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Peregrine wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
The Kroot Gun is pretty okay though.

No, they're garbage. Compare them to a crisis suit with 2x missile pods:

Spoiler:

Crisis suit: 52 points.
Krootox x2: 50 points.

Crisis suit: 4x STR 7 AP 4 shots at 36".
Krootox x2: 2x STR 7 AP 4 shots at 24-48", 4x STR 7 AP 4 shots at 0-24".

Crisis suit: T4/4+/W2
Krootox x2: T3/no save/W4

Crisis suit: can JSJ and deep strike.
Krootox x2: can only outflank.

Crisis suit: is its own squad with pure "autocannon" fire.
Krootox x2: is tied to a squad of infantry that waste 60+ points every time you shoot at a vehicle.

So the Krootox brings equal or less firepower per point (depending on the range), has much worse mobility with no JSJ or deep strike, has much less durability, and can only be taken as part of a squad armed with completely different weapons. I can't think of a single situation where I'd rather throw away points on Krootox instead of bringing more crisis suits.

TrickyTaquito wrote:Comparing krootox and crisis suits is rather silly (to me anyways) for a few reasons;
1) Crisis suits are elites, krootox are part of a troops choice.
2) They're really not intended for the same kind of usage. A crisis suit with missiles will often be used to kill light vehicles, whereas the unit a krootox is in (and is therefore targeting) is likely enemy infantry.

Expanding on what TrickyTaquito said Peregrine, you are complaining that an elite choice on its own puts out comparable firepower for a comparable price as an upgrade option in a scoring Troop choice and that makes the option a "bad choice". An option which gives the unit it is part of the flexibility to hit vehicles (including Flyers) and actually cause damage when it otherwise is unable to. The two units have different duties to preform in a list, so comparing them the way you are doesn't make that much sense.

Also, I never said the Kroot Gun was amazing, I said it was "pretty okay". Which it is. Its not bad. Its not good either. It's just "okay".

 Savageconvoy wrote:

What units are susceptible? IG, Eldar, and undefended Cultists? None of which are really deathstar units like you mentioned earlier. But if you have to find a susceptible unit then why did you say "It always works. I can always do it"?

Why bother looking at how Eldar would handle the hounds? Most units will generally be able to handle T3 no save units just fine in overwatch and in combat. Hounds go first and get 18 attacks assumming 6 hounds and none died in round 1 or overwatch despite the conga line across terrain. WS4 vs. Avg WS4 gets 9 hits. S3 vs. Avg T4 gets 3 wounds. 3 wounds gets 1 unsaved vs. 3+ armor. That's not a lot of damage. Now lets say they hit a ten man unit, and 9 get to hit back. 10 swings with a sarge, 5 hits, 3.33 wounds with no save. Kroot then hit for 20 swings, 10 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.11 unsaved.

So what armies have deathstars and would fall so easily to 3-6 hounds? You keep saying it's obvious, but three posters have asked this and you keep dodging the question. When do you decide to take a unit that's geared towards shooting and give up shooting for one round to try and charge instead? What units do you charge?

In your rush to try and debunk things, you are missing the central point. Which is...like most forums sadly. It doesn't MATTER what i am charging, nor what I'm NOT charging. The TACTIC is sound, the ability to UTILIZE it is valuable and THAT is the point in a nutshell.

This is like a hundred other conversations on forums where somepeople can't seem to JUST follow the bouncing ball. They want to create four more balls and chase after every one BUT the one that matters.

So if you wantto build your list in such a way that it is INcapable of doing what I have suggested...do it. I've explained the value of giving yourself this option and you are sayingto me that YOU will not give yourself this option for the measley price it costs you. Fine. Do that. or don't.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
What do you mean by 4+?

That would be a typo. Obviously crisis suits have a 3+ save.

Krootox has T3 and a 6+ save, with 2 wounds each.

A 6+ save is ignored by pretty much everything (and barely gives you any protection in the rare event that you get to use it), so it might as well not exist. 99% of the time if a Kroot unit takes wounds without a cover save they're removing that many models.

