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I was toying about with some tournament Eldar builds and this is what I came up with:

1850

Spiritseer 70

5 Wraithguard, D-Scythes 210
Wave Serpent, Bright Lance, Holo Field 135

5 Wraithguard, D-Scythes 210
Wave Serpent, Bright Lance, Holo Field 135

5 Wraithguard, D-Scythes 210
Wave Serpent, Bright Lance, Holo Field 135

5 Wraithguard, D-Scythes 210
Wave Serpent, Bright Lance, Holo Field 135

5 Wraithguard, D-Scythes 210
Wave Serpent, Bright Lance, Holo Field 135

Guardian Jetbikes 51

As a Ravenwing player this is possibly the hardest counter to my list I could possibly think of at the moment (Triple Helldrakes can't get past my Contemptors.)

In fact I can't think of too many lists this would struggle with- D-Scythes are possibly the scariest weapons currently in game (Str 4 Ap 2 Flamers which ID on a roll of 6). This list rolls assault armies (too fast, too many transports, assaulting 5d3 overwatch flamers is a recipe for disaster) Necron Wraithwing builds (pick off the ABarges from range, flame the Wraiths with ID flamers... 20 of them) Farsight Bombs (zoom in, disembark, flame: Shadowsun can't help you here... 2-3 Wave Serpents will get wrecked, but they don't have enough shooting to take out 15+ T6 wounds after shooting the transports) Guard Blobs/Sabre Platforms can't really compete either. Even if things go pear shaped you'll probably still have a Wave Serpent to plop down T6 troops somewhere on the 6th or 7th turn, as well as the Jetbikes boosting on.

The only hard counter I imagine is Tzeentchian Flying Circus, but even so the FMCs are going to have a hard time either downing the Wave Serpents, and rushing the Wraithguard in cc is a risky prospect, as just a single ID result can ruin any Daemon Prince/ Greater Daemon's day.

I can see this being effective in a spam list, so there are no weaknesses, but as a single unit is 345 points a little too much to sink into a Wraithserpent for normal play? The one thing the list really needs is strong counter-assault, as once in CC the Wraithguard are kind of boned.

Against necrons, you might be able to kill the wraiths, but you can't really do anything against the scythes. Also, depending on the number of wariths, the d'lord and a wraith or two would probably make combat, at which point your wraithguard would die.

Also, I think the spiritseer would present a very easy first blood and kill the warlord. Would he be deployed in one of the Wave Serpents with some warithguard? Can he be given a bike and deploy with the windrider jetbikes (in reserve)?

I'm still digging into the Eldar codex, but I agree, on paper this looks like an absolutely brutal build.

I'm currently running Sabre blob with HVY artillery carraiges with a Tzeentch Flying 2 Ring Circus (LoC, DP, Hounds), so I think I have the tools to handle it. But let me tell you, I won't be using one of my FMCs as the primary assaulter on any of those squads once I de-transport them.

I think you're absolutely right about it being an all or nothing thing, it will be too easy to take out one Wave Serpeant and force the WG to walk, but if you have 3+ squads, you'll get some of them where you want them...

I have been thinking of a similar list.

The biggest problem is fliers lists as you only have brightlances to deal with them. You will average ~3 hits per turn at full strength against flyers and half of those will fail to even glance. So against necrons you will have to hold the objectives all game while they have free reign to attack your positions at will. Against triple helldrake CSM lists you will have a hellish time as the vector strikes will pop ~2 wavserpents a turn and kill ~5 of the wraithguard a turn with little to no ability in your list to stop them. If you can get enough of them spread out wide enough you might be able to hold the objectives though and you should be able to eliminate the troops in such a list. Still having no way to do anything against an entire class of opponent is never a good sign. I recommend drop a serpent/wraith unit and add 2 crimson hunters.

@DexKivuli
The spiritseer attaches to a wraithguard unit in a serpent.

 ansacs wrote:
The biggest problem is fliers lists as you only have brightlances to deal with them. You will average ~3 hits per turn at full strength against flyers and half of those will fail to even glance... I recommend drop a serpent/wraith unit and add 2 crimson hunters.

And diving for jink....

I think th list needs a little more diversification, as the crimson hunters won't be enought to deal with flyer spam. If there is a necron army with lots of scythes, as well as annihilation barges, what do you shoot at?

