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 Zweischneid wrote:
Mat Wards fluff works (as it always does) because he puts the individuals (heroes, villains, whatever) front and centre.

Mat Wards tells you the story of Iyanden by telling you the story of the fights, noble deeds, petty feuds, triumphs and defeats of a set of characters... Yriel, Farseer Kelmon, Iyanna Arienal, etc..

It's the same reason the Horus Heresy is such a fan-favourite (and so much better than "the great Space Marine civil war"). It tells incisive "historic" events through the trials and decisions of individuals, larger-than-life-perhaps, but relateable.

That is something the other writers, first among them Phail Kelly with his mind-numbingly dull "history-book-style" of writing have yet to realize.

That is why Ward is the best Codex writer when it comes to fluff. Always has been; (most likely) always will be.

I just threw up in my mouth a little. I couldn't disagree more. Phil Kelly's books actually give a sweeping view of the army and race in question. Mat Ward makes up nonsense and hammers the same three notes over and over. No contest, Phil Kelly is the superior writer.

For the people reacting positively to the fluff in this new book, how much of a problem do you have with the retcon of Iyanden's preparations or lack thereof for the tyranid invasion?

 ph34r wrote:
For the people reacting positively to the fluff in this new book, how much of a problem do you have with the retcon of Iyanden's preparations or lack thereof for the tyranid invasion?

What ret-con. The 4th Edition book basically says Iyanden got licked by the Nids because they were slow-pokes who couldn't fly their ship out of the way fast enough.

The new Iyanden book expands upon this and actually - for the first time - provides a reason why they lingered.

Eldar Codex 4th (Phil Kelly) wrote:
Once the largest and most populous of the craftworlds, Iyanden has been reduced to a shadow of its former glory in a bitter war with the Tyranid race. It was an attack by the Tyranid hive fleet known as Kraken that rang the death knell for the craftworld. Iyanden was too slow to outrun the Tyranid invasion and was all but destroyed. Thousands upon thousands of its warriors fell in battle against the Great Devourer. On the verge of utter defeat, Iyanden was saved from extermination by the return of Prince Yriel and his Eldritch Raiders.

Eldar Codex 6th (Phil Kelly) wrote:
Once the largest and most populous of all the craftworlds, Iyanden has been reduced to a shadow of its former glory in a bitter war with the Tyranids. Thousands upon thousands of its noble warriors fell in battle against the Great Devourer. On the verge of utter defeat, Iyanden was saved from extermination by the return of Prince Yriel and his Eldritch Raiders.

Codex Iyanden (Mat Ward) wrote:
Whilst Ethrael delayed the Tyranids as best he could, Kelmon called together the Eldar of Iyanden in the Place of Answering and warned them of the impending Tyranid assault. Too many errors of judgement, he deemed, lay on the path behind him. [...]

He had cast the runes again and again, and always the runes for pride, doom and salvation spiralled about Asuryan. The pride, he at last perceived, was his and his alone. Better that Iyanden move with one will and one mind in its darkest hour. [...]

So it was that Kelmon, in his moment of self-doubt, compounded Iyanden's danger a hundredfold. [...]

From the bridge of the Flame of Asuryan, Yriel looked upon the ruin of Iyanden and knew only anger; at Kelmon for not contacting him sooner and at Ethrael for his failure to protect the craftworld, but the better part of his rage Yriel spared only for himself. He should have been here; he would have been here but for the monstrous pride that had driven him away. [...]

Like the burning spear of Khaine, Yriel's forces tore through Hive Fleet Kraken's blockade and ripped the heart out of the attacking swarm.

yeah,
From the black library thread. Codex Eldar is out on android kindle etc...
http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/codex-eldar.html


And it's cheaper that iBooks and Hardback.


This could probably use it's own news thread!?

Panic...

I didn't know stuff was now becoming available in other than I Pad. Good stuff.

yeah,
No one was!
That's why i was thinking this could do with it's own thread?

Panic...

Sorry dude but Phil Kelly is the better writer by far. Ward might give more fluff but that does not make up for his repetitious mind numbing names. Ward might have the upper hand writing short story's but a codex should be an overview of the race and game mechanics. I need a text book not the Tales of the super awesome Yriel and his burning spear.

 Zweischneid wrote:

That is why Ward is the best Codex writer when it comes to fluff. Always has been; (most likely) always will be.

Sig worthy ammunition for the next inevitable Ward Hate Thread!

 Zweischneid wrote:
Mat Wards fluff works (as it always does) because he puts the individuals (heroes, villains, whatever) front and centre.

*SNIP*

That is why Ward is the best Codex writer when it comes to fluff. Always has been; (most likely) always will be.

Wow... ok... that one comes off my list of stuff I never thought I'd read... right under "wind tunnel lemartes and pumbagore are my favorite models!". I don't particularly have an issue with his fluff but rather view it at geared towards exciting 12 year olds with over the top even for 40k tales in order for them to get the proper $25 finecast miniature. It works for its stated purpose but I personally find it about as exciting and well written as a power rangers episode script.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Panic:

Interesting.. thanks for posting the 40k stuff on the android market place. I'll have to take a peek at that on my kindle tonight. I suspect it may be cheaper on android simply because there tends to be more piracy on android (although it exists in droves on both).

