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So i really like the models of the krootox, and most of the kroot in general, so i was wondering what kind of roles they can fulfill? Is a blob of say 20 kroot and 3 krootox worth taking, and if so would they be parked on your home objective, or do they push ahead using infiltrate etc to capture the opponents objectives?

Overall i guess i am wondering whether i should be using a kroot blob to hold and 2 6 man fire warrior squads in fishes maybe to capture other objectives, or should i use the blob to capture and have 2 squads of 12 to form a gunline on my side of the board? This is aiming at around a 1850 list, just for some background info, cheers dakka

Krootox are garbage. They're incredibly inefficient, and you're better off taking crisis suits with 2x missile pods instead.

As for Kroot themselves, they're only useful if you don't have your allies slot free for boyz or platoons, which are far superior as meatshields and objective holders.

I wouldn't say the Krootox is garbage, take a couple in an outflanking unit with at least one hound for accute senses and you have a decent unit that can get rear armor on some tanks and possibly land on an outfield objective.

I use 10 Kroot + 3-6 hounds + 3 Krootox.

I outflank them almost exclusively. However...

Against certain deathstars and/or units that absolutely MUST die, if I go SECOND, I have been known to infiltrate against such units. Reason? Beasts. Hounds are beasts. Look those rules up! Gives me about a 19" threat radius (and then there is the 3" pile in and 2" engaged distance so really...a very large number of the kroot shoul arrive) and that is as close to an assured second player turn turn charge as you'll find. Adding to this is the fact that two such units (which is what I use) ensure that Overwatch can only stop one of them from making it, if that. So the overwhelming numbers make up for the otherwise lackluster combat ability.

One other point: Krootox have killed more flyers for me than any other unit and in fact, more vehicles period. They are good.

Sniper rounds are good for killing monstrous creatures.

A naked unit of 20 Kroot backed with 2 markerlight tokens and an ethereal have what is probably the most cost effective shooting in the game at rapid fire range. Such a unit will kill more than 8 MEQ on average in a single round of shooting.

The only thing that hounds give the unit from being beasts is move through cover, which they already had. They can also move 12" which only works if you conga line the hounds to maintain unit coherency.

Yes...It does work if you conga line the hounds. That is the point being made. It DOES work. And its awesome to do it.

That seems kinda silly just to attempt a 2nd round charge with a subpar combat unit. Basically the kroot will always be about 6" away from the lead hounds, which will probably put kroot or hounds out of cover and susceptible to focus fire from basic weaponry. If the conga line is leading into the charge, or in other words if your hounds are the only thing within charge range or else why bring hounds at all, then every wound lost from overwatch affects the success of a charge even more.

I have a feeling you're going to end up giving one example of how it worked one time against a guard unit (the only unit the Kroot are good against in combat and doesn't have a deathstar unit) and assume that covers all the bases.

Yeah, I'd say hoping for conga - line stretch charges with the Kroothounds is mostly wishful thinking.

And if it does work, just because the Kroot are the best close combat unit in the codex doesn't actually make them a good close combat unit.

That seems kinda silly just to attempt a 2nd round charge with a subpar combat unit.

Especially when that unit is markedly better at shooting. I think I'd rather have 4 Kroot than a Krootox in just about every case. They're there for bodies and massed small arms fire, not for light vehicle punching. Tau have PLENTY of things to do that with already.

Hounds also grant acute senses, don't they?

Re-rolls for Outflank is always nice.

 chrisrawr wrote:
Hounds also grant acute senses, don't they?

Re-rolls for Outflank is always nice.

They do. Also hounds give I5 for fallback moves.

And I assume SavageConvoy that you will ignore the record I have racked up using these tactics. This isn't theory. It works. It happens and a discerning general obviously doesn't try it if it isn't going to work in a particular situation. Situation is king. You like to IGNORE utterly the actual successes so you can cling to theory. WHY?

There literally IS no reason not to deploy infiltrators after the enemy is done deploying, so I am ALWAYS going to know when it makes sense to do this. If I do NOT equip my army I will NEVER have the chance but if I do equip it, I do. So I equip it to be able to do this.

