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 Buzzsaw wrote:

greywulf wrote:
When I was speaking about Kingdom Death I was talking about communication, and specifically referring to the fact that from the get go Adam (Kingdom Death man) was almost always at least 3 hours behind on updates. It was a bit of a downer at first but his updates always pulled me back up... The last 2 updates from Raging Heroes have done the same for me. Yah... cause I'm a junkie, and I need a hit...

As for stretches, KDM also averaged about 1 a day, and I'll admit I was hesitant about a few things for the first few days but by the end of the campaign was more than satisfied. I trust it will be the same here.

Uh, what?

KD:M launched at midnight on Friday, November 23, 2012.

48 hours later Adam had posted his tenth update. This also marked the unlock of the first paid add-on (all previous updates had been announcements of free additions to either the base game or the Survivor pledge level). 48 hours into the campaign, Adam had given backers the following;
-5 Kings Men,
-1 Extra Phoenix monster,
-1 Extra Watcher monster,
-16 (8 male, 8 female) multipose miniatures.

It was not until after all the above was added that Adam put up the first paid add-on (the Flower Knight expansion).

And yet he was hours behind each update, as I said, and the average by the end of the campaign was about a stretch a day. I said nothing about freebies for various reasons. On the freebie front I want to wait another week to see how things turn out before making any final judgment.

 pretre wrote:
I feel like I should pledge a couple bucks just to pay for all the entertainment derived from their KS drama.

Teh drama is included in your DCM pledge.

 Azazelx wrote:

Sythica wrote:
Part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the purpose of Kickstarter. Making a pledge does not make you a customer. It makes you a backer. When you pledge, there is absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything in return for your pledge. They may go out of business between now and delivery. If that makes you uncomfortable, wait for the product to go up for pre-order on a webstore. Then you will be a customer, not a backer.

And therefore, as a backer, it should be in your best interest to see the total amount of pledges and backers increase. That should help ensure a strong, future customer base.

You have three choices as a backer: passive support, active support, or counter-productive support. Being an active supporter doesn't mean you should ignore the things they are doing wrong. It means you should bring it to their attention directly, not to the attention of people who may be on the fence about backing in the future.

OK new poster. We've had the "purpose of kickstarter" debate multiple times ad nauseum in the past, and we're pretty much all past it at this stage, even Zweischneid (sp?). I don't think anyone here is interested in your lecture on what you think we "should" be doing, and frankly, it's rather condescending for someone with 8 posts to come on and start telling the rest of us what we should and should not be talking about and how we should best do it. Yes, your post count is actually significant in this case, as you're not an established member of the community at this stage, and so while you're most welcome to join in discussions, people tend not to look too kindly on "strangers" coming in and trying to tell existing communities how to behave. Most online forums including Dakka - and indeed, different sections of the Dakka board - as a whole are essentially different communities and sub-communities with different "regulars" and in turn, different social norms. Try acting the same way you might on Frothers here on Dakka and you'll see. I post slightly differently here than the way I do on my own blog, or f13.

Frankly, people in an established community with established norms tend not to appreciate new posters* coming in and attempting to direct traffic in this manner. So please bear that in mind.
(and even if you've been lurking for the last 18 months.. 8 posts makes you a new poster)

So please be welcome, stay, join in and contribute to the discussion. Don't tell us how we "should" behave or what we "should" post.

Whoa, there Azazelx! Sounds like a bit of a sore spot. I understand that someone new coming in and trying to throw their weight around is very annoying (and I personally agree with you; I hate that crap) but I don't think that was necessarily what was happening here. I think that Sythica was trying to bring up a legitimate point, not railroad us into doing things his way. Personally, I think his post makes a whole lot of sense. In addition, his post is composed with a degree of civility and logic that I often find sadly lacking on forums, so I hope he sticks around Dakka!


That being said, Sythica, this is one of those 'matter of perception' situations. I (and I think Azazelx) see this matter a little differently. I take the view that I am agreeing to pay in advance for my order so that they will be able to get the project going. Just because Kickstarter calls us backers doesn't mean we're equal partners in the business venture, taking miniatures in lieu of money, anymore than Kickstarter's use of the term 'donation' doesn't mean we're contributing to a charity. We are customers, just customers who are enthused enough about the product to pay in advance. I am a customer, even though I'm not getting minis today. I'm just a customer who is enamored enough with the product to not only pay WELL in advance (even if it takes well into 2014) but to take the risk of the company folding. (Although I would be very, very sad.) You're point of view is likely to lead you to be more sanguine about the company collapsing, but it's not the only view out there. As a sidenote, welcome to Dakka!

 Ouze wrote:
I don't think someone's post count virtually ever influences the accuracy or value of their posts.

I found their post to be distinctly about proscribing how we should be behaving here, rather than sharing an opinion on the KS. It's about social norms, respect and awareness. We'e had the "purpose of KS" argument a million times already, and with that as the opening statement followed by telling people here how they should act, it's not an especially valuable contribution to the discussion. I'm much more likely to take on board a post by you, Kroot, Squig or even Duncan Idaho suggesting how we should post/behave, because those people are established members of the community and have made numerous worthwhile contributions.