And yes, they have two wounds each, for a total of four wounds if you're talking about an equal-points pair of them compared to the crisis suit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cowmonaut wrote:
Expanding on what TrickyTaquito said Peregrine, you are complaining that an elite choice on its own puts out comparable firepower for a comparable price as an upgrade option in a scoring Troop choice and that makes the option a "bad choice". An option which gives the unit it is part of the flexibility to hit vehicles (including Flyers) and actually cause damage when it otherwise is unable to. The two units have different duties to preform in a list, so comparing them the way you are doesn't make that much sense.

The point is that the Krootox doesn't help the unit do its main jobs (score objectives and be a meatshield for more important things). The only reason to buy one is to get the "autocannon" shots, and it's much worse in that role than crisis suits.

Also, Krootox don't help the unit avoid being useless. Those 60+ points in normal Kroot are still worthless against vehicles, so having Krootox shooting at a vehicle is no more efficient than Kroot standing around doing nothing (or shooting at infantry!) while missile pod crisis suits shoot at the vehicle.

Also, I never said the Kroot Gun was amazing, I said it was "pretty okay". Which it is. Its not bad. Its not good either. It's just "okay".

No, it's garbage. It's a complete waste of points compared to the alternatives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
It doesn't MATTER what i am charging, nor what I'm NOT charging. The TACTIC is sound, the ability to UTILIZE it is valuable and THAT is the point in a nutshell.

Oh yes, you continue to pretend that a "tactic" is all that matters and ignore the numbers on whether or not it actually works effectively.

I've never been keen on the concept of krootox either.

One of the things that bothers me the most about tactical squads is the heavy weapons. They always feel like a waste - either I'm shooting it at a target worthwhile and the other dudes with bolters are not being used efficiently, or vice versa. Seldom is there an occasion where after a game, I could say that the unit couldn't have been more useful if its shooting was more focused in terms of target selection.

With this mindset, the Krootox seem exactly like the heavy weapon in a tactical squad - only you have to pay extra points for them.

I do like kroot snipers, however. They have their place, even if it is more limited than firewarriors.

 Jancoran wrote:

In your rush to try and debunk things, you are missing the central point. Which is...like most forums sadly. It doesn't MATTER what i am charging, nor what I'm NOT charging. The TACTIC is sound, the ability to UTILIZE it is valuable and THAT is the point in a nutshell.

This is like a hundred other conversations on forums where somepeople can't seem to JUST follow the bouncing ball. They want to create four more balls and chase after every one BUT the one that matters.

So if you wantto build your list in such a way that it is INcapable of doing what I have suggested...do it. I've explained the value of giving yourself this option and you are sayingto me that YOU will not give yourself this option for the measley price it costs you. Fine. Do that. or don't.

You've explained nothing. You put out that you run a lot of hounds and conga line them to charge deathstars on turn 2. Several people asked you to explain how that works and you keep trying to shrug off the responsibility of defending your claim. If you aren't going to defend a tactic, then don't propose it. You say it will work, but only against units that it will work against but won't explain which units those are. Put what ever words in caps you want, it doesn't make the tactic sound.

Anyways, back to the issue of Krootox.
The Kroot gun does seem rather expensive for a T3 BS3 Rapid fire autocannon. But it is also allowed to outflank and infiltrate with the Kroot now. The fact that we can take missile pods on suits, doesn't really detract from what the Krootox riders offer.

That being said, I do think the prohibitive cost of the model, dollar wise and point wise, they really limit how many you can/should bring. For me, I think that shooting the Kroot at vehicles would be a waste of sniper rounds unless absolutely neccessary. The only benefit I really see is that it's extra S7 shots against MC, which I generally shoot Kroot at because sniper rifles work well against it.
e
I think I somewhat agree with Peregrine, but I still see the validity of running the Krootox. Personally I prefer units that are equipped with the same weapon type and focusing on a specific goal. It's one of the reasons why we see more double fusion and double plasma suits than suits with fusion and plasma. It's easier to split fire and focus on one type of target for each gun. S7 AP4 is a very versatile weapon as well as the sniper rifles Kroot have. My biggest concern is if you're putting a weapon with 48" range in a unit with 24" range snipers then are you going to waste the Kroots shooting to hit a target over 24" away with the Kroot Gun?

