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I've always written my lists at home. That way I know exactly what to bring with me. Maybe it's a little bit anal of me, but if it's not painted and WYSIWYG, I don't put it on the table. This, combined with the fact that I don't like making people wait after I accept a game (I really love when people ask me to play a game, then waste 30 minutes of my time writing a list that they should have prepared while they were waiting for someone to walk in...).

Lately I've noticed a phenomenon whereby people, upon accepting or making an offer to play a game, will ask me, "What army do you run?", then run off to make a list tailored to what I run. Maybe I'm just oldschool, but I consider this bad form unless both players are running tailored lists. That said...see poll.

I'm not sure that any of those options fit... I write my lists at home, and expect opponents to do the same. Not because of list tailoring though... I just don't want to have to wait around for half an hour while they write a list on the fly.

If you're taking an army to a gaming venue, there is absolutely no reason you can't have lists pre-generated for whatever points values are commonly played in your area.

I'll throw my $0.02 in, since I may have contributed to the generation of this topic.

Personally, my ideal world would be for both players to show up with more models than they need, then both write their lists after knowing what army the opponent is playing. Then again I'm also fine with proxies/counts as/not painted, considering I don't have enough models to fill out a proper 1500 pt force without using some proxies it would be pretty hypocritical of me not to. (although that should change after my huge shipment of boxes gets ordered in. It's good to finally be making a real paycheck).

I just think it's dumb to play a casual game with upgrades/weapon choices that are useless against what I'm fighting. If it's a competitive/tournament game then you need to design an all-comers list, but for a friendly game I'd like to see both armies at their best against each other.

That said, I do draw a distinction between "army list tailored against a specific army" and "tailored list against what I know my opponent will be putting on the table." Knowing what army someone is using isn't the same as knowing what list they're using. Tailoring against a specific list is kind of rude if you ask me, unless you're helping them practice for a tournament where they need to play against a list that might counter theirs or something.

 dementedwombat wrote:
I'll throw my $0.02 in, since I may have contributed to the generation of this topic.

Personally, my ideal world would be for both players to show up with more models than they need, then both write their lists after knowing what army the opponent is playing. Then again I'm also fine with proxies/counts as/not painted, considering I don't have enough models to fill out a proper 1500 pt force without using some proxies it would be pretty hypocritical of me not to. (although that should change after my huge shipment of boxes gets ordered in. It's good to finally be making a real paycheck).

I just think it's dumb to play a casual game with upgrades/weapon choices that are useless against what I'm fighting. If it's a competitive/tournament game then you need to design an all-comers list, but for a friendly game I'd like to see both armies at their best against each other.

That said, I do draw a distinction between "army list tailored against a specific army" and "tailored list against what I know my opponent will be putting on the table." Knowing what army someone is using isn't the same as knowing what list they're using. Tailoring against a specific list is kind of rude if you ask me, unless you're helping them practice for a tournament where they need to play against a list that might counter theirs or something.

Please don't get the impression that your post generated this topic because it pissed me off.

It just reminded me of this phenomenon and my general distaste for it.


Funny you mention that...to some degree I think that lists in an established meta are all tailored to that meta. That's how you end up with a meta game. The difference is that the list is written for the meta, not the opponent.

Is there a "I come with lists ready and then make minor changes to it once I find an opponent" option available?

I'm kinda surprised people don't just write multiple lists at home tailored for different armies. Like have one for taking on Orks, one more effective at taking on MEQs, another for fighting Guard, etc. Then go in to play, see what army the opponent plays, and pull the list out that's more effective against that army. You can't really count on getting every thing about their list covered, but that's probably better than just writing in really quick.

I come with lists made at home, and change on the fly if needed to fit various points requirements (Sometimes someone wants to play a 850 pts list, and I may only have 500, 750, or 1000 prepared).

I'm okay with people making lists outside of home or before battle (assuming it doesn't take forever). The only thing I don't like is people who make lists particularly to counter my own. It takes the fun out of the game that way.

As others have said, though; if it just counters a type of meta (like fliers, for instance) and i happen to bring a flier heavy list, then that's usually okay.