To be honest, I'm not even sure how the list would handle Tau. Lots of missilesides behind a firewarrior wall (coupled with some evasive riptides) would also be a stretch...

I think you should trade all of those brightlances for scatterlasers. TL 4 shot SLs should get 1.33 hits each time you fire, thus causing the serpent shield to be TL as well, giving you D6+1 S7 shots at flyers that ignore cover. With 5 serpents, I'm sure you can down some a serious amount of Scythes a turn.

Half those units need to keep their D-cannons for TAC situations.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Guard Blobs/Sabre Platforms can't really compete either.

Err, no. Even if you get first turn and move flat out an equal point value in LC Sabre guns is doing 1.15 glances a turn to each of the transports (and considerably more if you don't have that 3+ cover save), while STR 4 weapons do very little to a Sabre platoon spread out at maximum coherency. The meatshield blobs will keep you from getting in close enough to flame the guns right away (leaving you out in the open with expensive elite infantry), and even once you do wounding on 6s against a horde of extra wounds on the guns is not a very efficient way of killing them.

but they don't have enough shooting to take out 15+ T6 wounds after shooting the transports

They don't need to. Once the transports are dead the shooting units can JSJ away, leaving you out of flamer threat range.

Actually MC are not a major threat as you can pink at them with each WS and ground each one then open up on it with the ID on 6s flamers...and may nurgle aid them if they are foolish enough to charge them (5d3=10, you should average almost 2 ID, autowounding, AP2 hits)

2 wraith hunters is 2 autokills against pretty much any of the flyers out there. Admittedly you should bring an autarch to keep them off until you need them but even still with some playing with staying at long range those flyers should be able to get 2-3 flyer kills. This is probably enough as your scoring troops in this list are murder.

Tau actually would be a fun fight. Just Turbo boost into their lines Turn 1 and exit the destroyed WS to then flamer them to oblivion. The riptides will be a pain but you do have the mobility edge to destroy the troops Turn 2.

 ansacs wrote:
Actually MC are not a major threat as you can pink at them with each WS and ground each one then open up on it with the ID on 6s flamers...and may nurgle aid them if they are foolish enough to charge them (5d3=10, you should average almost 2 ID, autowounding, AP2 hits)

2 wraith hunters is 2 autokills against pretty much any of the flyers out there. Admittedly you should bring an autarch to keep them off until you need them but even still with some playing with staying at long range those flyers should be able to get 2-3 flyer kills. This is probably enough as your scoring troops in this list are murder.

Tau actually would be a fun fight. Just Turbo boost into their lines Turn 1 and exit the destroyed WS to then flamer them to oblivion. The riptides will be a pain but you do have the mobility edge to destroy the troops Turn 2.

A good Tzeentch Flying circus has Fateweaver in it. You're not grounding anyone. And the Overwatch will go into Hounds or Seekers buffer with the Grimoire, the FMCs will come in after (if they even assault, enfeeble plus flickering fire should be able to put down a small unit of Wraithguard, or just multiple vector strikes)

Everyone sees FMCs and thinks "assault" Then they get shot off the board. (or in my last game, Hallucinated off the board. Heh. Assault Termies do not tank hits from themselves very well)

Wave serpents are anti air....have you read the serpent shield yet people?

I agree make 1-2 scatter lasers for better anti air.

You know they just have to hit to force a grounding test. They do not have to wound or make you fail any saves.

Admittedly this needs some anti air I am not arguing that but FMC lists can be grounded by MSU shooting. Especially twin-linked weapons.

The wraithguard scyth units actually tank hits fairly well from themselves as they require a 5 to wound from their own strength and get their 3+ saves. Waste of warp points. Not that I am saying FMC psycher is a bad route against this list but it is no where near the one sided fight you think.

 ansacs wrote:
You know they just have to hit to force a grounding test. They do not have to wound or make you fail any saves.

Admittedly this needs some anti air I am not arguing that but FMC lists can be grounded by MSU shooting. Especially twin-linked weapons.

The wraithguard scyth units actually tank hits fairly well from themselves as they require a 5 to wound from their own strength and get their 3+ saves. Waste of warp points. Not that I am saying FMC psycher is a bad route against this list but it is no where near the one sided fight you think.