 Peregrine wrote:

Also, I never said the Kroot Gun was amazing, I said it was "pretty okay". Which it is. Its not bad. Its not good either. It's just "okay".

No, it's garbage. It's a complete waste of points compared to the alternatives.

I'll agree to disagree with you here. And I won't bother explaining why having the option to shoot at a target the unit normally can't hurt is conceivably a useful ability. In any event, I can think of a few lists (and not the crappy theme one I made/linked to) where it could be useful. Lists where I'm full up on my Crisis suits already.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

You've explained nothing. You put out that you run a lot of hounds and conga line them to charge deathstars on turn 2. Several people asked you to explain how that works and you keep trying to shrug off the responsibility of defending your claim. If you aren't going to defend a tactic, then don't propose it. You say it will work, but only against units that it will work against but won't explain which units those are. Put what ever words in caps you want, it doesn't make the tactic sound.

You're dodging again. What deathstar unit will Kroot be effective against? You're not answering the basic question.

As I've already shown, your first round charge isn't even breaking even with a 10 man bare bone space marine squad (or the standard infantry unit) without even counting overwatch, which should be taking them down another 2 hounds before combat even begins. The units are even of comparable cost so it's really far from a deathstar unit. And you're expecting a first round charge? You're going second and assuming that your enemy can't move into a strategic position. For that matter what if the enemy unit has defensive grenades or positions such that one model of your Kroot anchor will have to go through difficult terrain? How do you get around the whole issue of losing combat on your turn, leaving your enemies deathstar free to move on unhindered?

I bet next response you'll dodge the issue again and try and argue about how many Kroot hounds you can take per squad or some other issue that wasn't brought up. You're pretending that answering a different question is just as good as answering the one that's been asked.

cowmonaut wrote:
And I won't bother explaining why having the option to shoot at a target the unit normally can't hurt is conceivably a useful ability.

It's not a useful ability because it costs too much. That reasoning is valid when you're talking about, say, paying 10 points for an autocannon in a 100 point melta vet squad to give them some token ranged shooting, but you're talking about adding 75 points of "autocannons" to a 60 point Kroot squad. This is always going to be worse than having the 60 points of Kroot and a separate crisis suit squad delivering the same "autocannon" firepower while the Kroot get to shoot at infantry.

 Jancoran wrote:
You need me to explain how to chain hounds together to pull off a charge?

No, we want you to explain why anyone should care. So far you haven't really done anything to convince anyone that this extended charge range is any more relevant than a hypothetical way of giving extra charge range to pulse rifle Fire Warriors.

Who it works against is obvious: ones i can win the fight against of course. Anything thats too tough, you just dont.

And the point here is that all of the things you can successfully charge with Kroot can also be shot to death. Screwing around with assault just for the sake of assaulting is pointless.

Go second.

Oh, I see. So this is a plan that depends on your opponent not backing away a bit and leaving you out of charge range. Or just deploying some screening units to force you away from the things you want to charge.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
You're dodging again. What deathstar unit will Kroot be effective against? You're not answering the basic question.

SC, maybe it was a mistake to say deathstar, but I can think of a number of armies the tactic he describes could be useful against. Eldar, DEldar, Necrons, CSM (cultists), Tacticals, most GK units besides Purifiers...etc

It's not a huge investment over the normal blob (a handful of hounds are cheap), and if nothing else they give you cheap ablative wounds.

I'm not saying the tactic is amazing, but for a minor investment I could see it being an effective way to get a Kroot Blob into their back lines turn one. Some armies can deal with that effectively, but not all armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

It's not a useful ability because it costs too much. That reasoning is valid when you're talking about, say, paying 10 points for an autocannon in a 100 point melta vet squad to give them some token ranged shooting, but you're talking about adding 75 points of "autocannons" to a 60 point Kroot squad. This is always going to be worse than having the 60 points of Kroot and a separate crisis suit squad delivering the same "autocannon" firepower while the Kroot get to shoot at infantry.

On thing you constantly ignore in your comparison Peregrine is the Oxe has many cheap ablative wounds to hide behind, the suits don't. They generally have a few, but not nearly as many as the Oxen (potentially 30+their own wounds). That's a fair important stat.

