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chaos0xomega wrote:Am I the only one who has pledged to *so* many kickstarters as to have become completely unphased by being behind schedule? I've seen other Raging Heroes (non-Kickstarter) miniatures in person before and they were great, I have no reason to believe that they are going to deliver us a crappy product after this. Of course, yknow I'd prefer to have my stuff sooner rather than later, but seriously.

Nope, I've posted the same thing several times. It's just funny to watch everyone obsess over it.

 Redbeard wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Am I the only one who has pledged to *so* many kickstarters as to have become completely unphased by being behind schedule? I've seen other Raging Heroes (non-Kickstarter) miniatures in person before and they were great, I have no reason to believe that they are going to deliver us a crappy product after this. Of course, yknow I'd prefer to have my stuff sooner rather than later, but seriously.

Nope, I've posted the same thing several times. It's just funny to watch everyone obsess over it.

I'm with you.....I have no issues with the delays and how RH has handled this...but this forum is hella funny to read

 BrookM wrote:
Okay, three minutes in and already they lost me.

I have to admit it's a bit crazy, even by anime standard. ^^'

To go back on topic, are the heroines listed as wave 1 metal only, or metal and spin-cast ? I vaguely remember something about wave 1 spin-cast heroines being done now, while all the others were at the end of the production queue.

Their walls of text are a bit hard to navigate when searching for a specific information.

Right.

But then this is pretty much spot on too:

 BrookM wrote:
Thing is though, just because it is a KS should not automatically mean that it is okay to be behind on schedule or that we as backers should just deal with it.

I think it is pretty fair to be annoyed when a company makes a big deal about how everything has been carefully planned and is mostly done already at the outset, and then turns out to be really, really late. RH made assurance about the lack of delay due to being almost finished anyway part of the value package they were offering, and it turned out to be way over sold at best. (I would go so far as to say it was 80% lie, but I am cynical.)

It would have been one thing if they had said "Hey, we have done out best to get things rolling ahead of time so there won't be delays, but we can't promise shipping within the year." Or if they had just kept their mouths shut. Instead they claimed they were 80% done (though what exactly they meant was nebulous) and things would be out the door quickly.

Look, just because it's "fair" to be annoyed, doesn't mean you shouldn't have expected it. It's Kickstarter - what's "fair" doesn't apply. Nearly all kickstarters are run by people inexperienced with some aspect of what they're doing, whether it be scale, or outsourcing production, or customer service / PR. Everything you guys keep saying is right - they should have done some things different, they shouldn't have said certain things. Whatever, par for the course. It's Kickstarter.

Adjust your expectations and you'll be a happier person. Or keep shaking your fists at the skies and raise your blood pressure, it matters not to me.

All true.

But instead of meeting us halfway and at least admitting they were wrong or overconfident or lied or decided poorly, they just deny it and throw it straight back onto the backers.

At this point, that's all I'd wish for. If they can never admit they are wrong, or are too rigid to change course if they're heading the wrong way... well I have GW for that.

 Redbeard wrote:
Look, just because it's "fair" to be annoyed, doesn't mean you shouldn't have expected it. It's Kickstarter - what's "fair" doesn't apply.

You might want to reconsider that sentence. It seems that you are saying there is no workable definition of "fair" that is applicable to KS. That seems at odds with what you later state about basically everything being fair because it is a total crap shoot due to inexperience, etc.

I agree that KS tend to be a crap shoot (and so should offer discounts to mitigate the uncertainty because we as backers are basically acting as venture capitalists) but I can't agree that there is no basis for what is appropriate behavior for those running the KickStarters. Things said about the state of things before the KS even launches, such as "these models are 80% done" having nothing to do with the uncertainty of KS projects and everything to do with overstating the progress achieved ahead of time. If nothing else, it is certainly fair to take away "Raging Heroes is not to be trusted at all when it comes to things being done; at best they are talking through their hats." We should not have to expect people to lie to us. Saying models are 80% done is not a prediction that can go awry, it is a statement of fact regarding the current situation. If one is unsure about that fact it should be qualified as such, not stated with surety and sold as assurance.

I want to repeat this for emphasis: We should not have to expect people to lie to us. When we find that they have, we should feel much worse about them, such as deeming them no longer the sorts of people we want to do business with.

