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 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Rebox and price increase...

If the new Chaos thing is rumored at $125, I can see the Baneblade/Shadowsword and Stompa going to that point instead of the $115 they are at now.

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.

IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.

It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.

Panic...

It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.

Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.

IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.

It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.

Panic...

It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.

Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.

Well put, conveying my thoughts exactly.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.

Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.

Finally, something I can agree with. To be clear though, that sentence is also true if you swap saints and sinners.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.

IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.

It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.

Panic...

It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.

Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.

That's true to an extent.. although that shouldn't excuse GW of their other faults (of which there are many).

I think the problem is for many people who have been around for a while, they are so sick and tired of having a groin repeatedly thrust in their face by a fat man, smoking a cigar rolled with $100 notes (picture it!) that it begins to colour their opinion of everything that the company says or does. And in that sense, it will take some time of GW not doing anything 'evil' to get the veteran fans back on board. The 'crimes' of CHS pale in significance to the ridiculous price rises, the RoW embargo, Finecast, the axing of specialist games, the dirth of imagination and stagnation of GW circa 2013. When I look at the good ship GW, and the course it is taking, I don't see the minnow that is CHS as being responsible for many of the company's faults.

It's actually quite a remarkable accomplishment - GW had built up a tremendous amount of good will over the first 15-20 years of its existence; it's taken some pretty atrocious (perhaps callous is a better word) behaviour by them to erode that. Now the only people who find it acceptable are youngsters or rookies to wargaming who have never known any different (or expect such behaviour from the corporation, big-business orientated world), and people who don't care or choose to ignore it for whatever reason.

 Pacific wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.

IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.

It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.

Panic...

It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.

Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.

That's true to an extent.. although that shouldn't excuse GW of their other faults (of which there are many).

I think the problem is for many people who have been around for a while, they are so sick and tired of having a groin repeatedly thrust in their face by a fat man, smoking a cigar rolled with $100 notes (picture it!) that it begins to colour their opinion of everything that the company says or does. And in that sense, it will take some time of GW not doing anything 'evil' to get the veteran fans back on board. The 'crimes' of CHS pale in significance to the ridiculous price rises, the RoW embargo, Finecast, the axing of specialist games, the dirth of imagination and stagnation of GW circa 2013. When I look at the good ship GW, and the course it is taking, I don't see the minnow that is CHS as being responsible for many of the company's faults.

It's actually quite a remarkable accomplishment - GW had built up a tremendous amount of good will over the first 15-20 years of its existence; it's taken some pretty atrocious (perhaps callous is a better word) behaviour by them to erode that. Now the only people who find it acceptable are youngsters or rookies to wargaming who have never known any different (or expect such behaviour from the corporation, big-business orientated world), and people who don't care or choose to ignore it for whatever reason.

Or perhaps people are so used to the "old times" when GW essentially dominated the market and could afford the luxury of not making as much money and focusing on the hobby bit. I don't know, honestly, but it seems like there's so much unnecessary competition out there that GW has to vie for in order to hold shareholder interest. When I heard podcasts like The Independent Characters who have actually met the GW dev dudes, it always reminds me that the guys on the ground over there are probably just like us. How far do we want to go to villianize the devs ("omg this guy wrote such a bad BRB", etc.) when they clearly have internal issues what with core sculptors starting to leave and all? Is this the right attitude to take? We criticize and complain about the people working there, and when they leave the company, it becomes a "sniff sniff sad sad" moment instead. I'm pretty sure that more than half of the things we blame the devs for are can probably be attributed to those fat men in suits smoking hunnid-dollah bill cigars above the devs.

 Panic wrote:
It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.

Panic...

Your bias is showing here.

Actually, I criticized one of those alternative ADLs straight to the sculptor's face when he first posted them to Dakka. So there goes that little theory of yours. I suspect the praise "we lot" are offering to these kits is that even for as amateurish as they are, at least they exist. For people who actually play GW's over-priced game (I don't), these kits fill a huge gap in the line because of GW's refusal to provide gaming pieces to each army they produce. And if you actually play the game, a mediocre model is vastly better than either no model at all, or trying to invent increasingly thin reasons to justify putting Imperial-themed terrain in non-Imperial armies.

