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 DanielBeaver wrote:
I think it would go back down to PS7, since there's no particular permission given to use the upgrade cards from the destroyed ship.

To throw a wrench it it: would the situation be any different if Bosk had received the Injured Pilot crit (which makes you ignore VI) prior to being destroyed and deploying the pup? What about if Bosk had received Damaged Cockpit (which lowers him to PS0)?

Funnily enough I checked into the rules for Destroying a Ship (main rule book page 16) and it specifically calls out that you discard all the damage cards on the destroyed ship and remove the figure from the play area. It says nothing about discarding equipped upgrades or anything like that.

So the Injured Pilot Critical Hit card would be discarded either way.

I would guess you carry nothing across from the YV-666, other than the pilot skill and pilot ability, so Bossk would lose VI when the pup is deployed. I'm basing that entirely off there being no slots for any upgrades on the pup card

 statu wrote:
I would guess you carry nothing across from the YV-666, other than the pilot skill and pilot ability, so Bossk would lose VI when the pup is deployed. I'm basing that entirely off there being no slots for any upgrades on the pup card

This was my thought as well, but the more I read it the more I become convinced it's 9.

The Pup doesn't require any upgrade slots. The card says you have the Pilot Skill of the friendly ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth title card.

That would be the Bossk YV-666 card. What is the pilot skill of that card? 7, or 9? 7 normally, but with VI it goes up to 9. Does the upgrade on the Bossk card still count? I guess is what it comes down to.

Where do you submit questions to FF, anyway?

 streamdragon wrote:

 statu wrote:
I would guess you carry nothing across from the YV-666, other than the pilot skill and pilot ability, so Bossk would lose VI when the pup is deployed. I'm basing that entirely off there being no slots for any upgrades on the pup card

This was my thought as well, but the more I read it the more I become convinced it's 9.

The Pup doesn't require any upgrade slots. The card says you have the Pilot Skill of the friendly ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth title card.

That would be the Bossk YV-666 card. What is the pilot skill of that card? 7, or 9? 7 normally, but with VI it goes up to 9. Does the upgrade on the Bossk card still count? I guess is what it comes down to.

Where do you submit questions to FF, anyway?

You could argue if it is nine, that all EPTs should carry over. Is there any limitations to the hounds tooth title that mean the lower PS YV-666 cards can't take it?

There are no limitations on pilots for the Hound's Tooth title, but Bossk is the only YV pilot with an EPT slot.

As for other EPTs, it's a pretty clear reason why they wouldn't carry over: the Nashtah Pup card doesn't specify they do. The only reason that VI is the issue it is, is because of its effect: raising the PS of the Pilot. The PS of the pilot DOES specifically get called out as carrying over to the Pup.

What is Bossk's PS? 7
What is Bossk's PS with VI? 9

The YV-666 pilot card doesn't lose the VI card when the ship is destroyed; that's pretty clear under the "Destroy a Ship" rules. The only cards removed are the damage cards. So does VI still alter the PS after the YV is removed from play? It's still equipped to the Pilot card, after all.

This does need a FAQ and FFG knows about it since this question has been all over their forums (The best way of asking FFG anything is to be on their forums).

I can see the argument both ways, but like DanielBeaver said, you don't have explicit permission to move the upgrade card. Think of the upgrade card setting the pilots Pilot Skill at the beginning of each Activation and Combat phases, and the Pilot Skill reverting to the printed one at the end of each Cleanup step... you'll get close to the right interpretation.

Nashtah Pup will be PS 7 if Bossk is the pilot.

Upgrade cards do not transfer from the Hound's Tooth to the Nashtah Pup.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Nashtah Pup will be PS 7 if Bossk is the pilot.

Upgrade cards do not transfer from the Hound's Tooth to the Nashtah Pup.

My symantec argument seems to be unclear:

1. When I start the game, I purchase Bossk, the Hound's Tooth title and Veteran Instincts. Bossk's Pilot card is now PS9.
2. When the YV-666 dies, the Nashtah Pup deploys. Nashtah Pup's pilot skill is equal to that of the friendly ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth title.
-a. What is the ship with the Hound's Tooth title? Bossk's YV-666 is.
-b. What is the pilot skill of Bossk's YV-666? 9

Ergo, the PS for the Nashtah Pup should be 9. It's not about transferring the EPT or any other upgrade card. In fact, you need VI to stay right where it is on Bossk's YV-666 pilot card.

 streamdragon wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Nashtah Pup will be PS 7 if Bossk is the pilot.

