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I guess THEY still are.

Well, this comes to mind.

BrookM... if we took out the posts where you have those gif... how low would your post count dip, do you reckon?

Oh...lose at least 80% obviously.....

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
BrookM... if we took out the posts where you have those gif... how low would your post count dip, do you reckon?

Gifs and other posts of "nefarious intent" in this thread make up for 80% of my posts in this thread. The rest is still safe and sound in those DCM threads.

My friend pledged on this and was going nuts over the pledge manager. He offered me the chance to jump in for some troopers but the process makes me shudder. :-P

It's nowhere near as scary as some make it out to be. It's just backwards and anything but streamlined and perfect.

Great News! (tm)

I lost my dropship after all.

So they finally punched out, sorry to hear.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
I see nepharaya has gone back to concept art even though they had renders up for the start of the kickstarter. Guess I was right when I suggested they had made an unworkable sculpt. Reading the comments above about refining sculpts until they are manufacturable obviously goes to show their sculptors don't really know how to sculpt with manufacture in mind and they have to compromise their aesthetic to achieve it.

Example of the above problem and the problem of not having renders done before the PM closes:
Looking at the Soul Weavers, the differences between the concept art and the renders are considerable: For Sashenka, the staff is far clunkier and lacks the great shaft detail of the concept. The various cables/hoses have lost all of their detail. The knee guard is too big and lacks detail and the hat is different. There are other differences, but just the ones listed are enough to change the feel of the figure especially the staff. Is it still a cool figure? Yes. Is it as cool as the concept? Not really. Would I have bought a figure closer to the concept? Certainly. Will I buy this figure? Questionable. Multiply this issue times all the figures that we have not seen renders of, much less sculpts, and buying sight unseen becomes a real problem, especially when we were promised renders and sculpts for everything before the PM closed.

So I made some changes, based on renders in particular,

Ivanka Kruganova
Commander Elektra
One Shot Blondie
Karmina Noxx
Arushka
Snipers
General Ilsa Wolfenstein
Nepharya (Necro Priestess)
Werewolves (Zagrath and Sheera)

To this list:

Ivanka Kruganova
Commander Elektra
One Shot Blondie
Karmina Noxx
Volga Potemkine
Snipers
General Ilsa Wolfenstein
Nepharya (Necro Priestess)
Werewolves (Zagrath and Vankaree)

Not many changes, but I dropped a soul weaver for an Army Standard.

My theory is this gives me my snipers and sniper hero, and with the KST freebies I have quite the command squad with Elektra, Volga, Natasha and Karoline, all backed up by two of the Wereshewolves lead by Svetlana. Not a bad little squad all told.

So that leads into the waffling. I'm considering dropping Ivanka for another heroine model, there's some other cool minis in the KST range, and ones I think will be cool could turn out completely differently. I'm also considering those two squads of troops.

Maybe they'll give us the promised renders before the dead-line..

 BrookM wrote:
Maybe they'll give us the promised renders before the dead-line..

Or at least SOME of them.

They're way too incompetent for that. You guys know it.

Well, I bit the bullet, I paid for personal wave shipping because I'm operating under the assumption that a)this should normally mean that I should get my first wave faster than the rest of the plebes and b)I'll be suitably indignant when that fails to materialize and delays are piled onto more delays because the delays caused delays in the delays.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I refrained from any of the super unlocks and later stuff, thinking this means I'll be done by wave 2.

Who wants to bet I'm wrong and I'll regret the decision?

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

Who wants to bet I'm wrong and I'll regret the decision?

Easy money.

Mathieu Raymond wrote:Who wants to bet I'm wrong and I'll regret the decision?

You get out of life what you put in. If you put in negativity, you'll end up disappointed, regardless the reason. Like I said before, I have only ever seen one kickstarter project I got involved with finish on schedule. I'm not concerned. I've got other Raging Heroes models, they've been consistently high quality, and I really just don't understand the apprehension surrounding this. They're not going anywhere, you'll get your models, and you'll be happy with them when you do. So stop sweating the small stuff.

Mate, aside from all of the other bs around this campaign, and all of the bs they've been spewing for the last year and a half, they've stated that they're locking down the pledge manager before showing all of the renders. Which is something they've repeatedly said they would not do. Unless they change their mind, Which they may or may not do.

