change, saying it would dilute the Boy Scout message of morality and potentially destroy the organization.

The Family Research Council says the vote is "critically important to the future of the Scouts and the moral fiber of our nation."

It urged people to visit OnMyHonor.net, a group opposing the policy change, to send their thoughts to Scout leaders and executives.

That website reposted an article by the president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, who said the BSA was "at the brink."

"For the last few decades, the Boy Scouts have had to fight battles with both secularists and homosexual activists," wrote R. Albert Mohler Jr.

"How, exactly, are openly gay boys to be included in the activities of scouting? We are talking about boys who will now be expected to participate in everything from camping trips to travel with boys who are openly gay," Mohler said. "Boys of these ages just might be the least equipped of all God's creatures to deal with the complexities of the situation. Most parents are likely to decide that, all things considered, this is just not something they want imposed on their sons."

President Barack Obama has been become outspoken in his support of gay rights and same-sex marriage.

When asked about the BSA policy in February, White House spokesman Jay Carney said Obama believes the Boy Scouts is a valuable organization that has helped educate and build character in American boys.

"He also, as you know, opposes discrimination in all forms. And as such, believes that gay Americans ought to be able to participate in the Boy Scouts. But in terms of the process of their evaluation of their policies, I don't have a comment."

If approved, the new BSA rules would take effect on January 1.

Not sure how many Dakka members were/are scouts, but if you've had anything to do with the program you know this is a huge issue. The Boy Scouts of America is literally damned if they do lift the ban, and damned if they don't. The ban, for those wondering, would only be lifted on homosexual youths entering the organization. Even if this measure passes, homosexual males will still be banned from being leaders in the program.

If the ban is lifted, the BSA stands to lose millions in donations, thousands of churches that host troops, and suffer potential backlash from parents. It could literally kill the program. It also adds in a degree of hippocracy to the organization, as religion is a key part of it. How can you claim you're faithful to religious beliefs when you're allowing people in who actively defy some of your more important teachings (this stands true for Christian troops at least) And since churches are the primary organizations that host boyscout troops, this is a big deal.

If they don't lift the ban, they'll be labeled as a discriminatory organization (which would be true sadly) earning them massive heat from civil rights groups, putting a mark against the program, and severely hurting scouts who are still in. For example, kids working on their Eagle Scout projects have been getting rejected right and left by businesses that used to have no problem donating hundreds of dollars in equipment or services. Why? Because if Lowe's, Walmart, or any other even remotely high profile business were caught donating to an organization that discriminated against people, it'd be a publicity nightmare. As a result, good and honest scouts are getting hurt over something they have nothing to do with. This isn't conjecture, this is actually happening. My brother was turned down by multiple businesses that donated to me no questions asked for this very reason.

As an Eagle Scout, this has been extremely painful to watch. I know an Eagle Scout who is gay and has kept it secret for years so he wouldn't lose his rank. I've worked at scout camps where I knew some of the scouts I was teaching and leading were homosexual, but they had to keep it quiet or they could be thrown out of the program. They deserve to be a scout as much as anybody else, and they earned the ranks they got just like I did.

What hurts the most though is that I see no good outcome of this situation. No matter what the BSA does, people will be furious. There is no easy way out, no perfect solution, nothing. They will lose support somewhere. There will be parents who will be furious and will pull their children from the program. The BSA will get raked over the coals by one news agency or other based on which way they lean. And when people get angry, it won't be the higher ups who will shoulder the brunt of the anger. It'll be the poor scouts trying to sell popcorn, or the kid trying to finish his Eagle Project, or the group of kids hiking out in the woods.

Maybe I'm just overthinking this, though. Maybe they'll lift the ban, the churches will keep their troops all the same, and everything will work out fine. I just hate to see an organization that's done so much good in the world literally getting torn apart over this issue. And of course, once they're done with this issue, they need to figure out what they'll do over non religious scouts (which believe it or not, being an atheist can cost you your Eagle Scout rank)

**Goliath**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
If the ban is lifted, the BSA stands to lose millions in donations, thousands of churches that host troops, and suffer potential backlash from parents. It could literally kill the program. It also adds in a degree of hippocracy to the organization, as religion is a key part of it. How can you claim you're faithful to religious beliefs when you're allowing people in who actively defy some of your more important teachings (this stands true for Christian troops at least) And since churches are the primary organizations that host boyscout troops, this is a big deal.

