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I quite understand those who had projects they wanted these for steering well clear of any future KS from them,

but since I liked the initial shipment, and am (reasonably) convinced I will eventually see the rest and just got them to paint I'll take a look at what's on offer and decide based on that

(with a clear expectation of adding a year or two to the delivery date)

as long as I don't waste all my fun money on KS delays don't hurt too much

Ill be backing their further projects but with a more skeptical eye

Their figures are the only ones I'm painting now ( with the exception of the odd Infinity figure) so ill just put it on the in 2 year burner

Sisters of Battle are my favorite 40K army, so I'm obviously a masochist. Not so much so that I'd back a Raging Heroes Sisters Kickstarter though

I'll back an RH Sisters army, but so far have been sorely disappointed with the concept art.

I can see even the most staunch RH defenders are getting disappointed in the comments now. But as this guy writes:

I am just so BORED with this KS now.

No interest at all!

I feel the same way. It's not even amusing to point fun at them anymore. I don't even care about the miniatures and there's like 300$ worth left to be delivered.. I'm not sure I'll ever be excited with a KS, RH or otherwise. :(

RH appears to be the best prescription for those looking to get burned by a KS into not pledging on anything else for some time to come.

 BrookM wrote:
RH appears to be the best prescription for those looking to get burned by a KS into not pledging on anything else for some time to come.

Nah, that would be Sedition Wars, the game that people see on sale at 75% off and say "the bases are probably worth it".

Aye.. I'm a Sedition Wars survivor, I put nearly £250 into it... got back around £150-180 which I consider a bargain all things considered.

This wait is still not my longest, and tbh, as long as they deliver I'll be happy, the quality is there, and I knew what train I was boarding when I made the pledge,

I think thats the key consideration for Kickstarter.. pledge like you don't expect to see it for a year ish at best and you'll be fine.

I bailed on Sedition Wars and I'm glad CMoN acted like they did and turned me away from that one, dodged an artillery round with that one for sure.

I wish I had done the same, the bases were ok and the 3D terrain set was good and that's about it.

 BrookM wrote:
RH appears to be the best prescription for those looking to get burned by a KS into not pledging on anything else for some time to come.

Twas the final nail in the coffin for me, thats for sure, this and sedition wars were the first and last wargaming related kickstarters I ever go in on, Im just going to stick with what I know from now on.

Shame really KS was such a great way to support niche products that wouldn't survive standard business models. But every artist team seems to have eyes bigger than their stomach. Only mantic seems to get away with KSing everything and their morning coffee.

 Theduke07 wrote:
Shame really KS was such a great way to support niche products that wouldn't survive standard business models. But every artist team seems to have eyes bigger than their stomach. Only mantic seems to get away with KSing everything and their morning coffee.

I have no idea why. The figures don't inspire me at all.

 Theduke07 wrote:
Shame really KS was such a great way to support niche products that wouldn't survive standard business models. But every artist team seems to have eyes bigger than their stomach. Only mantic seems to get away with KSing everything and their morning coffee.

It's surprising how consistently late the RPG or wargame kickstarters I've backed have been. There are three I backed that were meant to deliver in 2013, but still have no indication when they'll be arrive. I think that for certain categories, there should be a routine in the Kickstarter software to automatically add 6 months onto all delivery estimates.

6 months wouldn't help in many cases, a few of them are going a year + right now.

To date, this is the only kickstarter Ive pledged that arrived on time:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/421928137/the-most-awesome-poker-set-in-the-world

Actually it came ahead of schedule.

Only one that's been on schedule for me so far has been Zombicide, but that was CMoN's first one, so go figure.

Though another one I backed not that long ago has also started shipping, it's US backers first right now, but hey, they're shipping on time as promised.

Not.a.single.one.

Even one that was casting things as the campaign was running ended up being 6 months late, as the caster lost his job and went into hiding.

Ugh. I have to say, though, Dreamforge still holds my personal record, unfortunately. The complexity and scope of that campaign was a bit greater than this one, though.

Got my Mechadrome stuff last week, and that was scheduled for next month

But other than that I'd put an estimate of 10% of KS I've backed have been delivered on time - that's across books, films, miniatures and games. Dreamforge, then very closely followed by Judge Dredd are my longest two. Been so long that I've actually lost my notes on what I ordered from Dredd, so going to be hard pressed to know when it is complete for me.

 Elemental wrote:

 Theduke07 wrote:
Shame really KS was such a great way to support niche products that wouldn't survive standard business models. But every artist team seems to have eyes bigger than their stomach. Only mantic seems to get away with KSing everything and their morning coffee.

It's surprising how consistently late the RPG or wargame kickstarters I've backed have been. There are three I backed that were meant to deliver in 2013, but still have no indication when they'll be arrive. I think that for certain categories, there should be a routine in the Kickstarter software to automatically add 6 months onto all delivery estimates.

I don't think it's surprising. People forget that, after all, this is a business.

Kickstarters for RPG/tabletop, hell even video games, are usually done by fans and fanatics who have a nice little idea for something (or think they do). They usually have a certain technical/artistic skill but they lack any kind of business sense. If they had it, they probably would have been running a business already. Unfortunately to run a business you need a business-minded person, but most "technical" people consider them useless vultures and would never hire one, so there you have it.