I'm aware of how grounding tests work, haha. Fateweaver allows one reroll (of anything) per player turn. It almost always goes towards grounding tests. As such, a Tzeentch flying circus is extremely hard to ground (roughly an 11% chance to ground a FMC on a hit).

You are right on Hallucinate not being the answer, I just mentioned that as one of the various tools a Flying Circus can bring (although I'm sure it could still be annoying). Enfeeble plus Vector Strike should work pretty well. The ability to kill units in the movement phase is so powerful.

Flier and flying MC heavy lists can deal with this pretty well, and it dies horribly to Drakes since the entire army is short ranged with 3+ saves. Anything with plenty of infantry units will also do fairly well, I expect Nids to take this build apart since you have no answer to the Flyrants, you aren't getting anywhere near the Tervigons in one piece and you will just get drowned in Gaunt bodies and taken down by poison. I also expect fast assault lists that use Spawn or Fleshhounds to do ok, since you aren't going to get through all those wounds before they hit you even if you do get a good flame + overwatch off.

DexKivuli wrote:Against necrons, you might be able to kill the wraiths, but you can't really do anything against the scythes. Also, depending on the number of wariths, the d'lord and a wraith or two would probably make combat, at which point your wraithguard would die.

Also, I think the spiritseer would present a very easy first blood and kill the warlord. Would he be deployed in one of the Wave Serpents with some warithguard? Can he be given a bike and deploy with the windrider jetbikes (in reserve)?

You mean one Wraithguard unit may die. They're not going to survive another overwatch after the first. I don't see how the Scythes do much, besides shoot the Wave Serpents a bit and drop troops down on the last turn. My WG will be there contesting/flaming them. Necron ranged weaponry in Wraithwing will struggle to kill WG (T6, 2 Wounds, 3+).

The Spiritseer will go in one of the Wave Serpents to give it Shrouded (2+ cover save!)

anonymou5 wrote:I'm still digging into the Eldar codex, but I agree, on paper this looks like an absolutely brutal build.

I'm currently running Sabre blob with HVY artillery carraiges with a Tzeentch Flying 2 Ring Circus (LoC, DP, Hounds), so I think I have the tools to handle it. But let me tell you, I won't be using one of my FMCs as the primary assaulter on any of those squads once I de-transport them.

I think you're absolutely right about it being an all or nothing thing, it will be too easy to take out one Wave Serpeant and force the WG to walk, but if you have 3+ squads, you'll get some of them where you want them...

It is, of course it's quite mono-dimensional so it will utterly take apart some lists and do less well against others. It will utterly take apart 80% of lists out there, however.

Not to mention 50 fearless T6 wounds with a 3+ save (4+ ruin cover if I get Wave Serpent Downed). I rarely take more than 20 T5 wounds in my Ravenwing, I imagine T6 50 wounds is out of reach of most armies in seven turns.

ansacs wrote:I have been thinking of a similar list.

The biggest problem is fliers lists as you only have brightlances to deal with them. You will average ~3 hits per turn at full strength against flyers and half of those will fail to even glance. So against necrons you will have to hold the objectives all game while they have free reign to attack your positions at will. Against triple helldrake CSM lists you will have a hellish time as the vector strikes will pop ~2 wavserpents a turn and kill ~5 of the wraithguard a turn with little to no ability in your list to stop them. If you can get enough of them spread out wide enough you might be able to hold the objectives though and you should be able to eliminate the troops in such a list. Still having no way to do anything against an entire class of opponent is never a good sign. I recommend drop a serpent/wraith unit and add 2 crimson hunters.

@DexKivuli
The spiritseer attaches to a wraithguard unit in a serpent.

Against Necrons I'd just hit their small ground presence with a turn two flame alpha-strike and then camp the objectives with WG while they ineffectually plink me with their Tesla. If any Warriors come out to play they die horrible burning deaths ala the ending of Terminator 2. The Flyers are an annoyance, but I have the mobility to counter theirs and tougher troops to boot. Triple Helldrake lists aren't really optimal; double dragon with DP or Necrons is stronger. Again, ignore the flyers

Helldrakes are of course strong against MEQ but Wraithguard aren't MEQ. They only get wounded on a 4+, and their footprint is much smaller so you can minimise flamer template damage. Fearless means it'll take two or three passes to fully wipe out a single unit, and you don't have that luxury if even a single Wave Serpent remains. I'd wager at least one or two of my 25 WG can outlast seven turns of Helldraking, and one or two is all you need to claim the objective.