So now, rather than "Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”, the more important teachings of christianity are "Eww Gays"?

Really?

**hotsauceman1**

I remember scouts, Never made it to eagle because the only program where i was was a morman one, where they get extremely religious in the later part(All scout programs are like this)
I think the religious part is what kills it, I remember an employer saying that he gives eagle scouts first consideration for employment and drop outs last, which made me ineligable, and many others who didnt even go. Scouting is expensive so many people cannot afford it. I think the value we place on it is extremely overhyped and useless.

**Howard A Treesong**

Well obviously gay men and boys are a risk to the other scouts, after all, they're probably paedophiles hoping to take advantage of them on camping trips.

**The Bringer**

Goliath wrote:

So now, rather than "Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”

My thoughts exactly.

Anyways, don't Churches have better things to do with their money?

The BSA is a great cause and all, but surely there are better ones out their for religious groups to donate to?

**purplefood**

The Bringer wrote:
Goliath wrote:

So now, rather than "Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”

My thoughts exactly.

Anyways, don't Churches have better things to do with their money?

The BSA is a great cause and all, but surely there are better ones out their for religious groups to donate to?

Yeah but then they wouldn't be able to indoctrinate the youth as effectively...

**Ouze**

I was a scout, and have no problem with gay scouts in the organization.

In 1916, the Boy Scouts started the first Negro scout troop, as it was called, despite horrific opposition. In keeping with the times, it was nor a perfect integration, but eventually the Boy Scouts rose to meet the challenge of teaching boys about how to tie knots, survive in the wilderness, the fundamentals of self sufficiency, and so forth regardless of the color of their skin. I'm confident that the organization will again rise to meet this challenge.

**MrMoustaffa**

Goliath wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:
If the ban is lifted, the BSA stands to lose millions in donations, thousands of churches that host troops, and suffer potential backlash from parents. It could literally kill the program. It also adds in a degree of hippocracy to the organization, as religion is a key part of it. How can you claim you're faithful to religious beliefs when you're allowing people in who actively defy some of your more important teachings (this stands true for Christian troops at least) And since churches are the primary organizations that host boyscout troops, this is a big deal.

So now, rather than "Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”, the more important teachings of christianity are "Eww Gays"?

Really?

There are churches that would do it.

That's also why I'm not as nearly religious as I used to be

**Ouze**

Also, the ban has been lifted.

**hotsauceman1**

Good, Now they will have to adapt or fade into obscurity.

**Alfndrate**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
I remember scouts, Never made it to eagle because the only program where i was was a morman one, where they get extremely religious in the later part(All scout programs are like this)
I think the religious part is what kills it, I remember an employer saying that he gives eagle scouts first consideration for employment and drop outs last, which made me ineligable, and many others who didnt even go. Scouting is expensive so many people cannot afford it. I think the value we place on it is extremely overhyped and useless.

Please edit your post, I got through the higher parts of scouting without getting a religious emblem beyond the age of 15. If your program was one related to the Latter Day Saints, that is their choice and that Troops specific choice. Yes technically to advance through Star, Life, and to Eagle, you had to live the Scout Law in your daily life (the 12th point is Reverent, the 13th point is Hungry, and the 14th point is Duct Tape), but as long as you were at least agnostic you could skate by on reverence. Like the old camp staff joke goes... "Scouting is a safe haven, unless you're gay or an atheist" which ironically enough was first told to me by a CIT who is gay an an atheist. Small world.

Glad the scouts finally wised up, but they're projected to lose 10% of the scouting population over this decision though, which sucks because those boys just as much as the gay boys that wanted to learn from scouting, could probably use the ideals scouting teaches.

Edit: Should be noted that before this ban, you could not be considered gay until you were 18, because until you were 18 you were still growing and confused. This is a bupkiss argument, but it allowed many of my friends to stay in the program. Also note, gay leaders, still not allowed...

**Evil Lamp 6**

Alfndrate wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
I remember scouts, Never made it to eagle because the only program where i was was a morman one, where they get extremely religious in the later part(All scout programs are like this)
I think the religious part is what kills it, I remember an employer saying that he gives eagle scouts first consideration for employment and drop outs last, which made me ineligable, and many others who didnt even go. Scouting is expensive so many people cannot afford it. I think the value we place on it is extremely overhyped and useless.