Upgrade cards do not transfer from the Hound's Tooth to the Nashtah Pup.

My symantec argument seems to be unclear:

1. When I start the game, I purchase Bossk, the Hound's Tooth title and Veteran Instincts. Bossk's Pilot card is now PS9.
2. When the YV-666 dies, the Nashtah Pup deploys. Nashtah Pup's pilot skill is equal to that of the friendly ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth title.
-a. What is the ship with the Hound's Tooth title? Bossk's YV-666 is.
-b. What is the pilot skill of Bossk's YV-666? 9

Ergo, the PS for the Nashtah Pup should be 9. It's not about transferring the EPT or any other upgrade card. In fact, you need VI to stay right where it is on Bossk's YV-666 pilot card.

The ship and all upgrade cards on the YV-666 are no longer in play when the ship is destroyed.

The wording on the Nashtah Pup pilot card says:

You have the pilot skill and pilot ability of the friendly destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth Upgrade card.

It does not say:

You have the pilot skill and pilot ability of the friendly destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth Upgrade card, along with all other upgrade cards.

If you are running Bossk with the Hound's Tooth Upgrade card, your printed pilot skill is 7. The +2 PS is given via an Elite Talent upgrade card and that card is no longer in play when the ship is destroyed and removed from the table.

It is similar to not being able to use the IG-2000 title card to grant you the pilot ability of a pilot that has been removed from the game.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
The ship and all upgrade cards on the YV-666 are no longer in play when the ship is destroyed.

The wording on the Nashtah Pup pilot card says:

You have the pilot skill and pilot ability of the friendly destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth Upgrade card.

It does not say:

You have the pilot skill and pilot ability of the friendly destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth Upgrade card, along with all other upgrade cards.

If you are running Bossk with the Hound's Tooth Upgrade card, your printed pilot skill is 7. The +2 PS is given via an Elite Talent upgrade card and that card is no longer in play when the ship is destroyed and removed from the table.

It is similar to not being able to use the IG-2000 title card to grant you the pilot ability of a pilot that has been removed from the game.

The first part is blatantly untrue. When a ship is destroyed you are specifically told what to do:

X-Wing core rulebook, page 16
When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship is equal to or greater than its hull value, the ship is immediately destroyed (faceup and facedown cards count toward this total). Immediately remove the destroyed ship from the play area, discard all of its Damage cards to a faceup discard pile next to the Damage deck, and return all of its tokens to their respective supplies.

At no point does it say "remove the Pilot card from the play area". Indeed, the Nashtah Pup card wouldn't work at all if you did so, as then there would be no "friendly destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth upgrade card". In fact, by the text on the Nashtah Pup card we are deliberately told that the ship card is still in play and that there are still upgrade cards on it. Again, the Hound's Tooth wouldn't work at all if discarded everything from the ship when its parent ship is destroyed. If you remove upgrade cards from Bossk's ship then suddenly there is no "friendly destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth upgrade card" for you to reference for Pilot Skill at all.

IF we accept that Bossk's ship card is still in play with the Hound's Tooth attached, and we have to for the Title to be usable at all, then we have to accept that other upgrade cards remain because we are never told to discard them. If Veteran Instincts is still in play, then Bossk's YV-666 ship card is still PS9. If Bossk's YV-666 ship card is still PS9, then the Nashtah Pup would be PS9 as well.

At no point are you told to remove the cards. Ordinarily, they would be unimportant because the ship is dead.

 streamdragon wrote:
The first part is blatantly untrue.

Actually, it is not.

At no point does it say "remove the Pilot card from the play area".

You're right, but you made that part up.

I said "no longer in play," which means that the cards and ship no longer affect the game. Just like in Armada when the ship Admiral Motti is equipped on is destroyed. His effect on the other ships is lost.