DexKivuli wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
The biggest problem is fliers lists as you only have brightlances to deal with them. You will average ~3 hits per turn at full strength against flyers and half of those will fail to even glance... I recommend drop a serpent/wraith unit and add 2 crimson hunters.

And diving for jink....

I think th list needs a little more diversification, as the crimson hunters won't be enought to deal with flyer spam. If there is a necron army with lots of scythes, as well as annihilation barges, what do you shoot at?

To be honest, I'm not even sure how the list would handle Tau. Lots of missilesides behind a firewarrior wall (coupled with some evasive riptides) would also be a stretch...

I'd be willing to consider a strong AA option but sadly Crimson Hunter's aren't really, 10/10/10 is super weak on a flyer. Some Allied IG would be much better, but have no longevity past their codex release when Vendettas get punched in the turbines. The list handles Tau by turbo-boosting in their face on turn one, and flaming them from the wreckage of the Wave Serpents. Static gunline Tau is very vulnerable to massed flamers.

Remember my 20-page long thread about easy ways to handle Riptides? Yeah, Wraithserpents are their best counter at the moment. Guide/Prescience them and presto! Twin-linked flamers. One failed 5++ or 3++ = one dead Riptide.

Coyote81 wrote:I think you should trade all of those brightlances for scatterlasers. TL 4 shot SLs should get 1.33 hits each time you fire, thus causing the serpent shield to be TL as well, giving you D6+1 S7 shots at flyers that ignore cover. With 5 serpents, I'm sure you can down some a serious amount of Scythes a turn.

Half those units need to keep their D-cannons for TAC situations.

Not to mention TL-ing the Shuricannon. WS can actually put out a scary load of Str 6-7 firepower (A max of 14 TL Shots, holy crap! That's like AB broken.) Maybe you're right. Sub in Fuegan to tank-hunt and call it a day?
In this list they provide the only AT so they'll have to stay, I think.

Not entirely convinced that D-Cannon are better than D-Scythes. The only thing they're better at is shooting Vehicles... the ignores cover bit of the Scythes is far stronger when it comes to getting ID on things.

Peregrine wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Guard Blobs/Sabre Platforms can't really compete either.

Err, no. Even if you get first turn and move flat out an equal point value in LC Sabre guns is doing 1.15 glances a turn to each of the transports (and considerably more if you don't have that 3+ cover save), while STR 4 weapons do very little to a Sabre platoon spread out at maximum coherency. The meatshield blobs will keep you from getting in close enough to flame the guns right away (leaving you out in the open with expensive elite infantry), and even once you do wounding on 6s against a horde of extra wounds on the guns is not a very efficient way of killing them.

but they don't have enough shooting to take out 15+ T6 wounds after shooting the transports

They don't need to. Once the transports are dead the shooting units can JSJ away, leaving you out of flamer threat range.

Conversely the Sabre batteries don't do so hot against Wraithguard either, and aren't mobile enough to run away. You stand there with your Sabres shooting while I flame you with ID flamers (Hopefully guided?). Guarantee the WG will come out tops usually.

Well hopefully not all the WS will go down, if so the game will come down to a WS popping race. Even if one WG survives, however, the JSJ units are tau toast.

ansacs wrote:Actually MC are not a major threat as you can pink at them with each WS and ground each one then open up on it with the ID on 6s flamers...and may nurgle aid them if they are foolish enough to charge them (5d3=10, you should average almost 2 ID, autowounding, AP2 hits)

2 wraith hunters is 2 autokills against pretty much any of the flyers out there. Admittedly you should bring an autarch to keep them off until you need them but even still with some playing with staying at long range those flyers should be able to get 2-3 flyer kills. This is probably enough as your scoring troops in this list are murder.

Tau actually would be a fun fight. Just Turbo boost into their lines Turn 1 and exit the destroyed WS to then flamer them to oblivion. The riptides will be a pain but you do have the mobility edge to destroy the troops Turn 2.