Please edit your post, I got through the higher parts of scouting without getting a religious emblem beyond the age of 15. If your program was one related to the Latter Day Saints, that is their choice and that Troops specific choice. Yes technically to advance through Star, Life, and to Eagle, you had to live the Scout Law in your daily life (the 12th point is Reverent, the 13th point is Hungry, and the 14th point is Duct Tape), but as long as you were at least agnostic you could skate by on reverence. Like the old camp staff joke goes... "Scouting is a safe haven, unless you're gay or an atheist" which ironically enough was first told to me by a CIT who is gay an an atheist. Small world.

Glad the scouts finally wised up, but they're projected to lose 10% of the scouting population over this decision though, which sucks because those boys just as much as the gay boys that wanted to learn from scouting, could probably use the ideals scouting teaches.

Edit: Should be noted that before this ban, you could not be considered gay until you were 18, because until you were 18 you were still growing and confused. This is a bupkiss argument, but it allowed many of my friends to stay in the program. Also note, gay leaders, still not allowed...

Seconded. I made Eagle in my Troop just fine without really any of the religious focus that has been presented here. Maybe our Troop was more progressive than others at its time, but religion was never a big part of our Scouting experience. We weren't directly (or even indirectly that I am aware of) supported by a church or other religious organization.

I am pleased with this development and think that it is at least partially spurred by the U.S. military elimination of DADT policy.

**Melissia**

Ouze wrote:
Also, the ban has been lifted.

Though the organization has its own problems (lesser in most ways than the BSA), the Girl Scouts of America has this stance for some time now (22-ish years):
http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/gsusa.html#statement

As a private organization, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. respects the values and beliefs of each of its members and does not intrude into personal matters. Therefore, there are no membership policies on sexual preference. However, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. has firm standards relating to the appropriate conduct of adult volunteers and staff. The Girl Scout organization does not condone or permit sexual displays of any sort by its members during Girl Scout activities, nor does it permit the advocacy or promotion of a personal lifestyle or sexual preference. These are private matters for girls and their families to address.

Emphasis by me-- do not advocate either heterosexuality or homosexuality, because neither one is within the bounds of the organization. Quite simply, it is none of their business, and they recognize that and respect it. Similarly, the girl scouts accept transgender people who identify as girls, and whose family present as girls to the scouts. "For 100 years, Girl Scouts has prided itself on being an inclusive organization serving girls from all walks of life. We handle cases involving transgender children on a case-by-case basis, with a focus on ensuring the welfare and best interests of the child in question and the other girls in the troop as our highest priority."

Perhaps the Boy Scouts of America have come to realize that this is by far a better approach. If so, good for them.

**hotsauceman1**

It was indeed latter day saints, But they where the only troop near us, so it made eagle impossible for me

**Relapse**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
It was indeed latter day saints, But they where the only troop near us, so it made eagle impossible for me

It had to have been troop specific. I live in Utah, have been a Packmaster, and have my boy in the local Boy Scout troop. We never blocked anyone's advancement to the highest ranks no matter their religion.

**Asherian Command**

I am quite happy with this decision.
As an Eagle Scout. I had threatened to give them my Eagle Badge until they came to a decision. At least they did. Finally.

**hotsauceman1**

Relapse wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
It was indeed latter day saints, But they where the only troop near us, so it made eagle impossible for me

It had to have been troop specific. I live in Utah, have been a Packmaster, and have my boy in the local Boy Scout troop. We never blocked anyone's advancement to the highest ranks no matter their religion.

It was like that here. It involved going into the temple so i couldnt.

**Chongara**

Looks like they've made the right choice. It's better to limp towards the right side of history than die a slow death by refusing to leave the wrong one.

**Relapse**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Relapse wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
It was indeed latter day saints, But they where the only troop near us, so it made eagle impossible for me

It had to have been troop specific. I live in Utah, have been a Packmaster, and have my boy in the local Boy Scout troop. We never blocked anyone's advancement to the highest ranks no matter their religion.

It was like that here. It involved going into the temple so i couldnt.

Something is funky then if what you say is true. I would complain to the people in charge in your area because that is totaly not right for that troop to do.