For example, it's like me wandering into your house, finding you slouched on your couch drinking a 3-litre Coke, smoking a cigar and then telling you off for poor posture, diabetes, nicotine addiction and throat cancer. Maybe your friends or wife can tell you off for that, but until we get to know each other a bit better first it's probably better that I don't make that my introduction to you...

NOW EVERYONE DO WHAT I SAY! ESPECIALLY YOU, THE READER!!1!!
yeah, people love that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

greywulf wrote:
I said nothing about freebies for various reasons. On the freebie front I want to wait another week to see how things turn out before making any final judgment.

Wait for the final day or two before being too concerned about those. While it's not a great/encouraging start, we've got a long way to go yet.

 Azazelx wrote:


Of course. But that's part of the game. And it's why "Early Bird" pledges exist - to stop us from waiting until the second-last day to pledge.

Can you explain Mantic's approach, then? It was like a game of red light/green light.

I really hope RGH doesn't wait to throw in plastics as some absurd stretch goal in the last half hour. I also hope they lose the arrogance that just assumes they will break a million dollars on this project no matter how little effort they put into it.

I have to restrain myself from posting questions about the possibility of plastics over and over.

Cause I'd really like them.

You know.

I wouldn't make a company of female Space Marines or anything.

Not at all...

 Azazelx wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I don't think someone's post count virtually ever influences the accuracy or value of their posts.

I found their post to be distinctly about proscribing how we should be behaving here, rather than sharing an opinion on the KS. It's about social norms, respect and awareness. We'e had the "purpose of KS" argument a million times already, and with that as the opening statement followed by telling people here how they should act, it's not an especially valuable contribution to the discussion. I'm much more likely to take on board a post by you, Kroot, Squig or even Duncan Idaho suggesting how we should post/behave, because those people are established members of the community and have made numerous worthwhile contributions.

For example, it's like me wandering into your house, finding you slouched on your couch drinking a 3-litre Coke, smoking a cigar and then telling you off for poor posture, diabetes, nicotine addiction and throat cancer. Maybe your friends or wife can tell you off for that, but until we get to know each other a bit better first it's probably better that I don't make that my introduction to you...

NOW EVERYONE DO WHAT I SAY! ESPECIALLY YOU, THE READER!!1!!
yeah, people love that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

greywulf wrote:
I said nothing about freebies for various reasons. On the freebie front I want to wait another week to see how things turn out before making any final judgment.

Wait for the final day or two before being too concerned about those. While it's not a great/encouraging start, we've got a long way to go yet.

It isn't your house it's yakfaces house :/ if your a guest in someones' house I assume you act welcoming to people who've just arrived.

You have had the discussion on KS a million times, but the poster you lambasted hasn't or doesn't agree with you.

As for post count meaning something, pffft post count means nothing it's just some crap way of whining "i've been in this club longer".

Anyone got a source for wheeled scifi APCs (think Aliens) in the United States? I think my Kruganova girls need some armored support...

It's not, technically, any one poster's house. It's more accurate to say that it's a public park we all enjoy (sponsored by a private, wealthy benefactor), that also has a pool that's full of pee yet queerly popular anyway (...that's a different topic). Anyway, I didn't see it as "telling us what to do" so much as pointing out their perspective of what they consider to be counter-useful.

I don't agree with the thought you need to earn a place on Dakka to weigh in on things, generally - and from the administrative postings Yakface and Lego have made about not wanting there to be too many DCM features because they want the same experience available to everyone; I suspect they don't either - but we're well offtopic now I suppose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Anyone got a source for wheeled scifi APCs (think Aliens) in the United States? I think my Kruganova girls need some armored support...

You can find actual Aliens APC's in the right scale on Ebay, such as here.

For things styled the same, I think you might like Antenocitis Workshop quite a bit.

Perfect Ouze, I think the Kabardin is my first choice for the Kruganova.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Anyone got a source for wheeled scifi APCs (think Aliens) in the United States? I think my Kruganova girls need some armored support...

The Dreamforge APC is a beast. Not avaialble for purchase yet, but hopefully by end of year.

Yeah, the Kabardin is a great fit, this is probably the excuse I've needed to get a few myself.

Dreamforge Games has an APC that's not out yet, but almost certainly will be by the time the RH stuff ships.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ninja'd!

On that note, anyone have a good source for an anti-aircraft mount that would be the right scale for 40k? My RH minis are going to be the infantry of my guard list, but I'm going to need a could of Hydras to round it out...

 Azazelx wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:
Yes. The three month wait front-loaded the pledges, so they should have responded by front-loading the stretch goals - at least the ones that don't give you anything free. If $300,000 is enough to justify making everything in all three ranges, they should have made everything in all three ranges. Dicking around with things like this just punishes everyone for pledging promptly - we would all be better off if people had pledged $20,000 on the first day and stopped and waited until Raging Heroes locked themselves into a new block of stretch goals.

Of course. But that's part of the game. And it's why "Early Bird" pledges exist - to stop us from waiting until the second-last day to pledge.

