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Incidentally a Vendetta has a 37% chance of wrecking an AV 12 outright, a Vanquisher with lascannon and multimeltas has a 6+2+12=20% chance, so I wouldn't take that variety for anti-flyer firepower.

More importantly, a Vendetta will only strip 1.5 hull points, which isn't enough for an outright kill. Also don't flyers get some kind of save against this? 5+ jink would knock that to 1 hull point, but hell if I remember the rule.

2 hyrdras will strip 2 hull points, but only 1/6 chance of exploding it (though that's not too big a deal). Note that there is no jink cover save allowed against this.

So hydras are better at killing vendettas than other vendettas are. How people casually write off dedicated anti-air units in a thread specifically about how to destroy air units, I do not know.

 BryllCream wrote:
Incidentally a Vendetta has a 37% chance of wrecking an AV 12 outright, a Vanquisher with lascannon and multimeltas has a 6+2+12=20% chance, so I wouldn't take that variety for anti-flyer firepower.

More importantly, a Vendetta will only strip 1.5 hull points, which isn't enough for an outright kill. Also don't flyers get some kind of save against this? 5+ jink would knock that to 1 hull point, but hell if I remember the rule.

2 hyrdras will strip 2 hull points, but only 1/6 chance of exploding it (though that's not too big a deal). Note that there is no jink cover save allowed against this.

So hydras are better at killing vendettas than other vendettas are. How people casually write off dedicated anti-air units in a thread specifically about how to destroy air units, I do not know.

This is the classic AC vs LC debate. (following is statistically speaking) The vendetta gets 1 HP after jinks saves but that is a pen 80% of the time. This pen has a 1/3 chance to make the vendetta go boom and will at the least force the flyer to shoot snap shots. For a helldrake this means no shooting at all. The hydra strips 2 HP but only manages 0.5 pens a shooting round. This pen has a 1/6 chance to explode. This is thinking about a flyer that only has jink not helldrakes that have a 5++ invulnerable that still works on the hydra. Also keep in mind if a flyer jinks it has to fire snap shots. Forcing a flyer to fire with 6s and not fire blast/template weapons is much better than putting 2 hull points and letting the flyer fire freely for 2 turns (the turn it comes on and the turn after it took your damage).

Also there is the factor with no interceptor hydras usually get killed by the flyer they were meant to kill. You can reserve hydras but I would rather use a ADL and BiD lascannons for my AA needs than use a hydra or two. They can work okay if you reserve them however you better need to kill 4+ flyers a game for it to be a worthwhile consideration.

BTW ADL is all the AA you need for 1-2 flyer games if you use it well and bring enough alpha strike threats to mess with the opponent's alpha strike. BiD lascannons can often handle another flyer with little problem. So you don't really need AA until the opponent brings 3+ flyers.

I have played IG for years now. In 5th if you did not field a valk/vendetta you could get away with it. However, 6th is upon us. This is the edition of flyers and apparently monstorous creatures (I know the IG don't have one, yet). Fielding a valk is necessary. 130 points for twin linked las cannon goodness, show me a better value anywhere in other codexes. Add 10 points so that weapon destroyed might not be a las cannon.

I run a single valk. I have found that going second is better. With the reserve rules being what they are, most things come in turn two. Let the other players flyer come in, do some damage. Then, your turn, valk comes in kills enemy flyer, and ten destroys stuff or draws a lot of fire the rest of the game.

I don't know what the problem is really, I know I have WAACs in my group. I don't enjoy playing against most of them because I feel they have lost the meaning of the game.

What I do like to do is 6 basilisks, advancing ground infantry, 2 vendettas, and a AGL with 2 Hydras. Even with snap shots I reliably get 2 hits a turn with ground targets and if they draw the wrath of a flyer? I retaliate.

Needless to say I love Guard and I enjoy a good hydra.

 Ailaros wrote:

Makumb wrote:... because there are too many night fight scenarios... I dont own any chimeras... av12 that isnt a flyer doesnt seem to live long enough on tables this days...