Riptides will be a pain, but Scytheguard are the best troops in the game currently for killing them.

anonymou5 wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
Actually MC are not a major threat as you can pink at them with each WS and ground each one then open up on it with the ID on 6s flamers...and may nurgle aid them if they are foolish enough to charge them (5d3=10, you should average almost 2 ID, autowounding, AP2 hits)

2 wraith hunters is 2 autokills against pretty much any of the flyers out there. Admittedly you should bring an autarch to keep them off until you need them but even still with some playing with staying at long range those flyers should be able to get 2-3 flyer kills. This is probably enough as your scoring troops in this list are murder.

Tau actually would be a fun fight. Just Turbo boost into their lines Turn 1 and exit the destroyed WS to then flamer them to oblivion. The riptides will be a pain but you do have the mobility edge to destroy the troops Turn 2.

A good Tzeentch Flying circus has Fateweaver in it. You're not grounding anyone. And the Overwatch will go into Hounds or Seekers buffer with the Grimoire, the FMCs will come in after (if they even assault, enfeeble plus flickering fire should be able to put down a small unit of Wraithguard, or just multiple vector strikes)

Everyone sees FMCs and thinks "assault" Then they get shot off the board. (or in my last game, Hallucinated off the board. Heh. Assault Termies do not tank hits from themselves very well)

Theorius wrote:Wave serpents are anti air....have you read the serpent shield yet people?

I agree make 1-2 scatter lasers for better anti air.

ansacs wrote:You know they just have to hit to force a grounding test. They do not have to wound or make you fail any saves.

Admittedly this needs some anti air I am not arguing that but FMC lists can be grounded by MSU shooting. Especially twin-linked weapons.

The wraithguard scyth units actually tank hits fairly well from themselves as they require a 5 to wound from their own strength and get their 3+ saves. Waste of warp points. Not that I am saying FMC psycher is a bad route against this list but it is no where near the one sided fight you think.

anonymou5 wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
You know they just have to hit to force a grounding test. They do not have to wound or make you fail any saves.

Admittedly this needs some anti air I am not arguing that but FMC lists can be grounded by MSU shooting. Especially twin-linked weapons.

The wraithguard scyth units actually tank hits fairly well from themselves as they require a 5 to wound from their own strength and get their 3+ saves. Waste of warp points. Not that I am saying FMC psycher is a bad route against this list but it is no where near the one sided fight you think.

I'm aware of how grounding tests work, haha. Fateweaver allows one reroll (of anything) per player turn. It almost always goes towards grounding tests. As such, a Tzeentch flying circus is extremely hard to ground (roughly an 11% chance to ground a FMC on a hit).

You are right on Hallucinate not being the answer, I just mentioned that as one of the various tools a Flying Circus can bring (although I'm sure it could still be annoying). Enfeeble plus Vector Strike should work pretty well. The ability to kill units in the movement phase is so powerful.

Like I said in the OP, Tzeentch Flying Circus is probably the strongest contender to this list, but they struggle hugely against vehicles, especially vehicles which can move fast and are AV12 side. Not to mention once downed the DPs are extremely susceptible to the ID flamers- even on the charge they stand a reasonable chance of getting ID'd. Better hope you roll lots of Iron Arm.

Powerguy wrote:Flier and flying MC heavy lists can deal with this pretty well, and it dies horribly to Drakes since the entire army is short ranged with 3+ saves. Anything with plenty of infantry units will also do fairly well, I expect Nids to take this build apart since you have no answer to the Flyrants, you aren't getting anywhere near the Tervigons in one piece and you will just get drowned in Gaunt bodies and taken down by poison. I also expect fast assault lists that use Spawn or Fleshhounds to do ok, since you aren't going to get through all those wounds before they hit you even if you do get a good flame + overwatch off.

The army has a 72" threat range. It is not short ranged. FMC lists are strong against MEQ, but WG aren't MEQ. I have extensive experience playing FMCs both with and against, and although they can be strong for the unprepared, they are far from invincible, with huge vulnerabilities to ID overwatch flamers. Tyranids are even worse off than Daemons, who at least get an invuln, if all else fails. All I need is a 6 to wound and your Flyrant/Tervigon/Carnifex/Trygon drops dead. No, you can't take FNP against Instant Death, either. Better hope you roll ones on Biomancy! I guarantee that 25 disembarking Scytheguard can kill X number of bubble-wrapping gribblies without breaking a sweat. Didn't you realise by now flame templates are the bane of all Tyranid creatures? Not to mention Nids really have no way of downing the Wave Serpents reliably. The Doom also won't be too effective against embarked troops who all happen to be LD10.