They also have superior range, and are just as deadly in the 24" band.

Another thing, sniper rounds aren't "waisted" shooting a vehicle. Although the damage is modest, it can easily tip the scales from a living vehicle to a dead one (on top of the AC fire).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oh, I see. So this is a plan that depends on your opponent not backing away a bit and leaving you out of charge range. Or just deploying some screening units to force you away from the things you want to charge.

True, but there are opportunity costs to doing this. If the unit was on an objective, or in good position to shoot something, or has heavy or salve weapons , being forced to move is less then ideal. Traditional screening units are taken less and less now days, but fair point there.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
On thing you constantly ignore in your comparison Peregrine is the Oxe has many cheap ablative wounds to hide behind, the suits don't. They generally have a few, but not nearly as many as the Oxen (potentially 30+their own wounds). That's a fair important stat.

But they also pay for those extra wounds. You're paying 60+ points to protect a 75 point unit, you'd probably be better off if you could just take a unit of pure Krootox.

They also have superior range, and are just as deadly in the 24" band.

Superior range is completely negated by their terrible firepower at long range. I'd much rather have two shots at 36" than one at 48". Meanwhile their 24" performance is only equal on paper, the JSJ ability of crisis suits gives them a huge advantage in real games.

Another thing, sniper rounds aren't "waisted" shooting a vehicle.

Yes they are. A unit of 10 sniper Kroot will average less than one glance/pen per turn against AV 10, for 60 points. That's laughable damage, you're better off shooting the basic guns at it. And that's assuming you keep them stationary, which is a pretty big disadvantage compared to JSJ crisis suits.

True, but there are opportunity costs to doing this. If the unit was on an objective, or in good position to shoot something, or has heavy or salve weapons , being forced to move is less then ideal. Traditional screening units are taken less and less now days, but fair point there.

But the only units that will be backing away will be ones the Kroot can kill, so it's better to back off and stay alive than to stand your ground and die. So the only things that Kroot can catch with this strategy are the ones that aren't afraid of Kroot.

 Peregrine wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
And I won't bother explaining why having the option to shoot at a target the unit normally can't hurt is conceivably a useful ability.

It's not a useful ability because it costs too much. That reasoning is valid when you're talking about, say, paying 10 points for an autocannon in a 100 point melta vet squad to give them some token ranged shooting, but you're talking about adding 75 points of "autocannons" to a 60 point Kroot squad. This is always going to be worse than having the 60 points of Kroot and a separate crisis suit squad delivering the same "autocannon" firepower while the Kroot get to shoot at infantry.

And I'd argue that your IG example is a bad example. It's more like adding a Heavy Weapon to a Platoon. Also, you keep insisting that any list where you might try to take the upgrade has the FOC slots open for more Crisis Suits.

But I'll grant you that 75 Points is too much for 3 Kroot Guns and is the main reason you won't see almost any lists with them. Being stuck paying for a 2 wound S6 model to carry the gun is more than a little lame. Part of the problem may be because I typically play Space Wolves or other Imperial armies and not Xenos. I see 145 points for a unit as relatively cheap, and the fact that it has 10 Snipers and 3 Autocannons in a 16 wound unit that is likely to have a 3+ Cover Save and can Infiltrate makes it a bargain. If I could take 3 Autocannons in a Scout Squad I'd love to.

cowmonaut wrote:
Also, you keep insisting that any list where you might try to take the upgrade has the FOC slots open for more Crisis Suits.

Given the ability to take HQ crisis suits (including the Farsight bomb, with more crisis suits than you could ever need) in addition to elite crisis suits, and Broadsides to fill a similar STR 7 spam role, I have a hard time imagining a list that just can't get enough missile pods in the FOC.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

SC, maybe it was a mistake to say deathstar, but I can think of a number of armies the tactic he describes could be useful against.

He had several opportunities to correct the mistake and has not yet. I'm assuming he means deathstar because he has never denied that claim. The hounds would be extra wounds if they weren't just 2 points less than kroot without guns and sniper rounds. Really there's no reason to spend points on hounds when you could just bring more kroot and a single hound for the acute senses. I haven't had experience with either DE or Eldar really, but the other examples for units that are a bit off. Any MEQ will really just tear through the Kroot, basically having no armor means they'll lose combat and test at very low leadership. Things like IG and cultist are better targets, but that's a minority situation and even then lasguns and autoguns will be wounding on a 4+ and the hounds don't get an armor save.