And the opponent IS indeed sorry when it happens. And the opponent is INDEED not in better shape if i CHOOSE not to.

So poo pooing these ideas seems a lot sillier than internalizing their potential and making good use of it. Just saying.

Actually you bragging about your win loss record was my third guess for your possible answers.

You just gave such a huge cop out answer. Other people than me pointed out that the tactic is extremely silly and not very effective use for the unit and doubtful if it even works.

Then you respond and say it works because you say it works. Trust you, because you have a good win loss record. Even though I've gone over and over how your personal record doesn't mean anything. We have no way to gauge the games or opponents without knowing any details and you didn't mention how many times you used said tactic.

Here's some advice. Try explaining the tactic. Explain just a bit of detail what units are good to target with this. Explain how the unit manages to actually win in combat against anything when very few units will probably make it into charge range. What deathstar unit could possibly be held up by this? How are you allocating wounds? Anything.

Or would you prefer a Tactics board where everyone just says whatever they want and never have to back it up?

I find kroot nice, My army if it goes first tends to get first blood so it gives my Opponents something squishy to shoot at. For some rason they always go for the squishy

Because squishy is easier. They're playing the odds on the ld check i imagine. I would if I were them

That is why I plan on them to do nothing, They are my sick puppy.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Actually you bragging about your win loss record was my third guess for your possible answers.

You just gave such a huge cop out answer. Other people than me pointed out that the tactic is extremely silly and not very effective use for the unit and doubtful if it even works.

Then you respond and say it works because you say it works. Trust you, because you have a good win loss record. Even though I've gone over and over how your personal record doesn't mean anything. We have no way to gauge the games or opponents without knowing any details and you didn't mention how many times you used said tactic.

Here's some advice. Try explaining the tactic. Explain just a bit of detail what units are good to target with this. Explain how the unit manages to actually win in combat against anything when very few units will probably make it into charge range. What deathstar unit could possibly be held up by this? How are you allocating wounds? Anything.

Or would ou prefer a Tactics board where everyone just says whatever they want and never have to back it up?

Backing it up assumes I feel a need to explain the obvious OR...repeat myself. Neither of which is actually true. What IS there to "back up" and what was SO unclear that you couldn't understand it and need more clarification? I was AGREING with you Savageconvoy!!! You SAID:

"They can also move 12" which {works} if you conga line the hounds to maintain unit coherency. "

I agree.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
That is why I plan on them to do nothing, They are my sick puppy.

Indeed. Every army should have one. Lol.

I suppose there is value in the idea of understanding that you WILLL in fact incur casualties and your best ploy is to control who that is.

I meant it would only work rule wise, as in the kroot themselves are still limited to the normal 6" of movement. Where we disagree was them being an actual threat. Which they aren't in CC and rushing them forward would really only be wasting a unit of Kroot.

 Jancoran wrote:
And I assume SavageConvoy that you will ignore the record I have racked up using these tactics. This isn't theory. It works. It happens and a discerning general obviously doesn't try it if it isn't going to work in a particular situation. Situation is king. You like to IGNORE utterly the actual successes so you can cling to theory. WHY?

There literally IS no reason not to deploy infiltrators after the enemy is done deploying, so I am ALWAYS going to know when it makes sense to do this. If I do NOT equip my army I will NEVER have the chance but if I do equip it, I do. So I equip it to be able to do this.

And the opponent IS indeed sorry when it happens. And the opponent is INDEED not in better shape if i CHOOSE not to.

So poo pooing these ideas seems a lot sillier than internalizing their potential and making good use of it. Just saying.

Experience < statistical likelihood.

I've had a single assault marine weather 150 lasgun shots through atrocious rolling on my opponent's side. Does that mean one assault marine will survive 150 LG shots?

ALSO making CERTAIN WORDS in full capitals DOESN'T MAKE the point behind them ANY MORE reasonable.

The Kroot Hound Improved Outflank is a big upgrade for the Kroot, especially since you only need a single hound to pull it off. If you aren't planning to outflank, those sniper rounds are boss given the rather large numbers of MCs out there and again are a pretty cheap upgrade.