 Haljin wrote:


I don't think it's surprising. People forget that, after all, this is a business.

Kickstarters for RPG/tabletop, hell even video games, are usually done by fans and fanatics who have a nice little idea for something (or think they do). They usually have a certain technical/artistic skill but they lack any kind of business sense. If they had it, they probably would have been running a business already. Unfortunately to run a business you need a business-minded person, but most "technical" people consider them useless vultures and would never hire one, so there you have it.

There are a whole lot of BS generalizations here.

I don't know why this problem seems to plague miniature game Kickstarters, but it often seems to fall apart in the manufacturing end.

Is it due to poor initial estimates, production problems, volume being massively increased via the KS, some combination of these, or other reasons altogether? I don't think we have a big enough pool to see good trends yet.

~Eric

 Taarnak wrote:

 Haljin wrote:


I don't think it's surprising. People forget that, after all, this is a business.

Kickstarters for RPG/tabletop, hell even video games, are usually done by fans and fanatics who have a nice little idea for something (or think they do). They usually have a certain technical/artistic skill but they lack any kind of business sense. If they had it, they probably would have been running a business already. Unfortunately to run a business you need a business-minded person, but most "technical" people consider them useless vultures and would never hire one, so there you have it.

There are a whole lot of BS generalizations here.

I don't know why this problem seems to plague miniature game Kickstarters, but it often seems to fall apart in the manufacturing end.

Is it due to poor initial estimates, production problems, volume being massively increased via the KS, some combination of these, or other reasons altogether? I don't think we have a big enough pool to see good trends yet.

~Eric

Why BS? Just look at RH. They clearly have no idea how to run a business. They know how to sculpt , they are really good at it, but they fail at every other aspect. I think it' s mostly because it seems so easy - just sculpt a few things, cast it and send it off. Then money starts flowing your way, you have to do stretch goals (after all everybody has them!) and you start promising more and more not thinking much about how can you deliver this on time. I think it's mostly due to lack of experience on how to run such projects.

It will be interesting to see how long before they'll go down the same road as Rackham.

Well, if we need such broad generalizations, business minded people seem to be equally incompetent running a business because they focus on "efficiency" parts and let everything else crumble.

Truth is kickstarter is a beast that one should not approach as a company, neither as creator or as backer backers should be ready to accept a more wide delivery gap and creators should put a line in stretch goals and say, from here on its a new delivery date.

Now on this kickstarter I think RH underestimated a lot of things, first of all what the backers wanted, as is evident from the initial "heroic" 3D prints, they underestimated what they offered and how it will affect their delivery time and underestimated the need of communication, I am not sure if somebody with "business sense" would fare better.

Their "artist" problem is not knowing when to stop revisiting a sculpt.

All of the above are lessons their next kickstarter will be a testament if they are capable fo learning or not.

But I have been on both sides of the KS spectrum both as somebody creating content and as a consumer And although both ks went slightly over our estimates, It did go out and I believe the majority of people were happy.


I can see why creators use Indiegogo and for small projects its fine. I'm going to use it myself soon to create a project. I've always helped never run one so wish me luck.

Communication is key in keeping your backers happy. That and positive incentives for waiting.

I don't think they will have learned anything regarding communication, however maybe with time frames?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Well, if we need such broad generalizations, business minded people seem to be equally incompetent running a business because they focus on "efficiency" parts and let everything else crumble.

Truth is kickstarter is a beast that one should not approach as a company, neither as creator or as backer backers should be ready to accept a more wide delivery gap and creators should put a line in stretch goals and say, from here on its a new delivery date.

Now on this kickstarter I think RH underestimated a lot of things, first of all what the backers wanted, as is evident from the initial "heroic" 3D prints, they underestimated what they offered and how it will affect their delivery time and underestimated the need of communication, I am not sure if somebody with "business sense" would fare better.

Their "artist" problem is not knowing when to stop revisiting a sculpt.

All of the above are lessons their next kickstarter will be a testament if they are capable fo learning or not.

Sure, you need a good balance in both. The numbers guy must be there to reel the artist in, but also should not keep him down too hard. I think this is most prevalent in large companies where the two are isolated and there is no human interaction between them.

If anyone could use reeling in, that's RH.

Communication is key in keeping your backers happy. That and positive incentives for waiting.

I don't think they will have learned anything regarding communication, however maybe with time frames?

RH? Nope. It' s been a long time, I am starting to believe that the communication guy they hired never existed.

Yeah... Seriously, They post an update and hide away. Regular posts of old pictures and stuff on their two Facebook accounts.

No comments (not even on Facebook) whatsoever.

They did update their Tumblr recently:

 BrookM wrote:
They did update their Tumblr recently:

Spoiler:

.. are they taking their store/update/promo photos with a tablet?

Eyup, boggles the mind doesn't it? Why bother with an expensive and professional camera setup when you can just instagram that gak with a tablet.

No no no.

all you naysayers are crazy

the expensive and professional camera setup is being used to take the pic of a guy taking a pic.
You can tell by the awesome light and grain filters they used.
the only thing better would be if there was a professional video crew recording the guy taking the pictures of the guy taking pics of the models. It would be like Inception!