Nocturnus wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Anyway, I did receive my copy today (technically yesterday) and IMO it will be worth the wait for you guys if you're into Iyanden fluff. From what I've read so far, it's pretty engaging. It fleshes them out a lot, listing background material and heraldry for various houses of Iyanden among other things.

Except, like all things Mat Ward touches, they destroyed the fluff/background.

Nah, the fluff in the Iyanden book is quite enjoyable.

I'm assuming the Android versions are cheaper because they don't have the interactive bits like the 360° model views or the rule pop-ups.

Also (as has been pointed out elsewhere) Apple takes 30% off the top for iTunes sales so GW's take home will be about the same for both versions

 Panic wrote:

And it's cheaper that iBooks and Hardback.
Panic...

The humorous thing is that the description on BL's website is that this ebook format is great on iPads Perhaps the 10 GBP price bump is Apple's cut?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Panic wrote:

And it's cheaper that iBooks and Hardback.
Panic...

The humorous thing is that the description on BL's website is that this ebook format is great on iPads Perhaps the 10 GBP price bump is Apple's cut?

Considering Apple takes 30% it seems likely, no?

Sweet gak of Gygax! A price reduction??? The End Times are a upon us! REPENT!

 Shandara wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Panic wrote:

And it's cheaper that iBooks and Hardback.
Panic...

The humorous thing is that the description on BL's website is that this ebook format is great on iPads Perhaps the 10 GBP price bump is Apple's cut?

Considering Apple takes 30% it seems likely, no?

It does seem likely, and I had no experience with Apple's cut considering 37 seconds elapsed between my post and the post before mine in which Apple's cut was revealed. I don't deal with iBook, and try not to deal with the iTunes store (except to grab podcasts), so I had no idea what Apple's cut was until 5 seconds after I posted my post, and saw the post that occurred 42 seconds prior to me reading it...

I must admit after reading the Iyanden supplement that I was pleasantly surprised as it was far better than I had been dreading after finding out Ward had been writing the fluff. It is much better than expected though there are still some flaws and points of critique.

There are elements in the timeline that actually are in reference to events and timelines in the Tau Codex and Tyranid Codex. The dates even match upon checking. There are some attempts to touch up and explain the bits of Eldar defeats that have appeared in other codices like the Tyranid Codex and the main rulebook such as Idharae Craftworld falling to a single Space Marine chapter. For example, though the Avatar still falls to a dozen Carnifexes when Kraken attacks, it takes out 3 of them first. Idharae Craftworld is also described as suffering grievous losses in defeating Hive Fleet Naga, presumably explaining why then it could be destroyed later.

The preparations on Iyanden for the assault are partially lifted from the old Doom of the Eldar game, and the Eldar always only had a few weeks to prepare before Kraken hit. Farseer Kelmon (a character from many years ago) is given significant limelight though he comes off as a bit of a caricature in the cardboard "intolerant conservative old man" role. A pity they didn't deal with the other Iyanden character from ages ago, Warlock Karhedron (from the 2nd edition Epic and 2nd edition Eldar Codex days). It is also a pity that the bit from Maugan Ra's WD article from the Eye of Terror campaign days was not integrated (Maugan Ra was written to have arrived on Iyanden in 992.M41 with a bodyguard of 100 Dark Reapers and to have fought in the battle against Kraken). It is also unfortunate that there was no reference to Kelmon's successful prediction (as depicted in 2nd edition Epic and the 2nd edition Codex Imperialis) leading ultimately to a battle between Iyanden and a Keeper of Secrets that saw the Avatar defeat the Keeper of Secrets.

There is also a nugget of information relating to the Shining Spears, namely the name of their Phoenix Lord: Drastanta, the Tempest of Starlight along with the weapon of this Phoenix Lord.

The introduction of all these Houses and retconning of Iyanden to be one of the first Craftworlds to leave the Empire I'm neutral on. On one hand it allows for more variety in Eldar background, but some of the houses are rather stereotypical with some names rather poorly chosen (House of Divinesh that spends its time scrying ). It also leaves open the issue then of why Iyanden isn't looked down upon by other Craftworlds for being barbaric since that is how Saim-hann is treated and it is also described as one of the first Craftworlds to leave the old Eldar empire.