Either way, charging with your Kroot is a desperation move (it kinda was with the old Kroot as well, but now it's much more so). You're better off taking the extra time to shoot and forcing the enemy to charge your Kroot while nearby Tau units provide Supporting Fire.

Back to the Oxes, I am torn. Tau really have a lot of 7 4 shooting already so it doesn't seem like we need more, but at the same time the reduced amounts of the really high end stuff tempts me to spam more 7 4 in the hopes of compensation.

Krootox aren't bad necessarily. Depends on your list really. Most Tau lists use Kroot as a cheap screen is all, so you don't need Krootox. The Kroot Gun is pretty okay though.

Reminds me of this list I've toyed with. Between the Orks and the Kroot I have 30 S7 weapons, potentially 75 S7 shots per turn.

My only problem with Krootox is the real money cost of the model. If they were cheaper they would find their way into more Tau lists.

I think sniper Kroot are fantastic. I run 2 units of 16 with 1 hound. Outflank, Infiltrate, or Bubble Wrap as needed.

Backing it up assumes I feel a need to explain the obvious

Sorry, but many of your points or assertions do not have obvious reasoning behind them. Maybe that's just evidence for how stupid I am, but it really would be nice to have a bit more explanation as for why the tactics you use work for you. For instance, none of the following make a lot of sense to me:

Against certain deathstars and/or units that absolutely MUST die, if I go SECOND, I have been known to infiltrate against such units. Reason? Beasts. Hounds are beasts. Look those rules up! Gives me about a 19" threat radius (and then there is the 3" pile in and 2" engaged distance so really...a very large number of the kroot shoul arrive) and that is as close to an assured second player turn turn charge as you'll find.

I can't think of a deathstar I'd charge with Kroot. As I think I pointed out in another thread, even the fairly combat-wimpy Farsight bomb is going to pump and dump Kroot pretty effectively. Just about every other 'star is going to hit you first and waste a whole buttload of your models before you even get to strike with what amount to AP 5 Guardsmen. How are you flipping things to your advantage? What am I missing?

There literally IS no reason not to deploy infiltrators after the enemy is done deploying, so I am ALWAYS going to know when it makes sense to do this. If I do NOT equip my army I will NEVER have the chance but if I do equip it, I do. So I equip it to be able to do this.

And the opponent IS indeed sorry when it happens. And the opponent is INDEED not in better shape if i CHOOSE not to.

I don't really even know what all this means. Can you give examples of how you infiltrate and what situations you would choose to outflank instead? What sorts of target priority do you employ with your Kroot? You've mentioned shooting down flyers and such with Krootoxes, so when do you choose to use them as anti-vehicle, and when do you prefer to make use of the Kroot and get some fire volume going?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Experience < statistical likelihood.

I've had a single assault marine weather 150 lasgun shots through atrocious rolling on my opponent's side. Does that mean one assault marine will survive 150 LG shots?

ALSO making CERTAIN WORDS in full capitals DOESN'T MAKE the point behind them ANY MORE reasonable.

Irrelevant in this case. There are no statistics necessary for understanding how this works. It always works. I can always do it. So maybe you can be more clear.

Now if you want to postulate that the kroot hounds leading the charge like this wont have an affect on,say, the new Eldar, explain why. Theres no magical ball they have that will stop it. Winning such a combat seems...pretty plausible.

Obviously we are doing this to units that are susceptible to it while NOT doing itto units that AREN'T susceptible to it. So what is your point? That it wont work against units i'd never try it on anyways? Lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jefffar wrote:
The Kroot Hound Improved Outflank is a big upgrade for the Kroot, especially since you only need a single hound to pull it off. If you aren't planning to outflank, those sniper rounds are boss given the rather large numbers of MCs out there and again are a pretty cheap upgrade.

Either way, charging with your Kroot is a desperation move (it kinda was with the old Kroot as well, but now it's much more so). You're better off taking the extra time to shoot and forcing the enemy to charge your Kroot while nearby Tau units provide Supporting Fire.

Back to the Oxes, I am torn. Tau really have a lot of 7 4 shooting already so it doesn't seem like we need more, but at the same time the reduced amounts of the really high end stuff tempts me to spam more 7 4 in the hopes of compensation.

