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 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So I love SOB but am terrified of this thread. Should I be excited for this or not?

As much as the delays will make me weep, RH is going to take a SIGNIFICANT chunk of money of me with that KS.

I figure I'll let the products hit retail, and use my immediate cash on things that are available immediately, and not likely to be delayed by 12-36 months.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlexHolker wrote:
I got in on TGG at $15 just to sample their product. The results have been damning, and there's not a chance in hell I'll back any similar campaign in the future.

The only way they're getting any more of my money is if they offer the basic infantry in high impact polystyrene. $4 for a 5 point model is just stupid.

You should probably give up on that particular mantra, Alex. I've got a lot of issues with RH, but getting upset over a reasonably priced and detailed figure for the money from a third party because doesn't fit well with what you think it should be based on GW's arbitrary ruleset point costs is nothing but stupid. These are not the models you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.

 Azazelx wrote:
You should probably give up on that particular mantra, Alex. I've got a lot of issues with RH, but getting upset over a reasonably priced and detailed figure for the money from a third party because doesn't fit well with what you think it should be based on GW's arbitrary ruleset point costs is nothing but stupid. These are not the models you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.

They're planning on making some not!Sisters of Battle to go with their not!Witch Elves, not!Ratlings and not!Ogryn. If you think they aren't intended for GW's arbitrary ruleset, I've got a bridge to sell you.

They are planning on a system of their own, though at this rate..

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
You should probably give up on that particular mantra, Alex. I've got a lot of issues with RH, but getting upset over a reasonably priced and detailed figure for the money from a third party because doesn't fit well with what you think it should be based on GW's arbitrary ruleset point costs is nothing but stupid. These are not the models you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.

They're planning on making some not!Sisters of Battle to go with their not!Witch Elves, not!Ratlings and not!Ogryn. If you think they aren't intended for GW's arbitrary ruleset, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Oh of course they're essentially proxies. That doesn't in any way invalidate my point though. You might be better off with green army men given your attitude to their prices and expecting them to match GW codex points costs. You may as well go troll Vic's thread and Mad Robot's threads with the same unrealistic complaint. For that matter, the Germanic TGG look like they might work better as stormtroopers so they should be more expensive. And their not-sisters should cost double what the TGG do, even if they are the same size, and so on and on. Kromlech and Maxmini and so forth need to reprice their orcs to be 1/3 of the cost of their marines despite being larger... and those not-gretchen should be practically free!

 Azazelx wrote:

Spoiler:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So I love SOB but am terrified of this thread. Should I be excited for this or not?

As much as the delays will make me weep, RH is going to take a SIGNIFICANT chunk of money of me with that KS.

I figure I'll let the products hit retail, and use my immediate cash on things that are available immediately, and not likely to be delayed by 12-36 months.

I totally understand (and approve, in theory) the idea that it's better for creators to take their time and get things right, rather then do the Mantic Deadline Rush (TM). But there is also something to be said for the creators being humble (as I think, say, Mark Mondragon and Adam Poots are) and realizing that the more a product is delayed, the greater its effective cost.

Seriously, at a certain point in the delay cycle we aren't just not getting a deal, we're actually paying more then retail.

Like folks said above, I'd really like to be excited about this project again, but damn if RH doesn't make it hard...

We're not the only ones paying more than retail... the company's PR is going to lose a lot of goodwill, eventually. Although to be honest, the KS comments have all been very "white-knighty" lately.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
You should probably give up on that particular mantra, Alex. I've got a lot of issues with RH, but getting upset over a reasonably priced and detailed figure for the money from a third party because doesn't fit well with what you think it should be based on GW's arbitrary ruleset point costs is nothing but stupid. These are not the models you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.

They're planning on making some not!Sisters of Battle to go with their not!Witch Elves, not!Ratlings and not!Ogryn. If you think they aren't intended for GW's arbitrary ruleset, I've got a bridge to sell you.

I don't think it's unreasonable to compare the cost of a model with the number you're going to need to buy to field.

I don't think it's unreasonable for Alex to expect basic Guardsmen (or their counts-as models) to have less of an impact on his wallet than models he would need to buy less than half the number of in order to field an army.

I'm not entirely sure that it's always going to be possible, and I don't think anyone expects there to be an exact dollar-to-points ratio, but the idea that Boyz should be cheaper than, say, Grey Knights Terminators seems like a very understandable one.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
We're not the only ones paying more than retail... the company's PR is going to lose a lot of goodwill, eventually. Although to be honest, the KS comments have all been very "white-knighty" lately.

The thing is, that isn't necessarily a good sign: you will also notice that the comments are coming pretty darned slow. I said this a while back (maybe about Relic Knights?), that a Kickstarter Campaign is an opportunity to turn interested people first into customers, and then into fans.