Saying that you don't get the apprehension is disingenious at best, and telling people to "stop sweating the small stuff" when people have hundreds of dollars on this is insulting. You don't care, you're happy. good for you. Don't tell others how they should feel or what they should "sweat".

 Redbeard wrote:

Mathieu Raymond wrote:Who wants to bet I'm wrong and I'll regret the decision?

You get out of life what you put in. If you put in negativity, you'll end up disappointed, regardless the reason. Like I said before, I have only ever seen one kickstarter project I got involved with finish on schedule. I'm not concerned. I've got other Raging Heroes models, they've been consistently high quality, and I really just don't understand the apprehension surrounding this. They're not going anywhere, you'll get your models, and you'll be happy with them when you do. So stop sweating the small stuff.

Anyone want to know how many of the kickstarters in my sig finished on schedule or are planned to finish on time. Here's a hint, I only need one hand to count.

Not really the point here, though...

My longest one isn't even TGG, its a rpg for kiddies... quickly approaching a year over its due delivery date.

It's absolutely the point. If you're into kickstarter, you know that you're going to have delays. You know that you're going to have periods without updates. You know that plans change, and what was said at one point may actually need to be revised later.

That's because these are all part of the design process, and people using kickstarter to fund their ideas are rarely experienced project managers. Delays and revisions are part of the system, and if you can't understand that, you probably shouldn't be kickstarting things, you should wait and buy finished products.

Yes, I get it, people put a lot of money into this. I think my final order, including some late add-ons during the pledge manager, topped a grand. I put my money out there because I'd previously purchased RH models, and was (and still am) confident in their vision and what their finished product will look like. If you put money out there without that trust, I don't know what to say about your judgement.

Bottom line, they're not acting any different than any other company on kickstarter that I've been involved with, and I've backed no small number. Have some faith and some patience and you'll end up with nice models. This isn't worth giving yourself an ulcer over.

Look, Redbeard has a valid point. In the grand scheme of things, it's little restic (wo)men. Although I opted for metal just because it is a known quantity. I checked most of my metal minis and I don't have that much chipping.

But as a consumer, there is still a choice to be made. If there is a critical mass of people expressing themselves and repeat creators learn from their first go, excellent. If starry-eyed idealists continue doing this with little to no clue about process, and production, and conception and they keep pushing back, but a lower and lower number of backers jump in, the market will speak. With its invisible hand. I guess the market is mute or something.

Anyway, it's just me. I'm not thinking I represent anyone else. Not event he dude who said he'd buy half my pledge. Let me rant, just a bit. It's good for my panties, and there's other stuff happening I can't control.

 Redbeard wrote:
It's absolutely the point. If you're into kickstarter, you know that you're going to have delays. You know that you're going to have periods without updates. You know that plans change, and what was said at one point may actually need to be revised later.

That's because these are all part of the design process, and people using kickstarter to fund their ideas are rarely experienced project managers. Delays and revisions are part of the system, and if you can't understand that, you probably shouldn't be kickstarting things, you should wait and buy finished products.

Yes, I get it, people put a lot of money into this. I think my final order, including some late add-ons during the pledge manager, topped a grand. I put my money out there because I'd previously purchased RH models, and was (and still am) confident in their vision and what their finished product will look like. If you put money out there without that trust, I don't know what to say about your judgement.

Bottom line, they're not acting any different than any other company on kickstarter that I've been involved with, and I've backed no small number. Have some faith and some patience and you'll end up with nice models. This isn't worth giving yourself an ulcer over.

With due respect, you seem to be missing precisely what makes this situation different from other kickstarters: these wounds are entirely self-inflicted. The problem is not delay, the problem is not the pledge manager, the problem is not the endless revisions.

The problem is that in almost every case of making a promise or representation, RH has failed to live up to its own obligations. Moreover, RH has consistently and adamantly resisted the constant calls for the one thing that would eliminate their problems: better communication.

Seriously man, everything could be fixed here with more communication. If you don't believe that, I invite you to examine the Dreamforge thread. Mark announces yet another delay, coming up on almost two years (I think). Where are the headhunters, the twitter weaned Jacobins, the punk rock zombies aching for brains over there?