Anyways, I apologize for dragging on the argument longer than it needed to.

But they also pay for those extra wounds. You're paying 60+ points to protect a 75 point unit, you'd probably be better off if you could just take a unit of pure Krootox.

I don't think you understand how ablative wounds work. The first X bullets going into the squad kill 5 or 6 or 7 point models, instead of 25 point models. With Crisis suits, the first two or four bullets kill 12 point models, and the remain bullets kill 40 point models. Crisis suits are a much better target then Oxen, meaning the Oxen will almost always last longer and shoot more. And they score too. Even if all the rest of the Kroot are dead, you have some reasonably resilient scoring models, something the Crisis will never do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Any MEQ will really just tear through the Kroot, basically having no armor means they'll lose combat and test at very low leadership.

Maybe a small unit with just 10 Kroot and a few hounds, which is what you did your illustration for. But a full blob? Like 20 Kroot, 3 Oxen, 10 Hounds? I know that will generally be more points then 10 Tacticals, but there's nothing in the rules that says you have to play fair. Most people don't try to kill a unit with shooting only the target units point cost at it, if you know what I mean .

Also, a kroot blob seems like it would be a pretty good counter to an IG blob in CC, though I haven't sat down and run the numbers.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
You're dodging again. What deathstar unit will Kroot be effective against? You're not answering the basic question.

As I've already shown, your first round charge isn't even breaking even with a 10 man bare bone space marine squad (or the standard infantry unit) without even counting overwatch, which should be taking them down another 2 hounds before combat even begins. The units are even of comparable cost so it's really far from a deathstar unit. And you're expecting a first round charge? You're going second and assuming that your enemy can't move into a strategic position. For that matter what if the enemy unit has defensive grenades or positions such that one model of your Kroot anchor will have to go through difficult terrain? How do you get around the whole issue of losing combat on your turn, leaving your enemies deathstar free to move on unhindered?

I bet next response you'll dodge the issue again and try and argue about how many Kroot hounds you can take per squad or some other issue that wasn't brought up. You're pretending that answering a different question is just as good as answering the one that's been asked.

Why are you harping on deathstars?

Im not dodging your question. I just find it absurd. Im not going to be baited into answering a question that is irrelevant. If you wanna attack a DEATHSTAR with it, better make sure its one you CAN take. otherwise, DONT DO THAT. I think the question you REALLY should ask is: "Given X deathstar, would you try it". So if you want to be more specific as to what combination of horrors you are thinking of, I'll tell you if I'd try it. But you dont REALLY need me to tell you that, do you?

I took out a Farsun with this tactic (see OTHER thread for this) and Broadside teams, LongFangs and so on. Perimeter threats make the best targets.

 Jancoran wrote:
Why are you harping on deathstars?

Because you're saying it's a viable threat against death stars, while refusing to name a specific death star that it can plausibly kill. Meanwhile the numbers say that even basic tactical squads are more than the Kroot can handle.

 Jancoran wrote:
I use 10 Kroot + 3-6 hounds + 3 Krootox.

I outflank them almost exclusively. However...

Against certain deathstars and/or units that absolutely MUST die, if I go SECOND, I have been known to infiltrate against such units. Reason? Beasts. Hounds are beasts. Look those rules up! Gives me about a 19" threat radius (and then there is the 3" pile in and 2" engaged distance so really...a very large number of the kroot shoul arrive) and that is as close to an assured second player turn turn charge as you'll find. Adding to this is the fact that two such units (which is what I use) ensure that Overwatch can only stop one of them from making it, if that. So the overwhelming numbers make up for the otherwise lackluster combat ability.

One other point: Krootox have killed more flyers for me than any other unit and in fact, more vehicles period. They are good.

That's why they are harping on about deathstars, you made a claim that this unit of kroot can deal with (certain) deathstars and not only have you not backed it up, you haven't even said which units these deathstars are.