But I think the more troubling part of your post is the bit about "how jaded dakka has been allowed to get". First of all, "allowed"? We have to have opinions about GW that are "allowed" by someone now, do we? Secondly, if we are jaded, it is because of the way GW has treated us after spending thousands of dollars on their products. You may like GW, and that's just dandy. But the moment you try and start silencing people just because they don't agree with your opinion of the company, that's when we will have a problem. Let's leave the brand-loyalty wars to the console gamers, shall we?

Hey, I thought this thread was about a new version of Apoc?

Let's stay on topic please, it is Rule Number Two! Thanks!

I had an Apocalypse game last weekend.

My epic moment: Charging a Warhound titan with a Sternguard sergeant holding a meltabomb, said sergeant dying from the stomp attack but landing his melta bomb. After the penetrating hit, I rolled 6, 6, 6 (we use the old Super Heavy damage table) to strip the 3 structure points and just missed getting the apocalyptic explosion result.

It was a good game.

That said, there are a lot of gaps between the 4th edition Apocalypse rules and subsequent 5th edition Apocalypse supplements and 6th edition. I'm looking forward to the changes.

We've had to house rule things like the Replacements Strategic Asset so that you can't get a super heavy back and things like that.

I've enjoyed apocalypse level games but I've never been a fan of formations and by all accounts they will sill be a large part of the new apoc ruleset. Kind of a downer. At the end of the day we cam just not play with them so it's not the end of the world. I do really hope they take it a bit more seriously with the strategic assets, flank march was always a race to the bottom.

They roughly valued assets at 250pts ish ,but that never sat well with me because they ranged so drastically in the effects they had on gameplay and balance. My concern though is like with psychic powers in the brb, it will remain a copout and rather than assign a point cost to assets they'll either keep it the same as the original apoc ruleset or god forbid force randomization on everyon.

Really hoping to see boxed sets like we did in the past, with tank formations, green tide etc...



Suspect I'll be disappointed though...

Dreadnought legion, do it GW.

I just played what will likely be the last Apoc game of this edition. 30k points on the table, and my moment of glory; killing a stompa with a shaken Hunter-Killer missile.

What's a pointless 10 point upgrade now?

So long as the re-release remains chaotic and amusing, all will be well. Granted, I'm not looking forwards to that stupid khornedozer on the table, but I have enough Vanquishers to remove it from said table rapidly, regardless of its stats.

One thing, however, that I hope they remove is Flank March and Replacements; they kind of invalidate every other asset in the game.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Really hoping to see boxed sets like we did in the past, with tank formations, green tide etc...

Agreed, my wallet might take a hiding though if it does happen...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Suspect I'll be disappointed though...

I also sadly find myself tending to agree.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
One thing, however, that I hope they remove is Flank March and Replacements; they kind of invalidate every other asset in the game.

lol you mean you'd take flank march or replacements instead of anti plant barrage? You sir are crazy! :p

I don't mind the concept of replacements but there should be a lot of restrictions. It kinda goes back to the issue of them valuing an asset at roughly 250pts. A 250pts asset shouldn't be able to make a 500pt unit come back from the dead.

Flank march just shouldn't exist as an army wide benefit. If it allowed you to select a single non-super heavy or gargantuan creature and allow that one unit to come in on any board edge that'd be ok.

So I guess there's no more discussion about the new Apocalypse stuff? 3 pics and 30 pages of irrelevant discussion?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So I guess there's no more discussion about the new Apocalypse stuff? 3 pics and 30 pages of irrelevant discussion?

THIS IS DAKKA!

No, seriously, this is Dakka. We wouldn't do it any other way.

If news and rumour threads were solely the news and rumours themselves, they'd be very short indeed: instead the bulk of the threads is the discussion of these rumours, like the bulk of this thread.