I like to think we weren't lied to, we just couldn't handle the truth.

Wehrkind wrote:
You might want to reconsider that sentence. It seems that you are saying there is no workable definition of "fair" that is applicable to KS. That seems at odds with what you later state about basically everything being fair because it is a total crap shoot due to inexperience, etc.

I don't follow what you're getting at here. Fair is a silly word. Let's instead talk about expectations. When dealing with a Kickstarter project, your expectation should not be the same as when you're dealing with a large multi-national corporation with thirty or more years of experience. When setting your expectations on a kickstarter project, you should assume that there will be delays, miscommunication, and revisions of plans. If you accept that, you'll probably be okay. If you persist in expecting that the rules that apply to established companies, you will continue to be disappointed.

Is that "fair"? I dunno. It's reality.

I agree that KS tend to be a crap shoot (and so should offer discounts to mitigate the uncertainty because we as backers are basically acting as venture capitalists)

Every project I've backed has had rewards for contributions at lower cost than the planned purchase price of the finished project. In this case, when I went to make my pledge manager picks, I had about $200 in freebies/discounts on my $700 pledge. Yeah, I'd say a 28% discount is worth dealing with the uncertainty here.

but I can't agree that there is no basis for what is appropriate behavior for those running the KickStarters. Things said about the state of things before the KS even launches, such as "these models are 80% done" having nothing to do with the uncertainty of KS projects and everything to do with overstating the progress achieved ahead of time. If nothing else, it is certainly fair to take away "Raging Heroes is not to be trusted at all when it comes to things being done; at best they are talking through their hats." We should not have to expect people to lie to us. Saying models are 80% done is not a prediction that can go awry, it is a statement of fact regarding the current situation. If one is unsure about that fact it should be qualified as such, not stated with surety and sold as assurance.

Maybe those models were? Maybe you're right. I haven't the time nor inclination to try and decipher what they said or what it might have referred to. It's simply not an exercise worth doing.

I want to repeat this for emphasis: We should not have to expect people to lie to us. When we find that they have, we should feel much worse about them, such as deeming them no longer the sorts of people we want to do business with.

If you're certain that you were lied to - really certain that it wasn't a communication error, or something lost in translation, then by all means, contact your credit card company, get your money back and move on with your life. The level of stress that this appears to be causing you is unwarranted for what amounts to some toy soliders.

You cannot honestly believe that the statement "All our miniatures are 80% done" made DURING the projects runtime, is true.

A full year after that statement and not a single finalized and 100% finished miniature has been shown.

Actually, that Wappel(I think?) guy finally got to paint a pair of KS minis not that long ago, then again though, this was promised to happen DURING the campaign itself IIRC.

 Redbeard wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Am I the only one who has pledged to *so* many kickstarters as to have become completely unphased by being behind schedule? I've seen other Raging Heroes (non-Kickstarter) miniatures in person before and they were great, I have no reason to believe that they are going to deliver us a crappy product after this. Of course, yknow I'd prefer to have my stuff sooner rather than later, but seriously.

Nope, I've posted the same thing several times. It's just funny to watch everyone obsess over it.

I gotta get me a [Mod] badge so I can troll people without repercussion.

 Redbeard wrote:


I don't follow what you're getting at here. Fair is a silly word. Let's instead talk about expectations. When dealing with a Kickstarter project, your expectation should not be the same as when you're dealing with a large multi-national corporation with thirty or more years of experience. When setting your expectations on a kickstarter project, you should assume that there will be delays, miscommunication, and revisions of plans. If you accept that, you'll probably be okay. If you persist in expecting that the rules that apply to established companies, you will continue to be disappointed.

Is that "fair"? I dunno. It's reality.

Perhaps I wasn't being clear: I am talking expectations, and I think that it is a fair expectation to expect not to be lied to by anyone asking for money in exchange for something, be they small company or not. Even if it was a simple mistake along the lines of "Wow, we thought we had these models 80% done, but damn, we were REALLY underestimating the revisions necessary!" it is not as though RH has admitted as much. (At least not to my knowledge. Might have missed something or forgotten as it has been a while.) Not to mention the fact that they have made many models in the past, so I would be surprised that they didn't know what 80% done looked like.