It sounds like your problems are more generalized than specific to guard. If you can't handle night fighting, or fliers, or making a mech list work, then the best thing to do is to learn the skills required to make them work. The only answer to your problems isn't vendettas - there are plenty of alternatives. More time playing and practicing new things will help you figure them out, while rushing to a single unit as a crutch isn't going to be as helpful to you over all in the long term.

Makumb wrote:It is nice that you tell me to explore and all. But I dont have the money to buy and check what may work . Specialy when my friends no longer play w40k and all my games would be against strangers .

Then I'll let you explore by proxy.

Click here, to see the nearly 50 games I've played since 6th came out last summer. Dozens of games that explore nearly every main way to play Imperial Guard, and I don't field a single flier that entire time.

I can only hope that it gives you a little inspiration in lieu of a bunch of expensive miniatures purchases.

Go read the bat reps, it's like a college course in how to play IG. I recently tabled a CSM army with all kinds of nasty new goodies, and only suffered 20% casualties...using tips and tactics I learned from the Tactica Ailaros.

BryllCream wrote:Incidentally a Vendetta has a 37% chance of wrecking an AV 12 outright, a Vanquisher with lascannon and multimeltas has a 6+2+12=20% chance, so I wouldn't take that variety for anti-flyer firepower.

But that misses the entire point. It doesn't MATTER that the vendetta is more efficient at shooting down other Vanquishers - that doesn't make it the ONLY source of anti-flier firepower in the entire codex.

What's important here isn't the fact that a vendetta has a 37% chance to blow up a flier, it's that a vanquisher, which you were already bringing to blow up enemy vehicles at the beginning of the game, has, as a secondary feature, a 20% chance to simply throw a vendetta out of the air. That's nearly a half chance in two turns of shooting with something you likely already killed yourself out of prime targets for anyways.

You don't NEED dedicated anti-flier. You can just bring your regular anti-tank stuff and, likely without much waste, effectively down all the aircraft you care to. And that's not even considering other strategic ways to handle fliers...

 Ailaros wrote:
a vanquisher, which you were already bringing to blow up enemy vehicles at the beginning of the game, has, as a secondary feature, a 20% chance to simply throw a vendetta out of the air

No it doesn't. You have a 12.3% chance of killing a Vendetta outright*, IF you take multimelta sponsons and can get all of your guns to fire at a single target AND the Vendetta doesn't evade as soon as you get a lucky hit. If you fire for five turns at a Vendetta with that Vanquisher (a pretty idealistic scenario for the tank) you still only have a 48% chance of killing it outright, with a somewhat better chance of killing it through HP removal. And let's not forget that the Vanquisher costs 200 points compared to 130 for the Vendetta, making it laughably bad as an AA unit.


*The chances of killing it through hull point removal in a single turn are too low to bother with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BryllCream wrote:
of course, you could save yourself considerable time and money by simply giving.up 40k altogether. If you bring vendettas to your gaming group, people simply won't play against you since you may as well remove all their tanks turn two and three.

Yeah, because everyone who plays 40k has no clue what Vendettas are actually capable of and refuses to play against them...

I love playing against you mathhammer types.

Math Wiz- "Well you only have a so-and-so change of doing so-and-so stuff."

*I roll dice*

Math Wiz- "No way. The chances of that happening are blah-blah-blah!"

Me- "I roll dice good, dur."

 DeffDred wrote:
I love playing against you mathhammer types.

I love playing against you anti-mathhammer types, it's so much easier to win when your opponent pretends that probability is not a real thing.

Math Wiz- "No way. The chances of that happening are blah-blah-blah!"

I also like to play against straw man "mathhammer types" who don't understand the difference between "unlikely" and "impossible" and get outraged when an unlikely event happens.

Makumba wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
You could also agree with your opponents not to use flyers.