"The game" stinks. "The game" is why I went out of my way to tell Raging Heroes before the Kickstarter started that I have less desire to support a company that expects its customers to jump through hoops just to buy their product. I'm going to be seriously annoyed if we miss out on the proper plastics because Raging Heroes was fething around with this gamification of pre-orders instead of just getting on with it.

I think it's safe to say we've already hit the slow part of the campaign.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Anyone got a source for wheeled scifi APCs (think Aliens) in the United States? I think my Kruganova girls need some armored support...

Khurasan makes some in 28mm too, nice stuff for cheap. Though they are out of stock atm.

Has Raging Heroes actually said anything about plastics? Ever? I looked again on their website, and the Kickstarter page, and still haven't found it. The only mention I have found is similar Kickstarters from other companies and speculation within this thread. Is there some official mention of plastic minis that I've missed (a very real possibility given the hectic two days I've had) or is this all supposition?

I pledged my money with no expectation of plastic minis. As I understand it, plastic holds less detail than resin or metal. Since I'm in this for pretty minis, not cheap ones, I would be severely disappointed if I wound up with figs that were cheaper, but lower quality.

 Jimsolo wrote:
On that note, anyone have a good source for an anti-aircraft mount that would be the right scale for 40k? My RH minis are going to be the infantry of my guard list, but I'm going to need a could of Hydras to round it out...

I like the one from Old Crow, but they might be hard to find, the site seems to indicate he's on some project. but email him if you like it and see.



There is also Bitspudlo.



Or, Ratgard's Hedgehog (maybe too spendy).

 Jimsolo wrote:
Has Raging Heroes actually said anything about plastics? Ever? I looked again on their website, and the Kickstarter page, and still haven't found it.

Scroll all the way to the bottom of the main Kickstarter page.

- We split the casting between two foundries: One in metal and one in resin, so that neither gets overwhelmed with volume should this KS exceed expectations. And if this Kickstarter was to go extremely well, we also have back-up plans for injected plastics.

I'd rather have RGH go with metal and resin, some things they know about and proved they can deal with, than having them trying plastic for such a large campaign. The only thing it would add is delays.

Indeed, unless they've been working to get at least one plastic tool cut so that they can ensure it lives up to their usual stands then a last ditch switch to plastic for this KS is probably not going to be a good thing.

On the subject of yesterday's update, it's a shame that we're still seeing 20k between stretch goals, but I guess once we have a couple of slower days that'll probably change.

That said, I am a little surprised that we've not had a few more pledges since the update given "everyone" was going crazy for the nurse that's now the 350k unlock. Guess we'd have had more if she was thrown in free at 350k rather than available to purchase.

Current count: $305,879 - 1,322 pledges

The main mistake RGH made was to assume that a 30% discount on retail price is a deal good enough for people. They should have put the normal price, and throw 30% of "free" minis in it ...

Do you guys think that RH would really lower the gap between stretches at this point when they realize that the campaign has stalled? I just get the impression that they are going to stick with how they are running things now.

grefven wrote:
Do you guys think that RH would really lower the gap between stretches at this point when they realize that the campaign has stalled? I just get the impression that they are going to stick with how they are running things now.

I really can't say, they seem to chop and change a lot. This can be good and bad, but I am a little surprised at no freebies before $300k, so maybe it really did freak them out and they wanted to wait until it stopped.

Way, way, way too early to talk about the campaign stalling.

The numbers are fairly typical for a kickstarter loaded with highly-limited early birds and an extremely long amount of hype leading up t it.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Way, way, way too early to talk about the campaign stalling.

The numbers are fairly typical for a kickstarter loaded with highly-limited early birds and an extremely long amount of hype leading up t it.

The difference with this KS is that this one was building up for 5 months. So unless they add more during the campaign it's not going to chug along in the same way (as there really isn't much reason to up pledges at the moment).

It's really just looking at new pledges... which will be slow.

Unless they open up an option for other people who do not believe in the conveniece of credit cards like me.

 Symbio Joe wrote:
Unless they open up an option for other people who do not believe in the conveniece of credit cards like me.

I doubt that very much.

 JeffVimes wrote:
The main mistake RGH made was to assume that a 30% discount on retail price is a deal good enough for people. They should have put the normal price, and throw 30% of "free" minis in it ...

Like I said, Goldsword prices for basic infantry.

 Symbio Joe wrote:
Unless they open up an option for other people who do not believe in the conveniece of credit cards like me.

This is pretty much guaranteed. The fees are lower on Paypal than Amazon+Kickstarter, so they're actually better off if people do this.

The tradeoff is Amazon/Kickstarter have no dispute process or other mechanism for forced refunds, while Paypal does - that can lead to it's own headaches.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 JeffVimes wrote:
The main mistake RGH made was to assume that a 30% discount on retail price is a deal good enough for people. They should have put the normal price, and throw 30% of "free" minis in it ...

Like I said, Goldsword prices for basic infantry.

 Symbio Joe wrote:
Unless they open up an option for other people who do not believe in the conveniece of credit cards like me.

This is pretty much guaranteed. The fees are lower on Paypal than Amazon+Kickstarter, so they're actually better off if people do this.

Yes, but as part of the KS it's less likely.
You could just buy them directly from them using pay-pal