Now, some people think a fair expectation is anything north of "spent all the backer's funds and blow and hookers without sharing pictures." That's fine too, but I don't think that more rigorous expectations of behavior for a business is out of line for people in our place, time and culture. Even expecting a large number of mistakes and missteps it is hard to give RH a pass given how they have handled things. Even if they were a friend I was doing a project with I wouldn't be inclined to start another project with them in the future.

 Alpharius wrote:
Right.

But then this is pretty much spot on too:

 BrookM wrote:
Thing is though, just because it is a KS should not automatically mean that it is okay to be behind on schedule or that we as backers should just deal with it.

It was clear from day 1 they didn't expect this KS to grow into what it did, the delivery date they posted on the KS was very clearly meant for a much smaller range of miniatures, the second they unlocked more than a dozen or so stretch goals it should have been obvious to all that they would miss their delivery date, and if you weren't willing to wait then you should have backed out at that point.

I think it is pretty fair to be annoyed when a company makes a big deal about how everything has been carefully planned and is mostly done already at the outset, and then turns out to be really, really late. RH made assurance about the lack of delay due to being almost finished anyway part of the value package they were offering, and it turned out to be way over sold at best. (I would go so far as to say it was 80% lie, but I am cynical.)

It would have been one thing if they had said "Hey, we have done out best to get things rolling ahead of time so there won't be delays, but we can't promise shipping within the year." Or if they had just kept their mouths shut. Instead they claimed they were 80% done (though what exactly they meant was nebulous) and things would be out the door quickly.

They may have been 80% with the original wave, but stretch goals are stretch goals for a reason. They weren't miniatures that they were holding in reserve to entice you to spend more money, they are additional products that they can only produce if they have access to more capital, which means that they are further behind in development, and thus require more time.

In any case, it was a very poorly run KS from the getgo, really not surprised that its taken this long, nor am I upset about it. I know I'm going to get what I paid for, and I know its going to be a quality product. It might have taken awhile, but thats whatever to me, as the product likely wouldn't have existed in the first place if I, and others that pledged, hadn't let them hold on to our money in advance of product in the first place. KS isn't a pre-order system, contrary to popular belief, its a funding/investment system, this KS chose to reward your investment with product via pre-order.

I dunno, have we seen the original wave done yet? Or any other reason to believe it was 80% done at the get go? I think maybe Punky was 80% done, and another heroine to two, but that was probably it.

I think, aside from two painted minis, we've only seen some of the wave one minis as a large pile of parts.

RH flat out said they wanted to do 150+ sculpts on the KS page, and that many of them were nearly finished. We only saw renders of a few heroines, and some WIP renders of the KST troops and KST Heavies.

Fast forward a year, and the only figures we've seen that went from the KS render (which were actually refined later on, so that matches the 80% done phrase) to actual real-life model appear to be Lady Hilda von Stroheim, One-Shot Blondie, and Mad Nurse Bernadette.

~7 models previewed during the KS a year ago. So far, only 3 of them will be ready for wave 1.

I think RH overestimated the response they'd see for the KS, and I also think they grossly overestimated the amount of work they'd have to do to get miniatures out the door.

I'm not contributing any support for any of their future KS projects, that's for sure. This KS's long-winded and often times backhanded communication with little or no actual information is not really something I look forward to experiencing a second time round.

My pledge is in, and I paid extra to get 2 waves of shipping. Hopefully that second wave will arrive sometime before 2015.

~iPaint

RoninXiC wrote:
Wow... a year already.. NOTHING is ready.

Several things are ready, and we've seen big bags/boxes of casts

(but many things may indeed still be at the concept art stage)

What's ready right now is but a fraction of what they still need to finish though.

So, if they said the whole 80% and 150 minis things during the KS, and people backed based off of that, then they're probably more than a little justified at being upset now, or however long past the deadline this is, or ends up being.

Or something like that.

People will be smug about it regardless.

On the bright side, that anime you asked about, it is the source of this, my day has become awesome:



Let is also signify that I am ready for the obligatory b-day update.

Well, just a little. As in Canadian upset. Not a blood pressure point above what it normally is. I just hate being lied to, investment or not.