That is not how people play w40k . If it is in a codex there is no "not allowed"

I am not saying they are "not allowed" I am saying that in the interests of playing to rule 1 in the rule book (I.e. have fun) that you agree certain things with your opponent before the match. One such thing could be to simply avoid flyers.

 Peregrine wrote:
...evade as soon as you get a lucky hit.

You bring up a notable point.Sometimes you don't have to destroy a flier, simply making it evade can reduce its fire power enough. This reminds me of the "brace for impact" order from BFG, where you could take saves at the cost of reduced fire power. In that game, forcing a person to brace could save your fleet a lot of damage. Also, psycology comes in to the decision to evade, which can be interesting to see how people evaluate risk.

An important point to note is that the decision to evade must be done before penetration is rolled. Many of the people I have played against have forgotten this.

Vendettas are awesome. The firepower alone! Lascannons for tough targets, heavy bolters as a backup if facing something more hordish. Add to that the transport capability. Just awesome for the points!

I don't field them though. Instead I field AV 14 russes.

My main rationale is that it's too many points off the table. If you have three in a 1500pts game that is like 1/3 of your army (depending on what you stuff in them). This significant portion of you army has a small, but far from neglectable, chance of not showing up until turn 3. In fact, if you field 3 the chance of at least one showing up late is about 70%.

I haven't played the new Tau, but it also seems they will swat your fliers as flies not warmachines, especially if they show up piece wise. The new Tau may very well upset the current vendetta friendly meta in favor of AV 14 hulls...

Peregrine will eat me for this, but I think there are several builds in the current IG codex that are "good enough". If you are not a really good player entering tournaments to win you won't notice the difference in performance between a sw-allies/triple-vendetta/fw goodies builds and some of the other viable options.

 Ailaros wrote:



Over 6th edition, I've taken down many fliers. I've taken them down with meltaguns (most of the time), and with multimeltas. I've taken them down with vanquisher cannons, and quad guns, and primaris psykers. I've taken them down with lascannons and exterminator cannons. I've taken them down by ignoring them and beating my opponent so badly on the ground game that not even fliers could turn around a complete and dismal defeat.

Any unit in the imperial guard codex that can hurt tanks can hurt fliers. Generally, if your opponent brings a lot of fliers, they're not likely bringing that many other vehicles either, so it's no real loss to point the guns up and swat stuff out of the sky. If your opponent was relying on fliers, and you swat them out of the sky, they're generally done for.

Saying that the only way you could possibly shoot down a flier is with a vendetta displays a colossal lack of creativity. If you're applying the same kind of rigid thinking to the rest of the way you play 40k, then vendettas alone aren't going to be a solution to your problems.

how do you get an non interceptor melta guns with a 18" range and you would need 5-6 to actualy get one 6+ ? Most flyers are av12 or higher and meltaguns are str8 , so you would have to do +4roll and the flyer would have to be without invs and never jink or get 10-12 meltaguns in range of a single flyer . thats is 2 or more units of veterans .


All the lists I seen that run 2-3 flyers have no problems with either runing tank support or stuff that acts the same like mon oblits , necron barges . But then again I did read all the other battle reports you listed for me to read. You seem to be wining a lot against strange armies with 1ksons and triple foot MoT casters or RW lists , but when you play against a normal necron army you lose . You also use Vanquishers a lot , my problem with that is that here they only sell the old Lemman Russ tank kits and those were also the one I bought , I dont have vanquisher turrets and buying 4 extra lemman russ doesnt realy help me play an army

One such thing could be to simply avoid flyers.

No one plays the game like that here . I may as well ask them to let me use FW units , would get the same anwser.

 Flinty wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
You could also agree with your opponents not to use flyers.

That is not how people play w40k . If it is in a codex there is no "not allowed"

I am not saying they are "not allowed" I am saying that in the interests of playing to rule 1 in the rule book (I.e. have fun) that you agree certain things with your opponent before the match. One such thing could be to simply avoid flyers.

Like that no-air Starcraft 1 match I played a bunch of years ago! : D

Where my opponent massed carriers!

