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This thread is really 70 pages of petty....

Bullockist wrote:
This thread is really 70 pages of petty....

Not quite. Some of the points are fairly legitimate, and there's some good conversation in here about the KS in general.

But there's quite a bit of the petty floating about too.

A bit of petty, yes. Although I do think some important questions have been asked. But, honestly, I believe that we are getting lovely looking miniatures for a very fair price, when they become available, at a not insignificant discount to planned retail price. I'm alright with this.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I think most people went into this expecting the models to be expensive, Alex. We've talked about this before, but the higher quality of the miniatures, as well as the fact that they aren't doing them in plastic (not now and not in the foreseeable future) means that they're going to wind up being more than GW rank and file troops. I'm sorry this upsets you, but I don't think that aspect of this KS is going to change.

I'm really mystified as to what people are seeing as unethical here.

So what is the finished material ? is it resin or metal ? sorry if this has been posted before

 lone dirty dog wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I think most people went into this expecting the models to be expensive, Alex. We've talked about this before, but the higher quality of the miniatures, as well as the fact that they aren't doing them in plastic (not now and not in the foreseeable future) means that they're going to wind up being more than GW rank and file troops. I'm sorry this upsets you, but I don't think that aspect of this KS is going to change.

I'm really mystified as to what people are seeing as unethical here.

So what is the finished material ? is it resin or metal ? sorry if this has been posted before

In the past, they did both and you could choose. Don't know about now.

Oh, and regarding the pricing issues - I have a feeling that this is a boutique company, i.e they will price their models as more expensive than the competition because of the aesthetic and the perceived elite status that comes with having the minis. That's why their prices are higher than those of Skirmish games.

 lone dirty dog wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I think most people went into this expecting the models to be expensive, Alex. We've talked about this before, but the higher quality of the miniatures, as well as the fact that they aren't doing them in plastic (not now and not in the foreseeable future) means that they're going to wind up being more than GW rank and file troops. I'm sorry this upsets you, but I don't think that aspect of this KS is going to change.

I'm really mystified as to what people are seeing as unethical here.

So what is the finished material ? is it resin or metal ? sorry if this has been posted before

As I understand it, spin cast resin for the boxes and metal for the heroes.

As I understand it, spin cast resin for the boxes and metal for the heroes.

Have RH done any spin cast resin before? can they show any examples?

working out the numbers on my side ..I am at about 5 dollars a miniature ...a little less...given that gw sells some box set at am average of 7-8 dollars a mini and heroes at 20.....5 dollars mini is pretty dam nice

 Jimsolo wrote:

 lone dirty dog wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I think most people went into this expecting the models to be expensive, Alex. We've talked about this before, but the higher quality of the miniatures, as well as the fact that they aren't doing them in plastic (not now and not in the foreseeable future) means that they're going to wind up being more than GW rank and file troops. I'm sorry this upsets you, but I don't think that aspect of this KS is going to change.

I'm really mystified as to what people are seeing as unethical here.

So what is the finished material ? is it resin or metal ? sorry if this has been posted before

As I understand it, spin cast resin for the boxes and metal for the heroes.

Thats a shame ( don't worry only a personal gripe ) I saw some conversion potential in a couple of the heroes and metal is a pain in the arse to alter and cut.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
The "discount" on the pledges is profoundly misleading, bordering on violating some real ethical rules.

The thing is everything is very transparent unlike a lot of other kickstarters (if we neglect math errors and a price correction on some troops boxes). The numbers were there from day one and everyone could calculate his individual savings. I wouldn't classify that as unethical at all (rather the opposite).

 vic wrote:

As I understand it, spin cast resin for the boxes and metal for the heroes.

Have RH done any spin cast resin before? can they show any examples?

I don't believe they have, Vic. This is their first foray into spin cast resin, though I do believe their plan is to work with an established caster to produce them.

somewheresomehow wrote:
Azazelx, they finally put in the cost for the "free upgrades" to the 15 dollar troop boxes, since those hadn't been factored in (originally.)

So they bumped the prices of the troop boxes? For the KS or the RRP?

It seems counter-productive in terms of customer relations (or, to put it another way, a stupid PR move) to increase the RRP to take into consideration stuff that was pretty much a given to be included.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
This thread is really 70 pages of petty....