I really don't think that RH has managed that transition (much less fans into ambassadors for the brand) particularly well. What has happened instead is that people that were involved, were motivated to post, are simply falling off. I know that I have dramatically decreased how often I check this thread (and almost never check the KS comments) because... I just don't care anymore.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
We're not the only ones paying more than retail... the company's PR is going to lose a lot of goodwill, eventually. Although to be honest, the KS comments have all been very "white-knighty" lately.

The thing is, that isn't necessarily a good sign: you will also notice that the comments are coming pretty darned slow. I said this a while back (maybe about Relic Knights?), that a Kickstarter Campaign is an opportunity to turn interested people first into customers, and then into fans.

I really don't think that RH has managed that transition (much less fans into ambassadors for the brand) particularly well. What has happened instead is that people that were involved, were motivated to post, are simply falling off. I know that I have dramatically decreased how often I check this thread (and almost never check the KS comments) because... I just don't care anymore.

Even I don't check the KS comments anymore.

It still baffles me how little they (RH) seem to care what others talk about. I mean... yes, they have improved a bit on the quality of their updates... but that's just not enough. If a one-man KS can release weekly QUALITY updates, than there is no excuse for others not to do so.

Or look at Mierce. Two Kickstarters and ABSOLUTELY REGULAR weekly updates for both of them. Awesome updates every week in fact. Pictures, heads-up on mistakes they made (like sending a wrong picture to their sculptor.), fixes for their mistakes, ETAs on all of their stuff. WIP galore...

The optimist in me continues to hope that what they fail to do in the communication department they will make up for in the quality department when I finally get my finished minis. Fingers crossed.

This is on the bucket list.

If the amount of failure they have in the communications department equaled win on the quality department, the minis would be from out of this world.

They will be good, but not that good.

I have the three sisters and they're fine minis. I'm actually surprised that the limited edition boxed set is still on sale, despite being such a hot item.

I do to, and as you said, they are fine minis. But not out of this world, really. I'd put them under Confrontation levels of awesomess (which is my gold standard). The thing is, you can see from the updates that the minis are going to be comparable to those, and it's good, because uniformity across a range is desirable. But to wait *that* long for it? It's only six months to them being a year late for Wave 1. I can almost see it happening.

why arent any of the female squads or 'space nuns' for sale dagnabbit.

From Facebook

A glimpse at the TGG artbook. More details: http://kck.st/19nEFrs



I don't remember an art book does anybody else?

I remember an art book; I'm pretty sure I remember them previewing this particular page, because I recall pointing out how it does a complete dis-service to the actual art. Seriously, if the point is to highlight the art... why is it off center and melding into the far-too-dark background?

It's so poorly done I wonder if it isn't meant as a joke.

I care less that it's poorly done than I do about the fact they're fannying about with art books when they can't even manage to give us regular WiP updates on the models, let alone actually roll out the pledge manager or complete and ship some actual physical product.

Raging Heroes you have my endorsement to commercially topple GW

 Yodhrin wrote:
I care less that it's poorly done than I do about the fact they're fannying about with art books when they can't even manage to give us regular WiP updates on the models, let alone actually roll out the pledge manager or complete and ship some actual physical product.

That's the stupefying thing: doing it right (just putting the art on the page with minimal addition, ala the Infinity art book) is actually less work then taking the time to smear Gothic excrement on the page the way they have done there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cross-posting from the comments;

Dustin, you are wrong only in that it's not about what they WANT, but what they PROMISED. Specifically, as people began to complain about a lack of more tangible miniatures being previewed during the campaign they stated that "Just want you to know that your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised. As mentioned earlier, we never want our pledgers and future customers unhappy with our minis." (see http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3090/530736.page#5815187)
It's not altruism that is delaying the pledge manager, it's an EXPLICIT promise that "finalised[sic]" sculpts will be shown before people are locked-in on the pledge manager.
It's a trap, of their own making: they were petrified of showing renders and prints during the campaign, so to mollify the crowd they promised that no sales would be final until the sculpts were finalized. This has, entirely predictably, meant a bottleneck; they cannot open the pledge manager until they have done all the work, which means that they can't gather numbers for production reliably even though some of the miniatures have been done for rapidly approaching a year now.

And in looking up the reference above, I came across a post that typifies this point;

 Alpharius wrote:
Yes, I too can confirm that!

I cannot wait for July 7th and crossing the finish line here!

July 7th, 2013 80% of the miniatures were 80% done.

Today? Who knows? Perhaps we will see some metal casts of the heroines that were completed nearly a year ago and ready for production. Perhaps not.

It will be interesting to see how well the next KS will do and how much has been learned from the current one.

 BrookM wrote:
I have the three sisters and they're fine minis. I'm actually surprised that the limited edition boxed set is still on sale, despite being such a hot item.

Guess it wasn't so hot in the end, eh? (and yes, I have it, too). As Mathieu said, they're nice, but not the finest miniatures in the world.

Gomericus wrote:
why arent any of the female squads or 'space nuns' for sale dagnabbit.

Because they don't exist yet. The nuns are really far from existing. They're not even up to 80% completed yet - which is really the starting point for this sort of thing.