And then when I saw them, I ran down two flights of stairs and slapped him real hard across the face while he was trying to tell me that it was my brother's idea...

Yup.whenever I played.rise of nations with my friend, we always agreed no nukes, since they just turned the game into who had the the most nukes. There's a parallel there I think.

 Ailaros wrote:

Makumba wrote:aside for flyers there are no anti flyer units in the IG dex.

that

is

not

true.

Just because you can shoot down fliers with lascannons doesn't mean they're optimal for the task. Let me present these cases, where you get your ass handed to you by a Necron Airforce, as evidence.

...with Foot Guard:
http://www.ailarian.com/folera/batreps/hand-of-the-king/hand-of-king-22-tactical.html

...with Foot Guard & Vanquishers:
http://www.ailarian.com/folera/batreps/hand-of-the-king/hand-of-king-30-tactical.html

...with Carapace Vets:
http://www.ailarian.com/folera/batreps/hand-of-the-king/hand-of-king-6.html

...and in little itty bitty games:
http://www.ailarian.com/folera/batreps/hand-of-the-king/hand-of-king-16-tactical.html

Suggesting that you're doing well in 6th edition, against fliers, without fliers of your own, is intellectually dishonest.

I'm actually building my own IG army that follows those exact same, though self-imposed, restrictions: no Forge-World models and no fliers.

Instead of having a dedicated anti-flier unit, I'm having a fairly large number of weak counters. I use: Heavy Weapons Squads combined with "Bring It Down". Either Lascannon, Autocannon, or Missile Launcher variants can work.

I also use the much despised Leman Russ Exterminator for the 4 twin-linked autocannons.


I also completely bypass Chimeras, and to keep my infantry from getting destroyed in melee, I march them behind an Armoured Sentinel Squadron and give them an attached Ministorum Priest. The idea is for the Sentinels to tie up the enemy in combat, then the guardsmen are guaranteed to get the Furious Charge and put the enemy on their back foot.


To pressure stationary or long-range targets, I use the standard Basilisk with the Earthshaker cannon.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Suggesting that you're doing well in 6th edition, against fliers, without fliers of your own, is intellectually dishonest.

lol. Firstly, yeah, look at me, the dark end evil rogue trying to lead the little children astray with the candy coated lies of a perfect record.

BWA HA HA HA HAAAAAA!!!!!!

Secondly, just because I've lost a few dice games in the past does not mean that the only way to handle fliers is with vendettas.

Thirdly, if you're going to use said data, use it correctly. In game 30 for example, I lost the game because my opponent rolled 4 6's in a row on turn 1, followed by my entire army failing to roll above a 4. The correct lesson to take from that game isn't "you need vendettas to handle a list with fliers" - fliers which, I should note, only killed some infantry before the barge lords ended the game - as much as it is "when you're really unlucky, and your opponent is really lucky, you tend to loose games".

The simple fact is that any weapon with anti-tank capabilities can shoot down fliers. An army filled with anti-tank capabilities can thus shoot down the fliers of an army that contains them. Any units in my army with anti-tank capabilities that don't have more important tanks that they need to take down (or are out of range of them, but not of fliers, as happens to be the case with meltaguns), can attack fliers efficiently - not because they're better than vendettas, but because shooting down fliers is more useful than not doing anything at all.

Denying what is plainly true so that you can try and misapply burden of proof arguments using data that doesn't say what you want it to in order to throw down non-sequiturs seems much more intellectually dishonest than throwing down data points that show that it's possible to take down fliers without vendettas when someone else is claiming that it's impossible.

 Ailaros wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Suggesting that you're doing well in 6th edition, against fliers, without fliers of your own, is intellectually dishonest.

lol. Firstly, yeah, look at me, the dark end evil rogue trying to lead the little children astray with the candy coated lies of a perfect record.

BWA HA HA HA HAAAAAA!!!!!!

