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For me, their updates are still far too sporadic and lacking in real content. It took them far too long to get the last update published after we crossed the $430k mark. Even if they were hoping to get the extra figures delivered, given how long it took for them to get photos up of those received on Friday I doubt they'd have actually got the intended update out of the door.

Whilst the update does show us the extra figure they've unlocked, and confirm the other three are also unlocked, it doesn't answer a number of the questions that the previous update raised. Such as the freebie SGs. There's also other questions that have been raised here / in general comments / in response to updates that they could have addressed.

They've done 5 updates in 3 days, how is that sporadic?

 fullheadofhair wrote:
You know the old saying about you only die when you paint all your mini's? Having been waiting for RH mini's right from the beginning I think the motto needs changing to "you only die when you actually recieve all your KS minis".

I just cannot see them getting all this done and mailed in anywhere near their deadline.

Reaper who have an excellent organization ended up being 4 months late (what am I going to do with those when they arrive in 3 days time!!!!) and I just cannot see RH being anywhere near as talented as Reaper in organizing things.

Reaper were subject to a lot of logistical issues (they had to buy new warehousing space for the stuff) and got 17,774 backers, many of whom are receiving upwards of 200 miniatures each. They were also stuck waiting on the miniatures to come from a Chinese 3rd party (hence the delays were mostly with shipping).

Raging Heroes are going to be dealing with a much smaller scale campaign; maybe a few thousand backers getting maybe dozens of miniatures that are still being sent to external casting I believe, but I think it's also locally (less shipping/customs issues). Whilst RH aren't known for being prompt, I don't think that Reaper suffering a 4 month delay will necessarily mean much for RH, who are also trying to do their best to get minis to backers quickly with the waves and Drops.

 Hulksmash wrote:

That and the fact that objective people that aren't in love with the product or producers can see they had issues from the get go including trying to play games during the intial spike. The fact that the first three individual models were 20k each and now we're getting them unlocked for free shows it pretty clearly too. Add in that looking at their organization from the same stand point could lead you to the conclusion that their estimated time to completion and production is a pipe dream (which I'll be happily surprised if it comes true).

I don't think it's playing games; the aim of stretch goals is to try and encourage additional pledging and to keep the project interesting. And it generally seems to work; campaigns (like Gates Of Antares) that ask for what they were expecting up front with no stretch goals tend to faulter, whereas campaigns that start with a low figure and use stretch goals to bring it up tend to do better.

They've always been fairly clear that the stuff mentioned will be unlocked one way or another, but had they shown it all on launch there'd have been nothing to talk about for the last 2 weeks.

 shamikebab wrote:
They've done 5 updates in 3 days, how is that sporadic?

Some people just can't be pleased, I guess.

 Breotan wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
They've done 5 updates in 3 days, how is that sporadic?

Some people just can't be pleased, I guess.

It's not about the number of updates it's about the timing of them. They posted update 26 at 06:48 French time and then we didn't see anything again until 01:08 this morning. That's despite crossing the $430k threshold that they'd set and a number of questions being raised by the previous update. The timing of the updates is also going to be subjective, based on the time zone that you're in. Being in the UK makes the timing of the updates much more noticeable, there's only been 3 updates in 3 days here.

I think what several of us are somewhat getting at is if they'd stuck to smaller stretch unlocks - as they had initially, such as $5k or $10k, - with several lined up in advance, the campaign would feel much more like they were setting them up and we were knocking them over - so there would have been much more of a feeling of constant forward momentum, rather than the "oh gak, we better unlock these for free before people pull their pledges!" feeling that we have now.

prankster wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
They've done 5 updates in 3 days, how is that sporadic?

Some people just can't be pleased, I guess.

It's not about the number of updates it's about the timing of them. They posted update 26 at 06:48 French time and then we didn't see anything again until 01:08 this morning. That's despite crossing the $430k threshold that they'd set and a number of questions being raised by the previous update. The timing of the updates is also going to be subjective, based on the time zone that you're in. Being in the UK makes the timing of the updates much more noticeable, there's only been 3 updates in 3 days here.

Well we're on the 22nd day of the campaign and we've had 27 updates. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I can live without updates, I mean, I have a dog and some friends.

IMHO the important thing is that before the end of the KS they will somehow unolck everything (also the resin stuff, I hope), that they keep their timing for the shipping and that the quality for all the models will be (as usal for this company) great. For the important things I just naively trust them (and cross fingers).

Sergio Tulkas wrote:
I can live without updates, I mean, I have a dog and some friends.