**hotsauceman1**

Quite frankly, They wanted me out the second i got there, They where ALL morman and didnt like me there, The fellow boy scouts atleast did, I was glad to leave.

**Relapse**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Quite frankly, They wanted me out the second i got there, They where ALL morman and didnt like me there, The fellow boy scouts atleast did, I was glad to leave.

Sorry you got into a group like that, but I still say let the council leadership know what goes on with that troop because if what you say is true, they are a disgrace and need to be dealt with.

**hotsauceman1**

After 7 years?

**Relapse**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
After 7 years?

Didn't realize it was that long ago. There was definitely something whacked with that outfit.

**MrMoustaffa**

Got some interesting reactions talking to a guy I know when the ban was lifted. He said something along the lines of "I feel my Eagle has been cheapened. A major point of being a scout is being religious (he's a christian) Homosexuality is explicitly forbidden as part of my faith and allowing it while saying a scout can still be reverent feels like hypocrisy." And as much as I hate it, he has a point. Not that I agree with it, but it's one you're going to be hearing a lot over the next few days I'd bet.

Boy Scouts is a private organization, and regardless of how religious your troop may have been, it is a religious organization as a whole. Would you force the Catholic Church to allow homosexual men to be the pope, because it's discriminatory to deny them? When their religion clearly states that yes, that's something they're not allowed to do or encourage? When they're a private organization that technically could deny you entry for whatever reason they felt like? I realize what I'm saying right now is going to come across as extremely offensive to some people, but it's a valid point. The Boy Scouts of America is a religious organization, and a private one at that. They can allow or deny entry to whomever they want, for whatever reasoning they wish, no matter how politically correct it may be. It is not the equivalent of the high school football team, where anyone who wants to join is to be allowed regardless of their lifestyle. The BSA is a private institution and as a result can technically refuse membership however they see fit.

In the eyes of people who opposed lifting the ban, allowing homosexuals or atheists into the scouting program erodes the mission of what scouting tries to accomplish, and to be brutally honest, they're right (partly). How are you reverent when you ignore a clear rule of your god (homosexuality is a sin)? How can you be reverent if you don't believe in god at all? Religion is an incredibly important part of scouting, regardless of how religious an individual troop may have been. It's part of the Scout Law, and the code all scouts are expected to live by.

Keep in mind that even after I've said all this, I'm not against gay males in scouting. I have several friends who are homosexual and were some of the best scouts I have ever met. I'm just trying to point out that the people who do oppose are not doing it so much as a "we hate the gays, we need to keep them out," hate crime, so much as "homosexuality directly contradicts with some of the messages scouting teaches about religion. We will not allow it as it is against our values." People really need to keep that in mind. This has less to deal with homosexuality, and more of people believing that the BSA should stick to its values no matter how much pressure society puts on them. It's the same reason why you catch flak for being an atheist in scouting, because you're actively going against the program's message.

Also: Mormons are a bit infamous for being... strict, when it comes to religion and scouting. I've met many people who were chased off from scouting for good because of an overbearing Mormon troop. Best luck I've seen with troops seems to be with ones that are sponsored by protestant churches like Baptists or Methodists, as they seem to be a bit more relaxed.

**hotsauceman1**

MEh OT. I am interested on how they will take this, especially my old troop.
Quite Frankly, I never understood the importance put on scouts.
IMO they teach things that are no longer needed, Why do i need to learn basket weaving and wood carving?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrMoustaffa wrote:
This has less to deal with homosexuality, and more of people believing that the BSA should stick to its values no matter how much pressure society puts on them. It's the same reason why you catch flak for being an atheist in scouting, because you're actively going against the program's message.

That is th problem, So much emphasis on scouting is pushed, some colleges even considerate it in application, Non-religious ones aswell, that it is wrong to deny it to people. It like when country clubs where forced to allow women. They where so vital to business ventures that it was consdered wrong.

**SlaveToDorkness**

Here we go...

lol

I'm concerned what this means for the future of scouting. Not too concerned since i dropped out after a few months.

**MrMoustaffa**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrMoustaffa wrote:
This has less to deal with homosexuality, and more of people believing that the BSA should stick to its values no matter how much pressure society puts on them. It's the same reason why you catch flak for being an atheist in scouting, because you're actively going against the program's message.