And next week we should start seeing more WD leaks.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.

IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.

It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.

Panic...

It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.

Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.

Best posts on the boards in a long time. Smartest, for sure.

Pacific wrote:

That's true to an extent.. although that shouldn't excuse GW of their other faults (of which there are many).

I think the problem is for many people who have been around for a while, they are so sick and tired of having a groin repeatedly thrust in their face by a fat man, smoking a cigar rolled with $100 notes (picture it!) that it begins to colour their opinion of everything that the company says or does. And in that sense, it will take some time of GW not doing anything 'evil' to get the veteran fans back on board. The 'crimes' of CHS pale in significance to the ridiculous price rises, the RoW embargo, Finecast, the axing of specialist games, the dirth of imagination and stagnation of GW circa 2013. When I look at the good ship GW, and the course it is taking, I don't see the minnow that is CHS as being responsible for many of the company's faults.

It's actually quite a remarkable accomplishment - GW had built up a tremendous amount of good will over the first 15-20 years of its existence; it's taken some pretty atrocious (perhaps callous is a better word) behaviour by them to erode that. Now the only people who find it acceptable are youngsters or rookies to wargaming who have never known any different (or expect such behaviour from the corporation, big-business orientated world), and people who don't care or choose to ignore it for whatever reason.

I've been in the game for 17 years, so it's not youngsters or rookies alone. Also, the government establishments are far worse than any corporation right now, because they strip away our living rights. (The worst case is when they are in it together.)

At any rate, you cite mostly personal opinions or grudges as "offenses" without facts, and then belittle someone else taking the opposite view. Furthermore, every miniatures game (with miniatures that don't suck) is tremendously overpriced.

JOHIRA wrote:

 Panic wrote:
It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.

Panic...

Your bias is showing here.

Actually, I criticized one of those alternative ADLs straight to the sculptor's face when he first posted them to Dakka. So there goes that little theory of yours. I suspect the praise "we lot" are offering to these kits is that even for as amateurish as they are, at least they exist. For people who actually play GW's over-priced game (I don't), these kits fill a huge gap in the line because of GW's refusal to provide gaming pieces to each army they produce. And if you actually play the game, a mediocre model is vastly better than either no model at all, or trying to invent increasingly thin reasons to justify putting Imperial-themed terrain in non-Imperial armies.

But I think the more troubling part of your post is the bit about "how jaded dakka has been allowed to get". First of all, "allowed"? We have to have opinions about GW that are "allowed" by someone now, do we? Secondly, if we are jaded, it is because of the way GW has treated us after spending thousands of dollars on their products. You may like GW, and that's just dandy. But the moment you try and start silencing people just because they don't agree with your opinion of the company, that's when we will have a problem. Let's leave the brand-loyalty wars to the console gamers, shall we?

How many kits don't exist among the 6th edition codices? Seriously, each 6th edition book has been released with the idea in mind that models aren't left unrepresented because of companies like CH that can't produce any of their own original content. And I'd rather have no model than a crappy looking one.

You also have it ass-backwards. Right now, hating GW is the Democrat party, and the forums are the media. Hating is the establishment, and the forums report only in support of that view while squashing, flaming, and all but destroying anything that dares present an opposing (and often fact-based) view.

More people hate GW for things that don't even impact them, or because it's easier to go with the flow, than those who dare speak out in their defense. The true sign of the uneducated are those that believe a guy who has money is automatically evil, and that's grounds for an argument in their minds.

If you don't want to pay for their stuff, don't; but don't pretend the 3rd party knockoffs are anywhere CLOSE to what GW produces, or as "valuable" (when they often cost the same or more for garbage). Don't pretend that other comparable games, with great models, are any cheaper on a kit-by-kit basis. Privateer Press is the closest, and their models are way more expensive individually, and they actually have LOST ground to GW the last 15 months. If GW was ripping people off, acting criminally, etc., they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Wanting to make money as a business isn't criminal. Producing stuff costs money. Distributing to as wide an audience as GW has is expensive. Releasing new codices every other month is expensive. It's a hobby; a freaking niche hobby at that. GW isn't stealing from anyone, people are voluntarily giving them their money. They don't have to play or buy, but they do.

 brassangel wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Panic wrote:
yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.

IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.

It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.

Panic...

It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.

Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.

Best posts on the boards in a long time. Smartest, for sure.

Really? In the main I found it tedious and hackneyed with a hint of straw man. I have to agree about the quality of the CH product though, never been tempted myself.

brassangel wrote: but don't pretend the 3rd party knockoffs are anywhere CLOSE to what GW produces,

I guess you haven't seen anything from Kromlech or Anvil Industries, or MaxMini?

There are more than a handful of companies making better sculpts than GW. Some are even cheaper, at worst they are about the same cost.

In fact, for the most part, I'd say the 3rd party companies I follow put out top shelf sculpts.

And everyone makes CHS out to be this evil entity. If GW produced a full range of products to support the games they make, CHS wouldn't exist. Furthermore, if the stuff CHS makes wasn't sought after by the community, CHS wouldn't exist. Did CHS take a few things too far, yeah, probably. They have been issued a judgement for those transgressions.

I give GW credit where I feel it's due. But that generally deals with a new good looking model. Their business practices are generally atrocious as are the prices.

There are 3rd party companies selling bad sculpts. There are also 3rd party companies selling fantastic sculpts.

Both 'sides' should stop making such broad generalizations.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I just played what will likely be the last Apoc game of this edition. 30k points on the table, and my moment of glory; killing a stompa with a shaken Hunter-Killer missile.

What's a pointless 10 point upgrade now?

So long as the re-release remains chaotic and amusing, all will be well. Granted, I'm not looking forwards to that stupid khornedozer on the table, but I have enough Vanquishers to remove it from said table rapidly, regardless of its stats.

One thing, however, that I hope they remove is Flank March and Replacements; they kind of invalidate every other asset in the game.

The last time I played an Apoc game, there was a guy on the other side who was bringing The Green Tide Formation. And we knew, long before terrain was laid, that he'd be using Flank March.

Yeah, that would have been so much fun. 100 Orks in one mob, coming on from behind us and charging right away.

So, I made sure I took the Ambush Asset.

Nothing quite like letting him line up for his charge which would knock out ALL of our infantry shooting in one move, and then wiping 59 of them off the table before they even get to do anything.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
So I guess there's no more discussion about the new Apocalypse stuff? 3 pics and 30 pages of irrelevant discussion?

THIS IS DAKKA!

No, seriously, this is Dakka. We wouldn't do it any other way.

Whats more you couldn't get it any other way even if you wanted to

But seriously I hope they do a decent spread and don't just make it a white dwarf only expansion.

You know, it's funny. I'm actually a big fan of the Skulldozer - and anything that brings back Epic units. But I haven't had a Chaos army since 2nd edition.

Then I remembered I have that Dark Vengeance set sitting there, plus 5 more Cultists I got for Christmas. A bit of fiddling with Battlescribe, and I've figures out a really cheap (for 40k) way to get it to 1500pts, and give me a reason to grab that Skulldozer.

I just want to see what alternate heads it has before I decide. I like it generally, just not the head.

But I want to see the new terrain more...

New teaser is up on GW's site, its pretty vague but it looks like its for Apocalypse.

What was the point of the lines about the blind and madmen??

Not apocalypse related in any way. Way to be cryptic GeeDubs.

 Pacific wrote:
The old Epic lord of battle:



And the old box art from the 'Renegades' expansion to Epic, I believe those are Chaos war engines in the background. So yes, scale is a bit different!

That looks a lot better than the current Lord of Battle. The head and the overall toyish quality of the model really kills the new one.

Also, the pics in the OP are broken on my end :/

Yep that teaser is for apocalypse, its says the dark and mad times because thats what apocalypse is, just pure madness. Also the planet going to should be a huge give away.