IMHO the important thing is that before the end of the KS they will somehow unolck everything (also the resin stuff, I hope), that they keep their timing for the shipping and that the quality for all the models will be (as usal for this company) great. For the important things I just naively trust them (and cross fingers).

They've already pretty much told us that they're going to unlock everything one way or another. I wouldn't worry too much.

A lot of people seem to be worried that not everything will be unlocked but it seems pretty clear what has happened here from where I am sitting. We blew through all the pre planned stretch goals in 1 day so they had to push them back a little to keep things interesting. Having everything unlocked day 1 and no updates would be worse than what we have now.

I'm positive they have every intention of making sure everything is unlocked, they have just stumbled on the execution there.

 Azazelx wrote:
I think what several of us are somewhat getting at is if they'd stuck to smaller stretch unlocks - as they had initially, such as $5k or $10k, - with several lined up in advance, the campaign would feel much more like they were setting them up and we were knocking them over - so there would have been much more of a feeling of constant forward momentum, rather than the "oh gak, we better unlock these for free before people pull their pledges!" feeling that we have now.

This, a million times this.

 Kroothawk wrote:
BTW, in one of the unnoticed updates, Raging Heroes assured us, that they have no doubts that all planned miniatures will be unlocked at the end of the kickstarter.

Jimsolo wrote:They've already pretty much told us that they're going to unlock everything one way or another. I wouldn't worry too much.

That's what I said 20 days ago, but people didn't believe me.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
BTW, in one of the unnoticed updates, Raging Heroes assured us, that they have no doubts that all planned miniatures will be unlocked at the end of the kickstarter.

Jimsolo wrote:They've already pretty much told us that they're going to unlock everything one way or another. I wouldn't worry too much.

That's what I said 20 days ago, but people didn't believe me.

I believe in you, Kroothawk! I belieeeeeeve!

On the real, though, we've both been saying that from the get-go. I was a little concerned at first, but once I realized they were willing to treat the stretch goals as fluid, I chilled out pretty quick.

Too bad we most likely won't be seeing anything else though - given that we're probably at a 'fixed' unlock rate?

Not a big deal however, as what they've got planned looks great!

Sad though, as I was looking forward to seeing the sure to be announced mercenary Lieutenant F. Kay Hawke, Assassin/Standard Bearer, along with her mascot psyber-weasel The Solitaire.

 Alpharius wrote:
Too bad we most likely won't be seeing anything else though - given that we're probably at a 'fixed' unlock rate?

Most likely you are probably wrong. But we'll see. =)

Perhaps they will inform us in one of the next updates. I am awaiting their comparison shots of different prints in the next update though.

 Alpharius wrote:
Too bad we most likely won't be seeing anything else though - given that we're probably at a 'fixed' unlock rate?)

Guess, we have to be satisfied with 150 individually sculpted miniatures then, many of them multipose.

Kroothawk wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Too bad we most likely won't be seeing anything else though - given that we're probably at a 'fixed' unlock rate?)

Guess, we have to be satisfied with 150 individually sculpted miniatures then, many of them multipose.

Selective out of context quoting... for the loss.

Alpharius wrote:Too bad we most likely won't be seeing anything else though - given that we're probably at a 'fixed' unlock rate?

Not a big deal however, as what they've got planned looks great!

I keep wondering to myself why I keep opening this thread. It's wall to wall negativity. Then I see ol' snarky Kroothawk, and I know why. Thanks for being the one bright spark in this gloomy quagmire of a thread.

 shamikebab wrote:
They've done 5 updates in 3 days, how is that sporadic?

Because they didn't do 6 updates?

Who the hell knows. If there's something to whine about when a Kickstarter is involved, the fine folks here will find it.

Whining about the Kickstarter, whining about people whining about the Kickstarter, and whining about people whining about people whining about the Kickstarter. I don't know that it often goes more than three levels deep though. At that point it would probably more efficient to just write a bot to post to KS threads.

Lies and slander. I came to praise Kroothawk.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Lies and slander. I came to praise Kroothawk.

About 11 days too early no less!

Anyway, do we know roughly when the silhouettes will be removed, and we'll get to see all the various artwork?

I'm really looking forward to the Jailbird and Kurganova bikes, and the Kurganova and IE Mechs!

Just said 'during the week' I think. Really looking forward to seeing those ie snipers.

Yeah I can't wait to see the bikes and mechs (although my wallet might disagree)

 alanmckenzie wrote:
Just said 'during the week' I think. Really looking forward to seeing those ie snipers.