Secondly, just because I've lost a few dice games in the past does not mean that the only way to handle fliers is with vendettas.

Thirdly, if you're going to use said data, use it correctly. In game 30 for example, I lost the game because my opponent rolled 4 6's in a row on turn 1, followed by my entire army failing to roll above a 4. The correct lesson to take from that game isn't "you need vendettas to handle a list with fliers" - fliers which, I should note, only killed some infantry before the barge lords ended the game - as much as it is "when you're really unlucky, and your opponent is really lucky, you tend to loose games".

The simple fact is that any weapon with anti-tank capabilities can shoot down fliers. An army filled with anti-tank capabilities can thus shoot down the fliers of an army that contains them. Any units in my army with anti-tank capabilities that don't have more important tanks that they need to take down (or are out of range of them, but not of fliers, as happens to be the case with meltaguns), can attack fliers efficiently - not because they're better than vendettas, but because shooting down fliers is more useful than not doing anything at all.

Denying what is plainly true so that you can try and misapply burden of proof arguments using data that doesn't say what you want it to in order to throw down non-sequiturs seems much more intellectually dishonest than throwing down data points that show that it's possible to take down fliers without vendettas when someone else is claiming that it's impossible.

Then maybe you can provide us with some examples of IG "efficiently" taking down enemy fliers with the AT weapons you're using?

Admittedly it wasn't at all an in-depth analysis of your battle reports. I just looked for every Batrep with a Necron opponent, in 6th edition, and posted links. I may have missed some. I thought the fact that they were all losses was pretty solid evidence against using IG without Vendettas.

 Ailaros wrote:
Denying what is plainly true so that you can try and misapply burden of proof arguments using data that doesn't say what you want it to in order to throw down non-sequiturs seems much more intellectually dishonest than throwing down data points that show that it's possible to take down fliers without vendettas when someone else is claiming that it's impossible.

o_o

:: massages temples and closes eyes :: Owwww... That sentence was too long and had too many big words for me...

 Ailaros wrote:
Denying what is plainly true so that you can try and misapply burden of proof arguments using data that doesn't say what you want it to in order to throw down non-sequiturs seems much more intellectually dishonest than throwing down data points that show that it's possible to take down fliers without vendettas when someone else is claiming that it's impossible.

Nice straw man. Nobody is saying that it's impossible to take down flyers without Vendettas (or FW units), we're saying that you can't do it effectively. Yes, you can always throw up a wall of fire and hope for 6s if you don't have anything better to do, but that's not the same thing as bringing an effective counter. You're paying way too much for that "AA", and have way too little chance of success. As an anti-flyer plan it's clearly inferior to Vendettas, and the only reason to use it is if you're playing under weird self-imposed limits about Vendettas and other good units.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Denying what is plainly true so that you can try and misapply burden of proof arguments using data that doesn't say what you want it to in order to throw down non-sequiturs seems much more intellectually dishonest than throwing down data points that show that it's possible to take down fliers without vendettas when someone else is claiming that it's impossible.

Nice straw man. Nobody is saying that it's impossible to take down flyers without Vendettas (or FW units), we're saying that you can't do it effectively. Yes, you can always throw up a wall of fire and hope for 6s if you don't have anything better to do, but that's not the same thing as bringing an effective counter. You're paying way too much for that "AA", and have way too little chance of success. As an anti-flyer plan it's clearly inferior to Vendettas, and the only reason to use it is if you're playing under weird self-imposed limits about Vendettas and other good units.

And here's the issue that needs to be addressed.

Define "Effectively." What is the precise percentage chance of success necessary for a strategy to be effective?
I see two sides battling with each other because they disagree on the various definitions of effective. Remember, if you have two options and one is "Most efficient" that does not, in turn, mean that other options are not effective

 Hashbeth wrote:
Define "Effectively." What is the precise percentage chance of success necessary for a strategy to be effective?

There is no exact percentage, but it depends on two things:

1) Is this a reliable counter, or am I hoping to get lucky to have any chance of success?