Not quite. Some of the points are fairly legitimate, and there's some good conversation in here about the KS in general.
But there's quite a bit of the petty floating about too.

What can I say? That mix is a part of Dakka. Welcome to every single Kickstarter thread. If people want bunnies and sunshine and naught but positive and/or sycophantic comments, this is the wrong forum for you. If someone doesn't like this thread, stay the hell away from any thread with "GW" in the title.

Welcome to every single discussion everywhere, not just on the Internet, and certainly not just on Dakka Dakka.

Multiple opinions are encouraged, and welcomed.

Moving on, please...

 Alpharius wrote:
Multiple opinions are encouraged, and welcomed.

That is certainly not true for dakkadakka or at least this thread.

I disagree.

But again, time to move on.

 rayphoton wrote:
working out the numbers on my side ..I am at about 5 dollars a miniature ...a little less...given that gw sells some box set at am average of 7-8 dollars a mini and heroes at 20.....5 dollars mini is pretty dam nice

I would say more or less the same price for non-heroes, and definitley less for heroes.
For non-heroes:

RH 3(regular)-4(heavy)$ in KS

RH 4,3(regular)-5(heavy)$ for RRP

GW goes from 2,9 $ for a cadian (troop), 3,7 $ for a SM (troop), 3,95$ for a storm trooper (elite), 6,6$ for DE Wrack (elite), to 10$ for a Wraithguard (elite)

that just comparing dollars...if you normalize looking at the quality...

Sergio Tulkas wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
working out the numbers on my side ..I am at about 5 dollars a miniature ...a little less...given that gw sells some box set at am average of 7-8 dollars a mini and heroes at 20.....5 dollars mini is pretty dam nice

I would say more or less the same price for non-heroes, and less for heroes.
For non-heroes:

RH 3(regular)-4(heavy)$ in KS

RH 4,3(regular)-5(heavy)$ for RRP

GW goes from 2,9 $ for a cadian (troop), 3,7 $ for a SM (troop), 3,95$ for a storm trooper (elite), 6,6$ for DE Wrack (elite), to 10$ for a Wraithguard (elite)

My box of 5 striking scorpions was 35,,,same for my reapers. I haven't priced cadians or sm in a long time as i have all that i need but ...eldar sure ain't cheap

Also I'm expecting my RH minis to look much better and provide more pose alternatives than the cadians did. I hope

finally my prices do include the free minis who lower the over all average of everything. I'm sort of doing a how much does everything put together and average how much each mini comes out as.

MSRP without freebies......i don't even want to consider the cost

 rayphoton wrote:
I'm sort of doing a how much does everything put together and average how much each mini comes out as.

Yeh, that's kinda what I do. Right now my plan is $175 for 35 (high quality) minis + whatever freebies. Not including postage, it's $5 a model (less if you include the freebies). I'm absolutely alright with this deal.

Crunching numbers can be fun, and it has been interesting to read your findings guys. But I think at the end of the campaign, all you can do is decide what models you'd like, add up the total cost and think "does this represent decent value, and am I happy to spend this much money on this much stuff?". The math work is all great but really at the end it'll be a personal, individual decision for each of us to make based on our own differing perceptions of value for money.

And also when we think about value, we have to consider less quantitative factors. Someone who loves these minis (or art) and has been waiting years for something like this to come along, is going to place a higher value, and is going to willing to pay more than someone who kinda likes, wouldn't mind a couple of these little bits of resin/metal. I mean that sometimes there is a difference between cost and value, you know?

Anyway, just my opinion.

I'll be pretty upfront, the $ cost isn't the only thing to consider. There's also the 12 month (probably closer to 18-24 month, given that a "year plus" of preparation looks like this) wait for all of these to be produced to take into consideration. There's also whether we consider paying a year (or potentially much longer) upfront is worth the savings promised.

Would one of the Heralds mind asking the RH crew for some firmer details on the Shipping schedule and how it's planned to work? I realise there's a lot of figures yet to be unlocked that need to be factored in, but they need to start giving us info on this before the end date gets too close.

 Azazelx wrote:
I'll be pretty upfront, the $ cost isn't the only thing to consider. There's also the 12 month (probably closer to 18-24 month, given that a "year plus" of preparation looks like this) wait for all of these to be produced to take into consideration. There's also whether we consider paying a year (or potentially much longer) upfront is worth the savings promised.