To interpret the problems that RH is facing now as simply an iteration of the same delays and disorganization that plague every kickstarter is to completely misread the situation. The problem isn't they have some new and unique problems, but that they have responded to the same problems everyone has so very poorly.

Offtopic the first: Buzzsaw, am I going crazy or did you used to be a mod? Ever since the baby, I'm forgetting so much crap I feel like I've got the 'Heimer's.

Offtopic the second: Redbeard, do you own the amigurumi beast in your avatar? And would you ever put it into a Fuzzy Heroes game?

Back on topic: I don't really know what else we can do at this point. I'm not above putting in my two cents if I want something from RH, but I'm not holding my breath on my opinion carrying a great deal of weight. And that's fine. It still carries more weight with them than it does with WotC, or White Wolf, or Games Workshop. I'll take some communication and accountability over none whatsoever.

I think that, in the future, I will remember what happened during this campaign and pledge accordingly for future ones. I'll still probably get down on them, though.

Ok... so they're bad at communicating the delays. So what?

The echo-chamber of over-reaction that is this thread has stunned me almost from the very beginning. I made fun of Raging Heroes at the start because everything they do is always delayed (even the launch of the Kickstarter!), so the idea that we're still here, miniatureless, after all this time shouldn't come as a surprise it should be a given. And that's before we even get into the "All Kickstarters are late" phenomena. Tablescapes? Ain't got 'em all yet. Rivetwars? Still waiting. That Mantic wannabe-Necromunda? Only just got the replacements for the missing items, and still don't have the rest.

I'd be more shocked if Raging Heroes was on time.

Someone should copy/paste azazels rant about echo-chambers, KS delays etc from the SWTS thread into this one. It's almost a repeat of the exact same situation

The SWTS?

Buzzsaw wrote:
The problem is that in almost every case of making a promise or representation, RH has failed to live up to its own obligations. Moreover, RH has consistently and adamantly resisted the constant calls for the one thing that would eliminate their problems: better communication.

I see what you're saying, I just don't agree with you. I'm not on the dreamforge one, so I can't speak to that. But every kickstarter and indiegogo project I've backed has had people asking for more updates. And most of them don't communicate near as well as they should, but again, I think it's part of the nature of the beast.

Kickstarter is a venue for idea people to get the word out and get some financial support without the rigorous project planning that would be required by a traditional bank loan. It does not surprise me, in the least, that idea people doing kickstarter projects don't have the sort of polished customer service experience that modern consumers come to expect from full-fledged businesses. The ones that do communicate well (as you seem to indicate Dreamforge does) are the exception, not the rule.

I have 12 outstanding kickstarter backings (is that the right term?). Of those 12, I would only say two of them communicate well, and they're both projects from more experienced developers - Tablescapes, from Secret Weapon, and Creature Caster, from Jeremy who ran Ultraforge. They stand out, in my mind, because of how well they do communicate their issues. The others, they're all essentially at the same level as each other, and Raging Heroes is notably better than a couple others.

I think the reason people are pounding on RH is not because they're worse than normal, but because they were so successful, and exceeded their expectations by so much, that it's hard for people to remember that prior to this kickstarter, this was a tiny little operation that had all of 20 sculpts to their name. People think, wow, they made so much money, they must be a big operation. And I can't really see it being justified to hire a full time customer support person. Considering all the other things they need to be doing, responding to every question on a comment thread seems like an unrealistic goal. If those Dreamforge guys manage it, good for them, but it's not a standard I expect any kickstarter to live up to.

Jimsolo wrote:
Offtopic the second: Redbeard, do you own the amigurumi beast in your avatar? And would you ever put it into a Fuzzy Heroes game?

I do, my wife loves to make amigurumi's and she made it for me (and a papa nurgle dice bag that eats and regurgitates the dice). I haven't seen fuzzy heroes in about a decade, are they still going?

I really don't think that's the case Redbeard. I think it's more that people are expecting them to keep their word. I haven't been upset by their communication or lack there of, but when they made specific promises about how things would be handled from a customer support perspective, namely how we're going to get our toy soldiers and select them from the pledge manager (full renders, no lock in, etc) I can see where people are getting upset. It's hard to argue against the folks wanting to string RH up verbally when RH tied the noose and built the scaffold.