I almost always bring a pre-determined list beforehand, often (usually) playing the same list for weeks/months on end. It really irks me when people ask "what army are you playing, oh ok lemme make some changes". That's annoying as piss.

Usually they end up tailoring for something completely different than what I'm bringing anyway (or tailor very badly), but it's still very annoying, and I don't enjoy those games or people.

I tend to carry several list with me. I'll have list prepared for the popular points brackets in my area: 500, 1000, 1250, 1500, 1850, sometimes 2000 but usually this is a prearranged game.

For each point bracket I have multiple style lists that focus on different things in general: anti horde, anti flyer, anti Meq, anti armor, and general TAC (yes for those of you keeping score I usually go to the shop with about 30 premade lists on me). These lists are prepared in advance, so they are not army specific or list specific. They do however allow me to bring the tools I need to be competitive. For example, I may use my anti horde list against orks, nids, or infantry spam IG, but the list wont be tailored to any of those specific armies or the lists I'm playing.

It makes no sense to run a list with redundancy to take out certain targets (such as anti air) if my opponents are not taking any of that. I am also fine with my opponents doing the same thing.

If I show up to the store and someone wants to have a game with me, I do prefer if they have a list. If they ask me what I'm playing, I have no problem letting them know the army, and then having them make a quick list. But I won't usually show them my list until I see theirs. It does irk me when they know my whole list and bring a list tailored to take each of my units in an obvious way.

TL;DR, I'm fine with a bit of list tailoring for general opponents(ie I'm playing DA, so bring anit MEQ), but not when it's tailored to beat the specific list (ie I'm playing RW, so they bring things to hard counter bikes).

I write my lists at home, and typically will bring a 1000, 1500, 1750 and 1850 list with me. It does annoy me a bit when someone goes off to write their list after accepting a game, and it inevitebly feels tailored which I also don't like. Tbh It's not THAT big a deal, I still enjoy playing the game because I like playing the game, but I'd prefer in general to play against a ready-prepared TAC list.

This somewhat goes hand-in-hand with the 'over the point limit' thread for me, because I actually find writing lists to be a fun element of the game in and of itself. I like the process of choices, sacrifices, changes and the puzzle of fitting it within the point constraint.

We play double blind games and nothing else besides frozen list campaigns at my club. All lists must be made before arrival, and the opponent and game type are only found out after list creation.

I highly recommend this, as it reinforces good list building and severely cuts down on D-baggery.

My friends and I all use fairly-TAC lists, which we may sometimes modify slightly to better counter some things my buddies MAY take. For example, back in 5th, I played 2 games with Epidemius as the star of the show (pure Daemons, none of that DG ally cheese), so game 3 my friend took an extra drop-pod dreadnought and some tactical terminators to DS backfield and mess with that plan. Stuff like that. It's not quite list-tailoring, but it punishes one player for using the same gimmicks over-and-over.

I'm in kinda a unique situation.

I make not only my own list, but also my opponent's list - with her input of course.

I've found that it's incredibly hard to avoid going, "Okay, I've got this to deal with stutf like that, these to deal with those, and now I just need something to deal with that other thing..."

Like, for example, my opponent's list has a lot of Lootas that sit in the backfield. Instead of taking a Battle Conclave for my melee needs, I opted instead for an Assault Squad and Captain with Jump Pack to get to the backfield quickly. I can rationalize it and say it's good against any infantry that sits in the backfield, but that's pure rationalization, not reasoning.

I've toyed around with making like 3-6 different lists for myself and my opponent, that each feature a different signature gimmick or theme, and then rolling a d3 or d6 for each side before the game starts, in order to make it much harder to do that. I might also add stuff that I don't have models for, like Battlewagons, to force myself to take some anti-AV14 weapons like Lascannons, instead of the heaviest things in my list being meltaguns and autocannons. Okay, the Meltaguns would do fine against the armor, but not at any range that I'd want my Troops to be at against Orks.

I just make my list at home and rock up. if I win yay, if I loss so be it. it all comes down to the dice and whether they've brought anything to the table (excuse the pun) that could get them a win. I can understand the annoyance at tailored lists though but I've never come up against one, yet...