This is assuming the Daemon List can down a WS, which they will struggle to with all their ranged shooting tied up in Soulgrinders.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
One idea is to give every Scytheserpent a Conceal Warlock, so even when downed the WG get a tasty 2+ cover save in the ruin of their Wave Serpent (not to mention a 3+ Cover on the WS itself). On paper it sounds good, but it doesn't address the current meta threats hugely (i.e. drakes, markerlights) so might be a little superfluous. I'd much rather keep the 5 Scytheserpents than sacrifice one for LD8 locks.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

This is assuming the Daemon List can down a WS, which they will struggle to with all their ranged shooting tied up in Soulgrinders.

I more or less agree with everything you said, but the WS is still rear armor 10, right? Flickering Fire has no issues there...

How do you feel about forge world?

Two nightwings would deal with pretty much all your AA needs and a good deal of your AV needs. You could fit them both in for less than 1 wraith scyth unit.

anonymou5 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

This is assuming the Daemon List can down a WS, which they will struggle to with all their ranged shooting tied up in Soulgrinders.

I more or less agree with everything you said, but the WS is still rear armor 10, right? Flickering Fire has no issues there...

The Pink Horrors are never going to get there, but with FMCs rear armour shots are only possible turn 2, probably three, but most likely four. They can only swoop 24". Even then it's still a 5 to glance vs a 4+ or better cover save.

ansacs wrote:How do you feel about forge world?

Two nightwings would deal with pretty much all your AA needs and a good deal of your AV needs. You could fit them both in for less than 1 wraith scyth unit.

I love Forge World, it's the only reason I play 40k, but the Nightwing model is hideous and £70. I really do like the Crimson Hunter model though. If only they weren't so crap. In any case, I believe in the 100% philosophy; 100% of your army's points must be effective at all times, i.e no putting things in reserve. Ravenwing wins because you can bring 1500 points of pressure to bear on a single enemy unit. The same philosophy applies for this list- all the units contest, score, and have dual utility.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


The Pink Horrors are never going to get there, but with FMCs rear armour shots are only possible turn 2, probably three, but most likely four. They can only swoop 24". Even then it's still a 5 to glance vs a 4+ or better cover save.

Ignoring when they will get to rear armor, as that's obviously mission/map dependent. The average vector strike (2 hits at str 6 against AV12) does does .33 HP. The "average" flickering fire (4d6 = 14 shots at BS6) does 2.33 HP with a 19% chance of destroying. The "average" perfect timing + flickering fire (11 shots at BS6) does 3.67 HP with a 28.2% chance of explosion. A FMC has a great chance at killing a WS in one turn of shooting.

Of course, most of the Flying Circuses around here run either Hounds or Seekers with Grimoire support, who should have no issue with AV10 on their turn 1/2 charges. Which opens up the WG for vector strikes and psychic nonsense.

anonymou5 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


The Pink Horrors are never going to get there, but with FMCs rear armour shots are only possible turn 2, probably three, but most likely four. They can only swoop 24". Even then it's still a 5 to glance vs a 4+ or better cover save.

Ignoring when they will get to rear armor, as that's obviously mission/map dependent. The average vector strike (2 hits at str 6 against AV12) does does .33 HP. The "average" flickering fire (4d6 = 14 shots at BS6) does 2.33 HP with a 19% chance of destroying. The "average" perfect timing + flickering fire (11 shots at BS6) does 3.67 HP with a 28.2% chance of explosion. A FMC has a great chance at killing a WS in one turn of shooting.

Of course, most of the Flying Circuses around here run either Hounds or Seekers with Grimoire support, who should have no issue with AV10 on their turn 1/2 charges. Which opens up the WG for vector strikes and psychic nonsense.

Not entirely sure how the turn 1 charge happens, but rest assured the hounds/seekers will die a horrible flaming death. After that, the Daemon player is faced between landing and assaulting the WG (risking ID) or killing the Wave Serpents. From where that pans out is up to the Dice Gods because it's far from a foregone conclusion.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


The Pink Horrors are never going to get there, but with FMCs rear armour shots are only possible turn 2, probably three, but most likely four. They can only swoop 24". Even then it's still a 5 to glance vs a 4+ or better cover save.