Because you're saying it's a viable threat against death stars, while refusing to name a specific death star that it can plausibly kill. Meanwhile the numbers say that even basic tactical squads are more than the Kroot can handle.

That's not entirely true. The numbers shown by SC show that 110 points of Kroot can't take 150+ points of Tacticals.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I use 10 Kroot + 3-6 hounds + 3 Krootox.

I outflank them almost exclusively. However...

Against certain deathstars and/or units that absolutely MUST die, if I go SECOND, I have been known to infiltrate against such units. Reason? Beasts. Hounds are beasts. Look those rules up! Gives me about a 19" threat radius (and then there is the 3" pile in and 2" engaged distance so really...a very large number of the kroot shoul arrive) and that is as close to an assured second player turn turn charge as you'll find. Adding to this is the fact that two such units (which is what I use) ensure that Overwatch can only stop one of them from making it, if that. So the overwhelming numbers make up for the otherwise lackluster combat ability.

One other point: Krootox have killed more flyers for me than any other unit and in fact, more vehicles period. They are good.

That's why they are harping on about deathstars, you made a claim that this unit of kroot can deal with (certain) deathstars and not only have you not backed it up, you haven't even said which units these deathstars are.

Its not a court room. We're not on trial. And I Just did mention and have EXTENSIVELY mentioned it TO HIM on other threads the answer. he's just trying to bait me and bring THAT little tiff over here. Its juvenile. Don't let him do it. he knows exactly the answers to the questions he "insists"| haven't answered. He's just playing games. He knows ive used this exact tactic and seen it done, to get at a Farsun.

But who cares? It can be used on non-deathstars too. This thread is about kroot. I have told you now that there is a demonstrable benefit to adding more kroot Hounds to the unit, strongly recommended Krootox be in the unit; and if you decide to give yourself this option in a game...You can. You can ignore the advice too.

And if you do, its fine. No one here can tell you how to play your game. Lists come in a lot of varieties and there may just not be points for it in your list. But if you already know you want to rely on Kroot to any extent... Well anyways, its your call man.

 Jancoran wrote:
Its not a court room. We're not on trial. And I Just did mention and have EXTENSIVELY mentioned it TO HIM on other threads the answer. he's just trying to bait me and bring THAT little tiff over here. Its juvenile. Don't let him do it. he knows exactly the answers to the questions he "insists"| haven't answered. He's just playing games. He knows ive used this exact tactic and seen it done, to get at a Farsun.

You know what's funny? You claim this is about you being "baited" into something, but you've spent more time writing posts about how you're not going to answer than it would take to give an answer. Maybe instead, for the benefit of those of us who don't pay attention to every argument you have, you could answer the question?

Or you could just admit that your "tactic" doesn't really exist.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I use 10 Kroot + 3-6 hounds + 3 Krootox.

I outflank them almost exclusively. However...

Against certain deathstars and/or units that absolutely MUST die, if I go SECOND, I have been known to infiltrate against such units. Reason? Beasts. Hounds are beasts. Look those rules up! Gives me about a 19" threat radius (and then there is the 3" pile in and 2" engaged distance so really...a very large number of the kroot shoul arrive) and that is as close to an assured second player turn turn charge as you'll find. Adding to this is the fact that two such units (which is what I use) ensure that Overwatch can only stop one of them from making it, if that. So the overwhelming numbers make up for the otherwise lackluster combat ability.

One other point: Krootox have killed more flyers for me than any other unit and in fact, more vehicles period. They are good.

That's why they are harping on about deathstars, you made a claim that this unit of kroot can deal with (certain) deathstars and not only have you not backed it up, you haven't even said which units these deathstars are.

Its not a court room. We're not on trial. And I Just did mention and have EXTENSIVELY mentioned it TO HIM on other threads the answer. he's just trying to bait me and bring THAT little tiff over here. Its juvenile. Don't let him do it. he knows exactly the answers to the questions he "insists"| haven't answered. He's just playing games. He knows ive used this exact tactic and seen it done, to get at a Farsun.

But who cares? It can be used on non-deathstars too. This thread is about kroot. I have told you now that there is a demonstrable benefit to adding more kroot Hounds to the unit, strongly recommended Krootox be in the unit; and if you decide to give yourself this option in a game...You can. You can ignore the advice too.