Indeed, the Nashtah Pup card wouldn't work at all if you did so, as then there would be no "friendly destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth upgrade card". In fact, by the text on the Nashtah Pup card we are deliberately told that the ship card is still in play and that there are still upgrade cards on it. Again, the Hound's Tooth wouldn't work at all if discarded everything from the ship when its parent ship is destroyed. If you remove upgrade cards from Bossk's ship then suddenly there is no "friendly destroyed ship equipped with the Hound's Tooth upgrade card" for you to reference for Pilot Skill at all.

Again, the card makes no mention of any other upgrade card equipped to the ship other than the Hound's Tooth title. The card tells you that to use the pilot skill and ability of the ship with the Hound's Tooth title. These are the only two cards you look at when determining what the outcome will be:



The +2 pilot skill is granted by an EPT upgrade card and nothing on the Nashtah Pup pilot card suggests that you take that into consideration. The only thing that carries over is ability and pilot skill on the pilot card.

IF we accept that Bossk's ship card is still in play with the Hound's Tooth attached, and we have to for the Title to be usable at all, then we have to accept that other upgrade cards remain because we are never told to discard them. If Veteran Instincts is still in play, then Bossk's YV-666 ship card is still PS9. If Bossk's YV-666 ship card is still PS9, then the Nashtah Pup would be PS9 as well.

Nope. Again, you're making up this "discard the ship cards" thing again. The title states, "After you are destroyed but before you are removed from the play area." The Hound's Tooth card kicks in when the ship is destroyed (it has damage cards equal to or greater than it's hull value). At this point, the ship and it's cards are no longer in play and cannot affect the game. In resolving that status, you trigger the title card. You then deploy the Nashtah Pup Pilot using method in the supplied rule book. After the Pup is deployed, the YV-666 is removed from the game.

On top of all of that, the Nashtah Pup Pilot card looks like this:


Notice the lack of upgrade slots? Nothing transfers from the YV-666 to the Nashtah Pup. Since the +2 PS is granted from a EPT upgrade card, it will not transfer.

At no point are you told to remove the cards. Ordinarily, they would be unimportant because the ship is dead.

No one said remove the cards, they just don't count for anything. Just like with the IG-2000 title.

Sorry, dude... it just doesn't work the way you want it to.

If it still wasn't clear, this came through from a member on the German FFG forum:

Ok, really stupid question because I think FFG is smart enough to have made a different icon specifically for this... the S&V ships that can equip an astromech cannot equip a Rebel astromech, and vice versa, right?

Right.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Ok, really stupid question because I think FFG is smart enough to have made a different icon specifically for this... the S&V ships that can equip an astromech cannot equip a Rebel astromech, and vice versa, right?

Correct. Scum ships get Salvaged Astromechs, which is a different category from just Astromechs.

I am in need of some clarification.

So I have been flying my "Elite Mini Swarm" list.
It consists of..
Canor with VI,
Tur with VI,
Howlrunner with EU and Expert handling,
Mauler with EU and Expert handling,

One of my opponents yesterday had a dispute with how I was flying Howl and Mauler.
As I read the card for Expert Handling, it is an action but it gives you a free action to preform a barrel roll and shake off a target lock. To me that says I get to preform a barrel roll and can still preform another action since it says I get a "FREE" barrel roll action.
My opponent said no and since it uses up your action. Since it is just a friendly tourney I did not press the argument.
I would still like to know who is correct.
Since I want to fly legally (I do not like to cheat).

Your oppenent is correct, your Action was to use Expert Handling, this enables you to barrel roll and discard a Target Lock, the reason it says FREE is otherwise you would not be able to roll having used up your action previously with Expert Handling

But "Expert Handling" gives you a FREE barrel roll and removal of target lock after the barrel roll is complete. So if I used my one action for the turn to do the barrel roll then it was not FREE.

Yes, it gives you a FREE barrel roll because if it wasn't free it wouldn't be legal for you to take it as you'd already used your action that turn to activate expert handling.



You see the "Action" in bold? That is the cost of activating the card. Therefore your action is Expert Handling, and one of the elements of the action "Expert Handling" is a free barrel roll.

I see your point.
Here is the trouble.
This is the actual card I have.


See how, unlike your pic, my card say's preform a "FREE" barrel roll.
Yes it does say it is an action card. So how I read it. I get to do a free barrel roll and remove a target lock during the action phase. Then I get to spend my normal action point on something else since the barrel roll was free.