2) How much does it cost relative to other options which give similar reliability?

#1 can be answered in absolute terms, but #2 is always relative. You can't give a single "effectiveness" rating (since any unit can be reliable if you spam it enough) without comparing relative point costs. So I don't have an objective scale to talk about, but in this case the gap is so wide that it's safe to use "effective" and "not effective". For example:

Ailaros claims that a LR Vanquisher can kill a flyer. However, it has a 12.3% chance of an outright kill against a Vendetta, meaning that if you shoot at a Vendetta for the entire game you're still only getting a 50/50 chance of success. That's not at all reliable, and it costs 200 points.

A Vendetta has a 33% chance of killing another Vendetta outright (plus another 5% chance of killing it by removing all three HP in a single turn), which is three times as good as the Vanquisher for only 130 points.

So, if an equal point value of Vendettas is 4.5 times as likely to kill a Vendetta it's pretty safe to say that the LR Vanquisher doesn't even come close to being an effective AA unit. You can shoot at a flyer with one if you really need to (or have nothing better to do with it), but you're insane if you take one in your list with the intent of using it for AA instead of taking Vendettas.

Peregrine wrote:Nice straw man. Nobody is saying that it's impossible to take down flyers without Vendettas (or FW units)

Umm...

Makumba wrote:I know very well that aside for flyers there are no anti flyer units in the IG dex.

BunkerBob wrote: but I have to use flyers to keep enemy air away.

... except they are. And that's just from this thread. I've seen this attitude expressed elsewhere as well.

Peregrine wrote:Yes, you can always throw up a wall of fire and hope for 6s if you don't have anything better to do, but that's not the same thing as bringing an effective counter.

A counter is effective, in this case, if it shoots down a flier. I've shot down plenty a flier with plenty of different kinds of weapons, therefore there are many ways to effectively handle fliers.

It is true that some weapons are more effective for their cost at taking down fliers, but what you're making an argument for is efficiency of AA, not effectiveness of AA. You don't need efficient firepower to handle fliers, and often, having the ability to shoot at fliers rather than nothing (or junk targets) means that your opponent bringing fliers makes your killing power MORE efficient, rather than less.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Then maybe you can provide us with some examples of IG "efficiently" taking down enemy fliers with the AT weapons you're using?

I already have. I've shot down fliers with lascannons, meltaguns, mutlimeltas, vanquisher cannons, exterminator cannons, hydra cannons, and lightning arc, amongst others. Hell, I've blown off the bale flamer of a helldrake with a thrown krak grenade before which, against my infantry list at the time was basically the same as destroying it.

In any case, I really don't understand the argument being made here. It's like noting that lasguns are bad against terminators. So what? I'm already bringing the lasguns, and I've certainly killed terminators with FRF before, in ways that made an impact on the outcome of the game. Saying that a lasgun isn't as good against terminators as a plasma gun is just as pointless as saying that melta mechvets aren't as good as a vendetta.

They can still kill stuff. That's what matters.

Ailaros...anecdotal evidence about killing fliers with sub-optimal weapons contributes nothing to the argument that you can play IG competitively without fliers. In every game I listed, you lost. With more effective anti-air (i.e., Vendettas), you may have won.

You seem to be arguing that the anti-tank weapons you bring are sufficient to fight fliers. While they are certainly capable of downing fliers, I think that your record against flier-heavy armies suggests that ground-to-ground anti-tank weapons are insufficient, or at least woefully inefficient, for killing fliers.

Watching Peregrine and Ailaros duke it out is always entertaining.

If you want Anti-Air that isn't vendettas, get some Sabre Defense Platforms behind Aegis Lines. They have Skyfire, Interceptor, can duck beneath the Aegis Line and then get ordered to get back up.

Downside is that Heldrakes make them their bitches, but at least you'll get a chance to intercept that Heldrake with three plus twin linked lascannons.

 Ailaros wrote:
... except they are. And that's just from this thread. I've seen this attitude expressed elsewhere as well.