I find it hilarious sometimes.

They ask what i'm playing, i say Orks, and they wander off muttering that all their meltas are just fine as Flamers...

Then i ram a meganobz enema home, or a Mekbash orky armour list... If they've tailored for anti-horde they learn a valuable lesson, and if they didn't i get a good game

Orks izzunt just Green tide, yer gitz

You can tailor lists all you want, but no army plays the same way. When I know I'm playing against my friend's Tau do I tailor for a vehicle heavy list? Tons of suits? Tons of firewarriors? If I dedicate myself to defeating one of these it becomes a rock, paper, scissor game especially because I play DA and RW, GW, DW are completely different armies (not even mentioning when you mix them).

Since I prepare for all of the above I just end up making a TAC list that is slightly kit for Tau. Same goes for most opponents I play.

I always write my lists at home and I usually have one for all the most pertinent points levels. I either have them memorized (Since Imperial Guard lists are very simple) or written down and I can produce a written copy of my list on demand. I can also write a list off the top of my head but I feel this inevitably leads to list tailoring. I feel that my opponents should do the same but no one's perfect. Sometimes people aren't all that organized and I'm fine with them producing a list on the fly. If they are tailoring, great, as it gives me an interesting tactical challenge.

I have many many lists. Multiple lists for different points brackets. At least 2 types per points bracket and that is only if my opponents is has a flyer or not.

The number of lists I have is due to me sitting on the bus thinking up different ways and combinations to play all the models I have. Most lists haven't got a run yet, but I really want to try each at least once!

Wow I don't feel so bad for my folder of lists. I also prepare a few lists per point bracket usually along the lines of 500, 750, 1000, 1200, 1500, 1850, 2000. I often make separate my allies lists from my main force list so I can mix and match them. Additionally I have an easy mode set and a competitive mode set which I switch between depending on how good I feel the opponent is.

I always have a list ready to go when I get to the store, and merely alter it if people want something different than the 2k points norm we usually do.

That being said, i give people fair warning when I"m running an Armoured Battlegroup; if they don't bring anti-armour, neither of us is going to have much fun.

I don't care for list tailoring, but I'm alright with people have a general anti-bug, anti-guard, anti-marine list and such, it's when one person in particular demands a piece-by-piece breakdown of your army, so he can make sure his entire army is custom tailored to defeat your list.

Bringing meltas because you know you're fighting lots of tanks; cool, bringing 3 MCs in a 500 point game against a guy using a Blood Angel battleforce on his 3rd game, not so cool.

Most of the local guys have various general lists they use, only the Marine players and the one Daemon TFG do much list tailoring; the marines err towards specialists in my experience, so I don't mind that they tweak their lists around, otherwise they tend to get quite brutally stomped.

At home/no tailoring. And if someone asks for a different point level than I'd planned on I'll just re-write a "standard" list for that point level as well as I can remember it and adjust the points to fit if necessary.

 pwntallica wrote:
It makes no sense to run a list with redundancy to take out certain targets (such as anti air) if my opponents are not taking any of that. I am also fine with my opponents doing the same thing.

But would you be fine with your opponent responding to your decision to remove AA by putting in all of their flyers? Or would you expect to be allowed to counter-tailor (at which point your opponent removes all their flyers)?

 Wilytank wrote:
I'm kinda surprised people don't just write multiple lists at home tailored for different armies. Like have one for taking on Orks, one more effective at taking on MEQs, another for fighting Guard, etc. Then go in to play, see what army the opponent plays, and pull the list out that's more effective against that army. You can't really count on getting every thing about their list covered, but that's probably better than just writing in really quick.

Because list tailoring like that favors the person who is able to buy/build/paint a ton of extra models to field specialized counter-lists for every army and then bring everything to a game, while the person who can only afford a single "standard" list/has to take the bus to the store and can only carry one army/etc is stuck with a huge disadvantage. And even if both players have equal model collections it still favors the person who gets to tailor second. If I say I'm playing IG and you bring your counter-IG list I'm at a disadvantage. On the other hand, if I respond to your choice of an anti-IG list by playing my Tau suddenly you're at a disadvantage. The only way to fix this problem is to have both players choose their lists before they know who they're playing against so nobody gets the second-choice advantage.