That is th problem, So much emphasis on scouting is pushed, some colleges even considerate it in application, Non-religious ones aswell, that it is wrong to deny it to people. It like when country clubs where forced to allow women. They where so vital to business ventures that it was consdered wrong.

That's because being an Eagle Scout used to mean something. The Eagle Rank takes a lot of serious work to get if you're doing it right, and requires quite a bit of community service, leadership, and showing that you live by the Scout Law (trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. Those all tend to look good on an application

). It was a big deal to get it and seeing that on a person's resume showed that they had leadership experience, were a hard worker, and had a good moral compass.

It's meant to prepare you for life as an adult. To teach you independence, confidence, good morals (both religious and non) manners, and useful skills. Sure, things like basket weaving weren't exactly that useful, but First Aid, Wilderness Survival, Swimming, Hiking, the Citizenship badges, Personal Fitness, Family Life, Emergency Preparedness, Pioneering, and other merit badges taught you extremely useful skills, or at the very least taught you to be more self reliant. Heck, I still use knots I learned from the Pioneering merit badge every day as a stagehand.

Merit badges should never be the be all end all of the program. They're simply a tool that's supposed to be used to teach you helpful skills that you can use for the rest of your life.

Sorry for OT

**hotsauceman1**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrMoustaffa wrote:
This has less to deal with homosexuality, and more of people believing that the BSA should stick to its values no matter how much pressure society puts on them. It's the same reason why you catch flak for being an atheist in scouting, because you're actively going against the program's message.

That is th problem, So much emphasis on scouting is pushed, some colleges even considerate it in application, Non-religious ones aswell, that it is wrong to deny it to people. It like when country clubs where forced to allow women. They where so vital to business ventures that it was consdered wrong.

That's because being an Eagle Scout used to mean something. The Eagle Rank takes a lot of serious work to get if you're doing it right, and requires quite a bit of community service, leadership, and showing that you live by the Scout Law (trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. Those all tend to look good on an application ). It was a big deal to get it and seeing that on a person's resume showed that they had leadership experience, were a hard worker, and had a good moral compass.

It's meant to prepare you for life as an adult. To teach you independence, confidence, good morals (both religious and non) manners, and useful skills. Sure, things like basket weaving weren't exactly that useful, but First Aid, Wilderness Survival, Swimming, Hiking, the Citizenship badges, Personal Fitness, Family Life, Emergency Preparedness, Pioneering, and other merit badges taught you extremely useful skills, or at the very least taught you to be more self reliant. Heck, I still use knots I learned from the Pioneering merit badge every day as a stagehand.

Merit badges should never be the be all end all of the program. They're simply a tool that's supposed to be used to teach you helpful skills that you can use for the rest of your life.

Sorry for OT

If it is a resume booster, then why should it be denied to people because of how they believe? They cant ask you for your religion on your resume. And i got more prepared for being an adult from HS then i did scouts. You want to know what someone did for their eagle rank? Built a Bench, that is all, they got their rank.

**JWhex**

This is a good move for the BSA. It may mean some short term pain, but in the long run they needed to adapt or they would die off. The longer they put this issue off the more damage will be done in regard to leaders as well.

Some of these new Gay scouts will be some of the future leaders. They might as well deal with that sooner than later as well.

There are plenty of Christian churches that accept homosexuals in their church, so the whole Christian religion excuse really doesnt hold up any more. As far as the Latter Day Saints go, feth them, they wouldnt even allow black people in their church until what, the 70s? (Dont remember exact date but they discriminated against blacks well into modern times).

As far as the value of your Eagle badge, it was NEVER worth more than the individual effort you put into it anyway. Your badge is likewise not diminished if someone put less work into theirs. Thats the reality of the situation.

**sebster**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
In the eyes of people who opposed lifting the ban, allowing homosexuals or atheists into the scouting program erodes the mission of what scouting tries to accomplish, and to be brutally honest, they're right (partly). How are you reverent when you ignore a clear rule of your god (homosexuality is a sin)? How can you be reverent if you don't believe in god at all? Religion is an incredibly important part of scouting, regardless of how religious an individual troop may have been. It's part of the Scout Law, and the code all scouts are expected to live by.

I get the argument.

Ultimately the only real, satisfactory conclusion to the whole mess will come when Christians opposition to homosexuality disappears.