This is true also.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lots of factors to consider when the time comes, not just $cost, as you say.

 Minx wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
The "discount" on the pledges is profoundly misleading, bordering on violating some real ethical rules.

The thing is everything is very transparent unlike a lot of other kickstarters (if we neglect math errors and a price correction on some troops boxes). The numbers were there from day one and everyone could calculate his individual savings. I wouldn't classify that as unethical at all (rather the opposite).

Needless to say I disagree (although it is amusing to see a claim of transparency immediately gainsayed by a requirement that errors in math and pricing be ignored, hehe). It is important also to be able to discern the difference between the campaign as a whole and the individual statements within it. Yesterday's "HOW GOOD A DEAL IS THE TGG KICKSTARTER?" purports to provide exact discount amounts for pledge levels that are highly variable, and presents the best case scenario rather then a range.

While one with an understanding of the complete project may see that the claims are not in line with reality, the questions begin with whether the statements in that update are "a representation, omission or practice that is likely to mislead the consumer".

First, the pricing chart;


Quite simply put, as everyone seems to recognize, the "Retail Value" number given in that chart are only true with a very specific pattern of buying, and in fact the value fluctuates wildly.

Let's take just a small example (as I have to be afk very soon);

First Class Box; $40, Retail value $80, Pick $40 worth of TGG Miniatures and also receive the TGG Digital Art Book.

Okay, so you pick two Heavy Trooper boxes and you also have the TGG Digital Art Book. That's worth... uh, $50 + the art book (which they value at $14), so let's say "retail value" of $64.

Sooo.... yeah. Of course, as we've seen, the values on their chart are only true with very specific load-outs, and if you give specific values to the items that are added on (including, interestingly, assigning a retail value of $18 to the Kickstarter Exclusive Miniature... which seems a fairly blatant contradiction in terms...).

If they are trying to be absolute (rather then misleading) why are their statements of value so absolute?

How good a deal is the TGG Kickstarter?
We're just done updating the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy front page.
We hope that things will be easier to understand this way.
If you have any comments or suggestions (or kudos!), please share them with us in the comments section.

The key point to note is the level of discount built in each pledge, BEFORE the Freebies and Free Upgrades are even applied. You will note that most of the pledges are discounted over 35%! See image here.

Pledge - Est. Retail Value - (How much is available to spend on minis)
Rookie $10 - Est. retail: $14 - ($0)
Private $15 - Est. retail: $30 - ($15)
First Class Box $40 - Est. retail: $80 - ($40)
Painter Box $95 - Est. retail: $164 - ($80)
Cadet Box $95 - Est. retail: $151 - ($80)
Lieutenant Box $165 - Est. retail: $253 - ($150)
Commander Box $245 - Est. retail: $389 - ($240)
Captain Box $365 - Est. retail: $584 - ($370)
Major Box $495 - Est. retail: $789 - ($510)
Colonel Box $745 - Est. retail: $1 205 - ($790)
General Box $995 - Est. retail: $1 609 - ($1 070)

Again, this is BEFORE the FREEBIES...

Where are they being absolute? It says estimated, it's a guide nothing more. I think you're just looking for holes to poke at here.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Okay, so you pick two Heavy Trooper boxes and you also have the TGG Digital Art Book. That's worth... uh, $50 + the art book (which they value at $14), so let's say "retail value" of $64.

The Heavy trooper boxes are about the worst ‘deal’ and eliminates all 'savings' by pledging for them.

Herald’s, since RH want to make everything mix and match, can we have a suggestion made to dump the ‘digital art book’ and reallocated that 14$ back into the mix? That the ‘free’ art book has an attached value as part of the pledge packages is a tad surprising to me. Since we are doing all al a cart pledge levels now, I’d like to option to opt out of it.

The pricing of pledges and structure has now been through several iterations. Starting with a very big change up forced by KS itself pre campaign. I'd wager the RRP is based on the pre swap allotments. Because then you were very limited in possible selection.

A lot of this is like running a sentence through Google translate a couple times then argueing over comma placement.

 Azazelx wrote:
I'll be pretty upfront, the $ cost isn't the only thing to consider. There's also the 12 month (probably closer to 18-24 month, given that a "year plus" of preparation looks like this) wait for all of these to be produced to take into consideration. There's also whether we consider paying a year (or potentially much longer) upfront is worth the savings promised.