Krootox and kroot are my number one vehicle killers. My list has no Broadsides. So the usefulness of Krootox is pretty much related to how much OTHER STR 7 you have. there are only so many points in an army so the answer is usually "it depends".

Objectively, Markerlights give me all the help i need if I want to use Krootox on an enemyes rear armor. Surprise! Krootox have been good to me.

cowmonaut wrote:
The Kroot Gun is pretty okay though.

No, they're garbage. Compare them to a crisis suit with 2x missile pods:

Crisis suit: 52 points.
Krootox x2: 50 points.

Crisis suit: 4x STR 7 AP 4 shots at 36".
Krootox x2: 2x STR 7 AP 4 shots at 24-48", 4x STR 7 AP 4 shots at 0-24".

Crisis suit: T4/3+/W2
Krootox x2: T3/no save/W4

Crisis suit: can JSJ and deep strike.
Krootox x2: can only outflank.

Crisis suit: is its own squad with pure "autocannon" fire.
Krootox x2: is tied to a squad of infantry that waste 60+ points every time you shoot at a vehicle.

So the Krootox brings equal or less firepower per point (depending on the range), has much worse mobility with no JSJ or deep strike, has much less durability, and can only be taken as part of a squad armed with completely different weapons. I can't think of a single situation where I'd rather throw away points on Krootox instead of bringing more crisis suits.

 Peregrine wrote:

Crisis suit: T4/4+/W2
Krootox x2: T3/no save/W4

I'm not quite sure how you got these numbers.

Crisis suits have T4 and a 3+ save. They have 2 wounds.

What do you mean by 4+?

Krootox has T3 and a 6+ save, with 2 wounds each.

What do you mean by no save?

now I will be the first to admit a 6+ save is pretty much ignorable. But the fact is, a 6+ save is still better than no save, if only in combat.

also helps a little against lasguns...

Comparing krootox and crisis suits is rather silly (to me anyways) for a few reasons;
1) Crisis suits are elites, krootox are part of a troops choice.
2) They're really not intended for the same kind of usage. A crisis suit with missiles will often be used to kill light vehicles, whereas the unit a krootox is in (and is therefore targeting) is likely enemy infantry.

But back on topic, a blob of sniper kroot is absolutely fantastic for killing monstrous creatures. I've had a great deal of success against a friends MC heavy daemons list with them, whether holding the backfield objective against a deepstriker or outflanking to push for a midfield/enemy objective.


Edit for spelling

 Jancoran wrote:
Irrelevant in this case. There are no statistics necessary for understanding how this works. It always works. I can always do it. So maybe you can be more clear.

Now if you want to postulate that the kroot hounds leading the charge like this wont have an affect on,say, the new Eldar, explain why. Theres no magical ball they have that will stop it. Winning such a combat seems...pretty plausible.

Obviously we are doing this to units that are susceptible to it while NOT doing itto units that AREN'T susceptible to it. So what is your point? That it wont work against units i'd never try it on anyways? Lol.

What units are susceptible? IG, Eldar, and undefended Cultists? None of which are really deathstar units like you mentioned earlier. But if you have to find a susceptible unit then why did you say "It always works. I can always do it"?

Why bother looking at how Eldar would handle the hounds? Most units will generally be able to handle T3 no save units just fine in overwatch and in combat. Hounds go first and get 18 attacks assumming 6 hounds and none died in round 1 or overwatch despite the conga line across terrain. WS4 vs. Avg WS4 gets 9 hits. S3 vs. Avg T4 gets 3 wounds. 3 wounds gets 1 unsaved vs. 3+ armor. That's not a lot of damage. Now lets say they hit a ten man unit, and 9 get to hit back. 10 swings with a sarge, 5 hits, 3.33 wounds with no save. Kroot then hit for 20 swings, 10 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 unsaved.

So what armies have deathstars and would fall so easily to 3-6 hounds? You keep saying it's obvious, but three posters have asked this and you keep dodging the question. When do you decide to take a unit that's geared towards shooting and give up shooting for one round to try and charge instead? What units do you charge?