And if you do, its fine. No one here can tell you how to play your game. Lists come in a lot of varieties and there may just not be points for it in your list. But if you already know you want to rely on Kroot to any extent... Well anyways, its your call man.

Then please by all means, if you have posted the answer before, could link us to the relevant thread/post, it would be much appreciated.

It's actually 185 points of Kroot because he is charging with a unit that includes three Krootox, which again is an entirely pointless idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Why are you harping on deathstars?

Because you're saying it's a viable threat against death stars, while refusing to name a specific death star that it can plausibly kill. Meanwhile the numbers say that even basic tactical squads are more than the Kroot can handle.

Peregrine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Its not a court room. We're not on trial. And I Just did mention and have EXTENSIVELY mentioned it TO HIM on other threads the answer. he's just trying to bait me and bring THAT little tiff over here. Its juvenile. Don't let him do it. he knows exactly the answers to the questions he "insists"| haven't answered. He's just playing games. He knows ive used this exact tactic and seen it done, to get at a Farsun.

You know what's funny? You claim this is about you being "baited" into something, but you've spent more time writing posts about how you're not going to answer than it would take to give an answer. Maybe instead, for the benefit of those of us who don't pay attention to every argument you have, you could answer the question?

Or you could just admit that your "tactic" doesn't really exist.

I think you're wasting your time, because I believe he ignored you a while ago. Quoting your posts just so it's not a wasted effort.

 Krellnus wrote:


Then please by all means, if you have posted the answer before, could link us to the relevant thread/post, it would be much appreciated.

Reference another argument that looks just like this one does? Lol.

If my information is a phantom, treat it that way. I'm not going to PROVE anything here. You can prove it though just by attempting it. Decide you will, or decide you won't. I think I can live with either eventuality, right?

 Jancoran wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:


Then please by all means, if you have posted the answer before, could link us to the relevant thread/post, it would be much appreciated.

Reference another argument that looks just like this one does? Lol.

If my information is a phantom, treat it that way. I'm not going to PROVE anything here. You can prove it though just by attempting it. Decide you will, or decide you won't. I think I can live with either eventuality, right?

What is the strawman for?
I never claimed your proof/answer didn't exist, I just said (acting on the assumption that it does, since I have no reason not to) I would like to see it, with the intent of then judging the tactica on its own merits/lack thereof, all I am attempting is to do some research, giving you the benefit of the doubt in my attempt to do so. Perhaps that was a mistake on my part?

As to proving it by attempting it, I don't own Krootox or Kroot Hounds, although if this tactic is as good as you claim (which you have as yet, failed to provide evicdence for) I may consider investing some of finances (which as a student are very limited atm) into Krootox and Kroot Hounds, however your solution to my problem is to take a gamble and potentially waste money on models that may never see the light of day if, after all is said and done, this tactic of yours turns out not work (whether overall or just against my area).

I apologise if I came off combatative in my previous posts, that most certainly was not and is not my intent.

You know, it's funny; this Kroot assault unit doesn't seem god-awful for 110 points (ignoring the Krootox and Deathstars and whatever else he was talking about). If nothing else, you can force your opponent to defend heavy weapons he'd otherwise leave unattended. If I have a Predator and now I've got to leave a squad of CSM home to defend it, that 110 point squad has pinned about 200 points. Now, of course, you don't actually engage those CSM with the Kroot since they'll lose; regardless of how they deal with the Kroot, it'll buy you a turn or two. That turns the shooting war into 1400 of Tau points vs (at best) 1300 points for CSM.

Kronor can't hurt tanks in CC. They are only S3 and don't have grenades. Not many people are actually afraid of getting charged by Kroot anyways. It's a unit with pretty scary shooting and you're giving up the actual threat to have teeth and claws bounce off armor. You could just spend the points on more shooting.

Really? They were S4 in the last edition. What did they get to make up for that?

... Nothing. Lost 1S andtwo close combat weapons. They have Ap5 so they aren't demolished by guard.

 DarkHound wrote:
Really? They were S4 in the last edition. What did they get to make up for that?

The ability to buy sniper ammunition.