Ignoring when they will get to rear armor, as that's obviously mission/map dependent. The average vector strike (2 hits at str 6 against AV12) does does .33 HP. The "average" flickering fire (4d6 = 14 shots at BS6) does 2.33 HP with a 19% chance of destroying. The "average" perfect timing + flickering fire (11 shots at BS6) does 3.67 HP with a 28.2% chance of explosion. A FMC has a great chance at killing a WS in one turn of shooting.

Of course, most of the Flying Circuses around here run either Hounds or Seekers with Grimoire support, who should have no issue with AV10 on their turn 1/2 charges. Which opens up the WG for vector strikes and psychic nonsense.

Not entirely sure how the turn 1 charge happens, but rest assured the hounds/seekers will die a horrible flaming death. After that, the Daemon player is faced between landing and assaulting the WG (risking ID) or killing the Wave Serpents. From where that pans out is up to the Dice Gods because it's far from a foregone conclusion.

I think you're overestimating your ability to overwatch everything to death. What happens if he charges with two units? Say the hounds and then the Daemon Prince? You only get to overwatch the first one.

Well, there is a way to deal with flyers. For this, I'd give the Serpent scatter laser and underslung shuricannon. Then laserlock and downed Serpent shield allows to fire a S7 A1+D6 weapon ignoring cover. This should be enough to damage or pop flyers.

One idea is to give every Scytheserpent a Conceal Warlock, so even when downed the WG get a tasty 2+ cover save in the ruin of their Wave Serpent (not to mention a 3+ Cover on the WS itself). On paper it sounds good, but it doesn't address the current meta threats hugely (i.e. drakes, markerlights) so might be a little superfluous. I'd much rather keep the 5 Scytheserpents than sacrifice one for LD8 locks.

No can do read the warlock entry in back of dex.

It sounds like it could do ok, its a little all or nothing list but against hordes you need to flame them first as if they pop your tanks and charge your troops they should be able to die them up for the game.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, there is a way to deal with flyers. For this, I'd give the Serpent scatter laser and underslung shuricannon. Then laserlock and downed Serpent shield allows to fire a S7 A1+D6 weapon ignoring cover. This should be enough to damage or pop flyers.

Against an Av11 flyer a serpent with this configuration will cause ~1.5 hull points to be removed. and roughly 0.75 pens. Assuming the scatters manage to hit tht is...

tedurur wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, there is a way to deal with flyers. For this, I'd give the Serpent scatter laser and underslung shuricannon. Then laserlock and downed Serpent shield allows to fire a S7 A1+D6 weapon ignoring cover. This should be enough to damage or pop flyers.

Against an Av11 flyer a serpent with this configuration will cause ~1.5 hull points to be removed. and roughly 0.75 pens. Assuming the scatters manage to hit tht is...

Indeed, the Serpents need to concentrate fire on the flyers. But this should not be a problem since flyers will arrive in turn 2 and the army can be accordingly repositioned in turn one.
For instance, we have a CSM player fielding 3 Helldrakes and 3 Maulerfiends. First turn, I'd concentrate fire on the Maulerfiends and in turn two, on the Helldrakes.

 wuestenfux wrote:

tedurur wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, there is a way to deal with flyers. For this, I'd give the Serpent scatter laser and underslung shuricannon. Then laserlock and downed Serpent shield allows to fire a S7 A1+D6 weapon ignoring cover. This should be enough to damage or pop flyers.

Against an Av11 flyer a serpent with this configuration will cause ~1.5 hull points to be removed. and roughly 0.75 pens. Assuming the scatters manage to hit tht is...

Indeed, the Serpents need to concentrate fire on the flyers. But this should not be a problem since flyers will arrive in turn 2 and the army can be accordingly repositioned in turn one.
For instance, we have a CSM player fielding 3 Helldrakes and 3 Maulerfiends. First turn, I'd concentrate fire on the Maulerfiends and in turn two, on the Helldrakes.

indeed, its actually very good.For instance, the Aegis Quad gun will remove ~1.77 hull points

I do like Wave Serpents, and the survivability of WG. I'm not sure that it can make up an entire army, but it probably does have a place. I think that 2 x WS is really nice as allies. Two nice tanks with hardy scoring units inside really gives armies like Tau (Or Dark Eldar hehe) some resiliency options.