Sigh. Do you really think that they're saying "no non-Vendetta unit is ever capable of shooting down a flyer, no matter how lucky you get or how many shots you throw at it" instead of "no non-Vendetta unit is good at shooting down flyers"?

A counter is effective, in this case, if it shoots down a flier. I've shot down plenty a flier with plenty of different kinds of weapons, therefore there are many ways to effectively handle fliers.

That is not true at all. A counter is effective if it is likely to get the job done, for a reasonable point cost. The fact that you've occasionally had good luck and shot down flyers with ineffective units doesn't magically make them effective. The plural of anecdote is not data, after all.

It is true that some weapons are more effective for their cost at taking down fliers, but what you're making an argument for is efficiency of AA, not effectiveness of AA.

And you're inventing an arbitrary difference between efficiency and effectiveness. In a game with point costs they're the same thing. If we're talking about equal points spent on two possibilities the more efficient one will also be the more effective one.

In any case, I really don't understand the argument being made here. It's like noting that lasguns are bad against terminators. So what? I'm already bringing the lasguns, and I've certainly killed terminators with FRF before, in ways that made an impact on the outcome of the game. Saying that a lasgun isn't as good against terminators as a plasma gun is just as pointless as saying that melta mechvets aren't as good as a vendetta.

The point is that if you need dedicated AA instead of being able to settle for randomly damaging a flyer occasionally (because flyers cause you trouble and you need them dead NOW) you bring Vendettas. None of your "alternatives" are good enough to depend on for that role.

Surely Guard is the only force with actually dedicated ground based AA, in that Hydras are only Skyfire all other codexes either have no skyfire, or the weapons are multi-purpose AA/AG.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:anecdotal evidence about killing fliers with sub-optimal weapons contributes nothing to the argument that you can play IG competitively without fliers.

I don't think you understand the idea of burden of proof. If you make the statement that it's impossible to handle fliers without vendettas, then you need only a single counterexample to prove that false (and thus, by extension, prove the opposite "it is possible to handle fliers without vendettas" to be true). Likewise, if you're going to say that you can't win a game against fliers without vendettas, then I'd need to provide only a single counterexample to prove the opposite to be true.

The real question, here, is what is your definition of "competitive"? If it means not losing a dice game ever, then we're not even remotely speaking the same language.

In any case, if you want to throw out a few games as anecdotes, rather than data points, and then say that you won't be convinced without data, then once again, the burden is on you. You have to provide enough examples of your point of view being correct by your own definition so that you have reached past the point of anecdotes into data. And you can't have lost any of them either, because your empirical approach would then be tainted by anomaly.

Good luck with that.

 Ailaros wrote:
I don't think you understand the idea of burden of proof. If you make the statement that it's impossible to handle fliers without vendettas, then you need only a single counterexample to prove that false (and thus, by extension, prove the opposite "it is possible to handle fliers without vendettas" to be true). Likewise, if you're going to say that you can't win a game against fliers without vendettas, then I'd need to provide only a single counterexample to prove the opposite to be true.

Which is only a problem if you're deliberately over-literal and insist that people are arguing that it's impossible, and not merely unlikely or ineffective.

The real question, here, is what is your definition of "competitive"? If it means not losing a dice game ever, then we're not even remotely speaking the same language.

It means trying as hard as possible to win, within the rules of the game (IOW, not cheating). You're the only one talking about this ridiculous straw man of not ever losing a game, the rest of us are quite happy to talk about what is best for your chances of winning. And the simple fact is that if you're playing competitively and want AA you take Vendettas and ignore random anecdotes about thrown krak grenades killing Helldrakes.

You have to provide enough examples of your point of view being correct by your own definition so that you have reached past the point of anecdotes into data.

We've provided the math. It is indisputable that non-Vendetta units are laughably ineffective compared to Vendettas in the AA role. Therefore if you need AA and don't take Vendettas you're hurting your chances of winning.