Good call - I forgot about the snipers too!

Really looking forward to them as well...

I'm curious about the bikes, but I wasn't a huge fan of the IE one so I'm not sure if I'll like the style of the others either. Similar boat with the mechs, but hey, the more miniatures I'm not enamored with the less I spend. The snipers I am absolutely looking forward to though. Blondie needs some friends to hang out with. Add in a little Dream House for the girls and I'll be all set to play Barbies.

..Er. Barbarians. Yeah! D12 4 Life!

 BrookM wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I think what several of us are somewhat getting at is if they'd stuck to smaller stretch unlocks - as they had initially, such as $5k or $10k, - with several lined up in advance, the campaign would feel much more like they were setting them up and we were knocking them over - so there would have been much more of a feeling of constant forward momentum, rather than the "oh gak, we better unlock these for free before people pull their pledges!" feeling that we have now.

This, a million times this.

Felt the need to third this.

One of the heralds posted the following comment:

Andrew Hayford (Raging Herald) wrote:The motorheads out there should be pleased with the next unlock! Jailbirds are getting some wheels!

Since we're quoting ourselves from a fortnight ago, something of mine;

 Buzzsaw wrote:
It's all an issue of expectations: is this a niche project, or a blockbuster?

Consider it like the box office of Star Trek: Into Darkness, where opening weekend it made $70 million, and this was considered disappointing. A disappointment because it failed to be as big a hit as the first Star Trek (reboot).

In my discursions in the previous days one will note my repeated mentions of the need for mega funding: but that need remains based in the $20-35k stretch goal unlocks and ~40 figures/units yet to reveal.

While we don't have no idea, we don't have the exact figure for what is the real minimum: the original SGs were $3-5k, which jibes with other campaigns that are doing metal figures puts them at.

Simply put, at $20k+ per SG, they need to make money by the barrel load every day to be a "success". At $3-5k they are already there.

It's fascinating really, the degree to which this project is either on easy street or in terrible trouble is entirely dependent on factors the creators control. Fascinating.

More-so then anything else, this identity crisis is behind the problems afflicting this campaign at the moment: is the campaign like Dreamforge's, where every scrap of funding is being invested into molds, design and tooling, or is it like Deadzone, where the creator's interest in establishing a customer base leads them to design a campaign with the widest maximum appeal with funds diverted from new product development to add value to the pledges?

It is becoming clear (although by no means indisputable) that TGG was originally designed to be of the first order: a campaign like Tre Manor's most recent, where everything would be allocated to developing, sculpting and tooling. Their initial stretch goal interval is entirely consistent with other campaigns that have put out individual and group sculpts, such as Bombshell Babes or JunkRobot's two or Tre's two.

Then the first day happened.

We can't know exactly how much RH's planned costs were, or what their overall business plan was intended to be, but one thing is clear: the sudden influx of cash caused them to throw their original plan out and try desperately to stretch their existing plan out. Which they did in the most hamhanded way possible.

Let's for a moment take up Kroot's talismanic "150 individual sculpts": assuming, arguendo, about $3k in real costs to design, tool and produce working numbers of a given sculpt, we see that the entire line would be done at $450k or so. Which means that basically everything is already paid for.

So, having achieved in a day the large majority of what they planned to do in a month, what to do?

Ala cart campaigns are typically rather scanty in terms of added value, since they tend to pay-as-they-go in terms of unlocking. Given that they have a lower level of added value, they do tend to have a higher level of discount.

Blockbuster campaigns tend to be organized around a singe "sweet spot" pledge level, which is constantly added to in terms of value.

TGG has, over time, evolved into a hybrid of the two paradigms it seems: it doesn't have the consistent discounts on everything that characterizes most ala cart campaigns, but it has a much more robust system to establish a sweet spot with distinct value added. That sweet spot, on the other hand, is a bit less robust then many others.

The question is, of course, does this hybrid combine the best, or the worst, aspects of the two campaign paradigms: ala cart campaigns may not make the money that blockbusters do, but they also are far less likely to overextend themselves, since they normally tie their funding level very closely to what is available. Blockbusters may make substantially more money, but they can easily outstrip the company's ability to meet their own goals. But of course, Blockbusters also expand the brand, because they make the deal such that people who ordinarily would not buy into an ala cart can't resist the sweet deal.

Ah, such delightful diversity of data. Fascinating.

I never noticed before today... are you Mr. Spock?

Quite interesting point of view Buzzsaw.

It kind of explains a few things.