At home, no tailoring.

How is this even a question? :/

 Peregrine wrote:

 pwntallica wrote:
It makes no sense to run a list with redundancy to take out certain targets (such as anti air) if my opponents are not taking any of that. I am also fine with my opponents doing the same thing.

But would you be fine with your opponent responding to your decision to remove AA by putting in all of their flyers? Or would you expect to be allowed to counter-tailor (at which point your opponent removes all their flyers)?

This was just an example. As I already stated I would be fine with my opponent doing something similar. But would also want to avoid an endless circle of "you have no fliers, I'll remove my AA", "Oh you have no AA, I'll add in some fliers", "Oh you have fliers now, I'll add in my AA", "Oh you have AA now....".

In these cases it would be something simple. Such as the flack upgrade on a few guys with ML, nothing huge like taking out an ADL and contemptor dread.

And this wouldn't be a choice of, oh I see your list, and it has no fliers. It's a, oh you're playing an army without fliers, I'll use this same list with 40 points of upgrades shifted from flack missiles to melta bombs.

It's no different than my opponent seeing I'm playing a MEQ army, and switching to a premade list with more focus on anti MEQ. I'm saying this is ok with me. Where I draw the line is making your list to beat me after seeing my list. For example, its ok to bring lots of ap 2/3 because you know I am playing DA, its not ok after seeing my list has two LR to change your whole army to have max amount of melta possible.

I'm not sure if I'm communicating this properly. But basically, tailoring to beat a pre made list is not cool in my books. Adjusting your list a bit to have to tools to have a good game based on the army they are bringing is ok... to a point.

This doesn't really come up in our area much, since most people just play TAC lists because we have a decent variety or armies here, and people constantly change their lists. Even still, I have seen it happen, and it is pretty annoying.

I own one list and normaly if someone asks me what I play , I say a death world army. Never realy played against tailored lists , save or that one time when I was visiting my aunt in UK . She drove me to Warhammer world and I was dazzled by the terrain and how many people are there. I found opponents instantly , which again was awesome . Then got owned by a list that spamed heavy bolters and whirlwinds .I was even asked pre game if I had any other models with me . Not something I would expect from people tree times my age .

Recently my group has decided to make 3 lists at a specific point value, then rolling a D3 to decide. Obviously the 3 have to be different in a significant way.

I usually have two or three lists that I write at home, and then once I get asked to play a game, I start switching little things around right before the start as my mood changes or as I want to see things happen.

This usually has nothing to do with tailoring but instead my indecisiveness.

when i go to a games session, i take with me 3 each of armies at 750, 1000, 1500 and 1750 points. i accept the challenge of a PUG, roll a D3 at the agreed upon points limit, and then use that army list for that game. that way, my opponents can never be sure of what they will face (and i'm not sure either). I expect my opponents to do something similar as it speeds up the proceedings.
For pre arranged games, like, me versus nids, or versus orks, i will tailor my army somewhat, with the expectation that they will do the same, but i do it before i even leave my house. i have enough marines and tanks that it is impossible for my enemy to tailor their list specifically to beat mine, especially because i don't know exactly which army i'll be using until literally just before the game!

The options are assuming you are going to play pick-up games at your FLGS or Club, and that's fine.

However, I only play with my group of friends, and that's for campaign games. We generally schedule our games about a week out as we're busy with families and stuff. We all know what army we're facing each time we play, so we can make our lists before the game. Since both sides know the army they're facing (but not what list), that's about as fair as we can make it.

Either side can tailor their list at home, but you show up with one list at the other guy's house, and vice verse.

Make an all-comers at home. If someone wants to play me, I expect them to have a list already done up, or to make one without knowledge of my list. Forces both players to build balanced lists that can take on a variety of threats. Anything else just becomes a game of tailor-counter tailoring.

I write my list at home and don't like it if my opponent tailors I'll still play them but a lot of my fun goes out the window (though I generally have unusual lists). This mainly applies in my area as it's unknown who will fight who and with what before hand so tailoring does cut down play time.