If we're stereotyping, I can't become upset because of the special herbs or something.

I'm sure though that it won't be seen as lying to the customers, because you know, we can't handle that truth.

I'm glad to see we're still doing the thing where we pretend anyone who has expressed even mild irritation at the delays\lies\whatever is actually a raving, screaming, red faced anger demon on the verge of a heart attack or stroke. It's a cool way to argue because it really makes you seem level headed, no matter what you're saying, you know? Maybe sprinkle in a little faux concern for the their state of mind and or blood pressure to really seal the deal.


While I agree that you should have significantly more patience for a kickstarter which is by definition probably run by non-professionals and all the miscalculations, missteps, and plain old mistakes that is likely to entail, I would draw the line at dishonesty, such as, for example, "the project is 80% done"... at least without a codicil, later, that the project has now expanded, or that work had to be scrapped, or something to justify that the only reasonable conclusion later to that statement isn't "that was a bald faced lie".

 Ouze wrote:
I'm glad to see we're still doing the thing where we pretend anyone who has expressed even mild irritation at the delays\lies\whatever is actually a raving, screaming, red faced anger demon on the verge of a heart attack or stroke. It's a cool way to argue because it really makes you seem level headed, no matter what you're saying, you know? Maybe sprinkle in a little faux concern for the their state of mind and or blood pressure to really seal the deal.

Right right, because 220 pages of butthurt isn't irrational in any way.

I like to think of it as 220 pages of people using humor to make the best out of a bad situation. Frankly, RH have been sio dishonest and treated us with such disdain that they deserve a lot worse.

The only reason this thread hasn't gone as dark as Robotech Tactics is because we're trying so hard to see the funny side.

 Redbeard wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I'm glad to see we're still doing the thing where we pretend anyone who has expressed even mild irritation at the delays\lies\whatever is actually a raving, screaming, red faced anger demon on the verge of a heart attack or stroke. It's a cool way to argue because it really makes you seem level headed, no matter what you're saying, you know? Maybe sprinkle in a little faux concern for the their state of mind and or blood pressure to really seal the deal.

Right right, because 220 pages of butthurt isn't irrational in any way.

Did you take up farming? That's a lovely straw man you have there.

Given that we just had this pointless discussion, is there a particular reason you are belaboring people in this matter again?

You'll note, by the way, that there were some specific questions I had for you in that last post. I remain genuinely curious for the basis of certain statements you have made.

Moving on to address the actual matters, it would be amazing for any other company (though par for the course here) but can it really be that RH is choosing to address their customers' questions exclusively through live chat? I haven't noticed a single official communication from RH since the PM went wide.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Given that we just had this pointless discussion, is there a particular reason you are belaboring people in this matter again?

Yes. Because I'm subscribed to this thread so that I can get useful information and feedback. And every time the New Posts thing comes up in my subscribed threads list, all I see is people whinging about how some expectation they had isn't being met. This is not useful information. It has gotten annoying. I don't want to unsubscribe from the thread, because there has been legitimately useful information posted here in the past. But finding those gems in the 200 odd pages of complaints is a challenge. I'd rather that not be the case, so I'm trying to encourage people to set their expectations more appropriately for the kickstarter platform. This doesn't seem to be working well, but every time I get pulled back here to check the new posts, I'm tempted to try again. I'm happy to stop trying, if all the complaints would stop as well and we could simply use the thread for useful info.

You'll note, by the way, that there were some specific questions I had for you in that last post. I remain genuinely curious for the basis of certain statements you have made.

To be honest, the one you linked back to was A) a huge wall of text that I had a hard time discerning a question in (I don't see a single question mark there), and B) contained all sorts of references to "under the law" and "legally speaking", which, as I'm neither a lawyer, nor a lawyer specializing in international trade, I can't speak to.

If you're a lawyer and want to have a legalistic discussion, I'm not the right guy to have that discussion with. If you want to sum up the questions that you're genuinely curious about, I'll do my best to answer them.

Outside of that, I like kickstarter; I also acknowledge the limitations of the platform. My experience with RH is not substantially different than my experience with other kickstarter projects that I've backed, and is substantially better than at least two.