Would one of the Heralds mind asking the RH crew for some firmer details on the Shipping schedule and how it's planned to work? I realise there's a lot of figures yet to be unlocked that need to be factored in, but they need to start giving us info on this before the end date gets too close.

True, but it's not like I have a hankering to give it to GW in the meantime...

Another way to see it is pre-emptive spending that protects one's wallet from depredations on GW's part.

I'm extremely curious to see what will happen in the last few hours. Edge of your seat kinda thing. It's a good thing I'll be off that morning to follow the play by play.

Vhalan wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Okay, so you pick two Heavy Trooper boxes and you also have the TGG Digital Art Book. That's worth... uh, $50 + the art book (which they value at $14), so let's say "retail value" of $64.

The Heavy trooper boxes are about the worst ‘deal’ and eliminates all 'savings' by pledging for them.

Herald’s, since RH want to make everything mix and match, can we have a suggestion made to dump the ‘digital art book’ and reallocated that 14$ back into the mix? That the ‘free’ art book has an attached value as part of the pledge packages is a tad surprising to me. Since we are doing all al a cart pledge levels now, I’d like to option to opt out of it.

Personally, I'd also like to opt out of the KS exclusive model in favor of a different $15 character or squad. At least for me, as long as the KSnipers get unlocked, I have everything I need in the LT set for my plans to use the models.

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Personally, I'd also like to opt out of the KS exclusive model in favor of a different $15 character or squad.

It does make more sense to completely remove the mandatory pics and make it 100% value selections. Course they would have to update the graphics one more time with more 'New Math'. That could be bad as suddenly the Art book isnt 'worth' 14$ anymore and the KS exclusive mini becomes a 10$ selection

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Needless to say I disagree (although it is amusing to see a claim of transparency immediately gainsayed by a requirement that errors in math and pricing be ignored
...
and if you give specific values to the items that are added on (including, interestingly, assigning a retail value of $18 to the Kickstarter Exclusive Miniature... which seems a fairly blatant contradiction in terms...).

All the numbers are there for everyone to see and add up. If that is not transparent what is? And obviously if they made a mistake while summarizing those numbers that needs to be corrected but in no way does it remove the transparency.

Why would you not include the retail value of parts of your delivery if you try to sum up its total value? The kickstarter exclusive is not a freebie and it never was.

 Minx wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Needless to say I disagree (although it is amusing to see a claim of transparency immediately gainsayed by a requirement that errors in math and pricing be ignored
...
and if you give specific values to the items that are added on (including, interestingly, assigning a retail value of $18 to the Kickstarter Exclusive Miniature... which seems a fairly blatant contradiction in terms...).

All the numbers are there for everyone to see and add up. If that is not transparent what is? And obviously if they made a mistake while summarizing those numbers that needs to be corrected but in no way does it remove the transparency.

Why would you not include the retail value of parts of your delivery if you try to sum up its total value? The kickstarter exclusive is not a freebie and it never was.

Out of curiosity, how does one establish a retail value for an item that is exclusive to a non-retail venue? Here is an idea, why not make the value even better by setting a value of $50 for the KS exclusive figure?

That seems as transparent as anything else they did there.

And again, there is a difference between a statement being deceptive and the entire campaign being so. That "the numbers are all there" is not an excuse for making statements of claims that are clearly misleading.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Minx wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Needless to say I disagree (although it is amusing to see a claim of transparency immediately gainsayed by a requirement that errors in math and pricing be ignored
...
and if you give specific values to the items that are added on (including, interestingly, assigning a retail value of $18 to the Kickstarter Exclusive Miniature... which seems a fairly blatant contradiction in terms...).

All the numbers are there for everyone to see and add up. If that is not transparent what is? And obviously if they made a mistake while summarizing those numbers that needs to be corrected but in no way does it remove the transparency.

Why would you not include the retail value of parts of your delivery if you try to sum up its total value? The kickstarter exclusive is not a freebie and it never was.

Out of curiosity, how does one establish a retail value for an item that is exclusive to a non-retail venue? Here is an idea, why not make the value even better by setting a value of $50 for the KS exclusive figure?.

All the heros on 15$KS price have the same retail value: 18$.