Why else would I spend points to buy a card that allows me to preform a barrel roll on a ship that already gets a barrel roll? Or am I spending two points to remove a target lock? Then why bother with the barrel roll part of the card and just make "EH" remove one target lock.
For some reason they put free on the card. Even the FAQ says to add the word free to the card.

Here is FFG's clarification on the card.

"A ship can only perform the same action once per
round. A ship equipped with Expert Handling cannot
perform a barrel roll and use the Expert Handling
action in the same round."

To me that says I get to do EH and preform another action.

I am not trying to sound whiny or anything. This is seriously how I interpret all this information.

Nope, the action you have taken is 'Expert Handling', the clarification is for if you somehow acquired another action (ie Squad Leader or Lando) to remind you that you could not use that action to either use Expert Handling again nor Roll as you've already performed both those actions this turn.

Note, all that FREE really means is that is does not count against your usual one action per turn

 Nicorex wrote:
I roll and

Why else would I spend points to buy a card that allows me to preform a barrel roll on a ship that already gets a barrel roll? Or am I spending two points to remove a target lock?

Never fancied being able to barrel roll the Falcon?

It allows you to barrel roll any ship in the game (assuming the pilot has an EPT) regardless of icons on the action bar, and the removal of the target lock is becoming increasingly important as more cards are coming out that convey benefits for having one. It's perhaps isn't a common card just now, but it's stock is on the rise IMO.

As for the free action bit, the pic I used was just of an older copy, the version you have is from a newer print run, but you're not understanding free actions and you were playing it wrong, sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Put it another way, if the card just read "Action: Remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship" you wouldn't feel entitled to another action, would you?

The addition of the "free" text is FFG's way of allowing ships to perform actions they might not have access to via their action bar or to allow you to circumvent the "one action per activation rule." It is the same as BB-8, which allows you to perform a free barrel roll when you reveal a green maneuver, both before your normal time to perform actions and on ships that cannot normally perform a barrel roll.

As far as Expert Handling is concerned, the free part of the card has nothing to do paying the "cost" of activating the card. Since the card has the Action header, you have to spend your action to perform the card. The way this works is you declare Expert Handling as your action and then resolve the card text, performing a free barrel roll (that does not violate the "one action per activation" rule) and removing a target lock, and then receiving a stress token if applicable. You have now used your one action available during your activation, it was just multiple things nestled into one action.

However, you could use Experimental Interface with Expert Handling because it triggers like Push the Limit, except it allows you to use an upgrade card with the Action header instead of being limited to actions on your action bar.

Just wanted to make sure that I was reading things right on the Twin Laser Turret...


It doesn't say that I have to target the same ship with both attacks. For instance, I can target a TIE with only 1 hull left and destroy it on my first attack. I could then attack another ship with the second attack.
Right?

I'm fairly sure both shots have to go against the same ship as its worded 'perform this attack twice against a ship' , it's not exactly rock solid wording but I think that the intention, hopefully someone with better grasp of rules explaining will clarify

Actually, I think I disagree.

The first step of the "Perform Attack" macro is "declare target," so as there's nothing that contradicts performing the whole "Perform Attack" sequence in its entirety, one can declare another target the second time.

The wording "perform this attack twice" is the same as on the Cluster Missiles card which is in the FAQ as specifically attacking the same target twice. Cards that can attack a different target second time around have different wording (such as Gunner's "after you perform an attack that does not hit you may immediately perform a primary weapon attack") that indicate the second attack is an entirely separate attack.

I can see it both ways, but Larva_uk makes a compelling case.

I suppose one could argue that you're not performing an attack twice if you're targeting a different ship the second time, in that case you're performing two attacks rather than one attack twice...

Given the precedent it is probably better to play it like Cluster Missiles and if it emerges the other way then it's a bonus.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I suppose one could argue that you're not performing an attack twice if you're targeting a different ship the second time, in that case you're performing two attacks rather than one attack twice...

Yes, both attacks happen under the ATTACK: header, meaning that one single attack against your target consists of two separate attack rolls, just like Cluster Missile.

Given the precedent it is probably better to play it like Cluster Missiles and if it emerges the other way then it's a bonus.

It's already been decided:

Twin Laser Turret

Twin Laser Turret is treated as two separate attacks against the same target. During the second attack, the “Declare Defender and Weapon” step is skipped.

Page 13 of the FAQ.