I would probably vary up the equipment a bit myself. For the serpents, I like having a TL Scatter Laser + Shuriken Cannon as the weapons. 7 TL S6 shots is really nice against many targets, and you can use Wraithguard as anti-vehicle themselves if you don't use D-scythes. With that amount of shots, with at least 4 TL against flyers, even without skyfire you've got a reasonable chance to put damage on a Nightscythe. I haven't mathhammered this out yet, so if someone could do that that would be great.

I'd probably have at least one unit with just wraithcannons, and you put the spiritseer in that unit so you can use his curse-whatever to reroll some hits. This also saves you 50 points. Yes they don't have the stupid good overwatch, but if played well you'll just kill what's near enough to charge you, and then get back into your tank. The other unit(s) can have D-scythes.

So I don't think that every troop unit should be Wraith-troop, but Wave Serpent spam does seem viable, and with a variety of troops, including wraith guard (maybe even wraithblades) Eldar have a reasonable ability to make plays at objectives. In Eldar main, varying it up with Guardian Jetbikes + Warlock w/ Conceal gives you a lot of ability to either hold objectives with T6 fearless infantry, or to zoom onto them last turn with Eldar Jetbikes with 3+ armor and 2+ cover.

In fact, the list needs a bit more variety. This would allow you to react more effectively against different kinds of threats.
As said, Serpents with scatter laser, shuricannon and holofield would be more versatile.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


The Pink Horrors are never going to get there, but with FMCs rear armour shots are only possible turn 2, probably three, but most likely four. They can only swoop 24". Even then it's still a 5 to glance vs a 4+ or better cover save.

Ignoring when they will get to rear armor, as that's obviously mission/map dependent. The average vector strike (2 hits at str 6 against AV12) does does .33 HP. The "average" flickering fire (4d6 = 14 shots at BS6) does 2.33 HP with a 19% chance of destroying. The "average" perfect timing + flickering fire (11 shots at BS6) does 3.67 HP with a 28.2% chance of explosion. A FMC has a great chance at killing a WS in one turn of shooting.

Of course, most of the Flying Circuses around here run either Hounds or Seekers with Grimoire support, who should have no issue with AV10 on their turn 1/2 charges. Which opens up the WG for vector strikes and psychic nonsense.

Not entirely sure how the turn 1 charge happens, but rest assured the hounds/seekers will die a horrible flaming death. After that, the Daemon player is faced between landing and assaulting the WG (risking ID) or killing the Wave Serpents. From where that pans out is up to the Dice Gods because it's far from a foregone conclusion.

Hounds can turn 1 charge if Demons go second. 12 inch Scout redeployment plus 12 inch first turn move plus charge range (with Fleet). And good luck killing them all, that's up to 40 t4 wounds rocking a 3++ (Fateweaver puts the Grimoire at 89% odds I believe), or even a 2++ depending on what the LoC gets (or if running heralds instead of a LoC)

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion, just attempting to break down the match up. If I run pure Demons, it's Fateweaver, LoC, a mix of Troops, 18-20 Hounds, and two DPs (usually one rolling Telepathy and one on Biomancy, one holds the Grimoire and one takes the Portaglyph), it's a really nasty and fast build, with a lot of the Demon randomness removed from the equation. It gets cheeiser, but less terrifying if you drop the LoC for three Heralds of Tzeentsch (or two and a herald of Khorne on a Juggernaut). Either way, the Hounds are going to drop a couple of WSs (how many depends entirely on how spread out they are) on turn 2. Turn 3 the remaining Hounds can charge the WG to eat the overwatch (if I decide to charge with the FMCs), or hunt the rest of the WSs and let either enfeeble/Vector Strike and/or Bolt of Change/Change Blast power go to work on the WG. Later turns Plaguebearers/Demoneettes/etc can be used to eat overwatch if assault is necessary. I guess my point is, there is no reason a Fateweaver build should ever have a FMC eating an ID template.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Necron ranged weaponry in Wraithwing will struggle to kill WG (T6, 2 Wounds, 3+).

The Spiritseer will go in one of the Wave Serpents to give it Shrouded (2+ cover save!)

Wraithguard only have 1 wound.

No Runes of Battle power can be used on a Wave serpent to give it Shrouded.

Well, a Serpent army can redeploy quickly making a first turn charge of the Hounds unlikely. But you're, Hounds are a big threat. Concentrating fire on the Hounds should decimate them quickly.