 Iron Wings wrote:
Raging Heroes you have my endorsement to commercially topple GW

The only company they're in danger of putting out of business is Raging Heroes.

 BrookM wrote:
It will be interesting to see how well the next KS will do and how much has been learned from the current one.

Hm. Good point. In that case, I think I'd prefer if they do actually start the next campaign before finishing this one. Though this is clearly a company that should stay away from crowdfunding and just release models as they're completed on a regular basis.

Maybe they see the creative part of the process as the 80%.

Inspiration can be hard to come by. The rest can be handled by low-wage employees in India. Or China.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to think about it though, how many people looked at the campaign and did not pledge, thinking they could wait a mere three months to get the troops and then... completely forgetting about it "a toute fin pratique." Sure, they'll remember once they see someone playing with them, a couple of years down the line, in a FLGS.

I'm not touching their next KS with a hundred foot pole. My money means nothing to them. (Yes, by being treated as such, this is how I feel) If they really want it, they'll need to bring something to market.

Mathieu, it's not just your money that means nothing to them...

The rest was assumed, smartass.

I'll back another kickstarter , as I've said before I'm happy when my minis get here , no rush for me as i have a painting backlog that is a mile long.

Personally the KS isn't the joke in this thread it's the people who are bitterly disappointed yet keep checking for info every few days. Join the once a month club and feel contentment fill your life. - trust me it's worth it, check in french timeline and you will feel better

Trust me, I work smack in the middle of a huge French diaspora... they are as impatient as the next person. At least when it comes to serving them what they want, right now, as cheaply as possible, sankyouverymuch. Just like everyone else. I've taken the occasional jab at the French work ethic, but let's face it, they want to play with the big boys, they have to deliver eventually.

I'd join the once a month club, if only we'd get *tangible* info once a month. (The Happy New Year update wasn't quite useful, let's be honest)

I swear, if Dreamforge delivers its Black Widows before this one does...

 Jimsolo wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
You should probably give up on that particular mantra, Alex. I've got a lot of issues with RH, but getting upset over a reasonably priced and detailed figure for the money from a third party because doesn't fit well with what you think it should be based on GW's arbitrary ruleset point costs is nothing but stupid. These are not the models you're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.

They're planning on making some not!Sisters of Battle to go with their not!Witch Elves, not!Ratlings and not!Ogryn. If you think they aren't intended for GW's arbitrary ruleset, I've got a bridge to sell you.

I don't think it's unreasonable to compare the cost of a model with the number you're going to need to buy to field.
I don't think it's unreasonable for Alex to expect basic Guardsmen (or their counts-as models) to have less of an impact on his wallet than models he would need to buy less than half the number of in order to field an army.
I'm not entirely sure that it's always going to be possible, and I don't think anyone expects there to be an exact dollar-to-points ratio, but the idea that Boyz should be cheaper than, say, Grey Knights Terminators seems like a very understandable one.

Nah, that's years of GW-style brainwashing at work. Unfortunately, it's permeated most of the industry and hobby and leads to bs like the latest that GW is coming out with in terms of Eldar Dire Avenger prices, Witch Elves, Dwarf Hammerers/Longbeards and so forth.

Using Alex's logic, this kit's price - 10 Guardsmen in HIPS (AU$48)
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod2070014

means these - 10 Tactical Marines in HIPS (AU$65) should actually be about AU$150. The Marines are also bulkier, a newer kit and come with more bits and a heavy weapon.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod2160142a

US$4 a figure is actually a pretty reasonable price for (non-HIPS) models with a high level of detail. It also makes them slightly cheaper than the AU$price of IG - though Alex likes to find highly-discounted UK prices that aren't actually available to him for comparison.

Still, we don't see Alex visiting the Vic Minis thread or the Mad Robot thread and demanding they halve their prices for not-imperial Guard. gak, Steve from Mad Robot has the gall to have put up a pre-order for a torso with grenade launcher for $3. Just a Torso! For three bucks! How dare he? Vic sells squads of 10 for $50! The Gall!



Now please stop making me defend RH. It's making me feel dirty.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Maybe they see the creative part of the process as the 80%.

Inspiration can be hard to come by. The rest can be handled by low-wage employees in India. Or China.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to think about it though, how many people looked at the campaign and did not pledge, thinking they could wait a mere three months to get the troops and then... completely forgetting about it "a toute fin pratique." Sure, they'll remember once they see someone playing with them, a couple of years down the line, in a FLGS.

I'm not touching their next KS with a hundred foot pole. My money means nothing to them. (Yes, by being treated as such, this is how I feel) If they really want it, they'll need to bring something to market.

Not trying to be contrary, just curious: do you still buy GW product? I only ask because I feel like RH cares WAY more about our opinions and our patronage than GW does. (Really, not trying to start something, just honestly curious. Have you reached the point of frustration where you are only paying out your money to companies that you think are listening to your opinions, or is it that you felt like there was going to be more input with RH and have become disillusioned?)