As for the flaws, there are several but not extremely rage worthy. First off is the stylistic wording. Ward uses certain turns of phrases excessively in an attempt to sound epic such as "ever was blah blah" or "they had ever been..." but it is noticeable and repetitive. The second point is that Ward doesn't really give much screen time to Iyanden's glory days which I think should have had more dealt with considering that Iyanden's tale is said in the supplement to parallel the Eldar empire and Fall. The alliance with Biel-Tan has some discrepancies considering that the alliance was described to have faded by about M34 yet Biel-Tan also is shown aiding and cooperating heavily with Iyanden in M41. There are also some scale discrepancies with the size of Yriel and Iyanden's fleet. Yriel's Eldritch Raiders have in the past been described as one of the largest and most successful corsair bands, yet is shown in the supplement to have about 100 ships. This conflicts with Imperial Armour 12 which says the Void Dragon corsair band is estimated to have 3,500 ships. The artwork for Yriel's flagship Flame of Asuryan is also a discrepancy since it shows a BFG Void Stalker battleship as opposed to the BFG Flame of Asuryan ship which had an actual model. The other narrative flaw spotted is the lack of explanation for Yriel's willingness to launch boarding actions against targets that are going to be destroyed anyway, such as when he boards the Chaos flagship to duel with the Chaos Lord instead of just blasting the flagship (which was what he had done in an earlier battle to an earlier Chaos flagship). I suppose this could be chalked up to GW and Ward's desire to play up "heroic fights" between the leaders rather than the more abstract at a distance death of starship combat.

Overall it seems that Ward at least did some research of existing background instead of running completely roughshod over whatever came before. He also at least appears to try to balance things out from before by showing the Eldar handing out several defeats to Space Marines. While some might say the rules and crunch are light, those would be eventually obsoleted by the next edition anyway. The bulk of the book is fluff background and that is a good thing considering the entirety of background for most Craftworlds was little more than a paragraph before the Craftworld Eldar Codex in 3rd edition, and even then that only made things 1 page per Craftworld.

@Iracundus

Honestly I think you can explain the BFG and Epic descrepency by the fact GW has abandoned those systems and are slowly moving, rewriting, and retconning away the associated fluff. I mean the 13th black crusade has not happened in the current timespace.

Also I think the boarding action against the Chaos Lord by Yriel is easily understood by him being one cocky SOB and having his head where the sun don't shine.

The Maugan Ra fluff that would have been nice to include was describing his aid to Iyanden when it was attacked by Hive Fleet Kraken. The WD article was during the Eye of Terror campaign but it described Maugan Ra's past actions.

The relevant part is reproduced below:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/531298.page

It would have been nice for the supplement to waste less page space on photos of Eldar units we have seen already in the main Codex in favor of more fluff.

I've just finished reading most of it, and I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised and pleased. The fluff was welcome as the main codex was somewhat fluff-light. It also bodes well for further Craftworld supplements (which I would have little or no hesitation in buying after this), I think a Saim-Hann one in particular would be a blast.

 battlematt wrote:
Sorry dude but Phil Kelly is the better writer by far. Ward might give more fluff but that does not make up for his repetitious mind numbing names.

Wolf McWolfson called and wondered if you'd forgotten him. Seriously, no one can one-up Phil Kelly in the "silly names" department.

I was a bit dissapointed at what I saw in the game store copy. For the money it costs, there seems only about two pages of mechanics and items with the rest being fluff.
About a half hour with the book gives someone all they need to create and run an Iyanden force.

 Zweischneid wrote:

That is why Ward is the best Codex writer when it comes to fluff. Always has been; (most likely) always will be.

Seeing as how I kinda like Sisters of Battle, and knowing how Ward has treated them in his fluff, I feel obliged to disagree with you and insist that Ward is a misogynistic prick and needs to stop writing books.

Anyway, I noticed Codex: Iyanden still isn't available on GW's website. Was it seriously a limited release? What's the point of doing that?

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

That is why Ward is the best Codex writer when it comes to fluff. Always has been; (most likely) always will be.

Seeing as how I kinda like Sisters of Battle, and knowing how Ward has treated them in his fluff, I feel obliged to disagree with you and insist that Ward is a misogynistic prick and needs to stop writing books.

Just sayin', he wrote the fluff in Codex: Sisters of Battle, which isn't complete bull.

On a second note, how is he misogynistic? If you're referring to the Bloodtide part, the concept of virgin sacrifices giving supernatural powers is one of the oldest tropes in history.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

That is why Ward is the best Codex writer when it comes to fluff. Always has been; (most likely) always will be.

Seeing as how I kinda like Sisters of Battle, and knowing how Ward has treated them in his fluff, I feel obliged to disagree with you and insist that Ward is a misogynistic prick and needs to stop writing books.

How did Ward ever "treat" Sisters in the fluff that is different from .. for example ... Kelly's "treatment" of them in ... for example ... the Space Wolves Codex?

And as Almighty Walrus notes (assuming you're talking Bloodtide), Ward at least made the effort to cast a story in historic/mythological concepts, where's Kelly just went "rawr, No Sista's on Fenris, let's slaughter the peacefully visiting representatives of the Imperium before they realize what's happenin'".

I don't much like that bit of fluff in the SW codex, either, but at least with the Space Wolves it's not entirely unexpected. They're the most divergent of all the Space Marine chapters and have a reputation for being the most savage, barbaric, wild, etc. and they're also the most likely to give the finger to the Imperium's bureaucracy. If you're talking about what I think you are then it was the Ecclesiarchy that showed up first, which if I'm not mistaken is just the general church of the Imperium, not specifically the Sisters which are their military arm. The Space Wolves owe allegiance to the Emperor and don't much care for the High Lords of Terra that rule in his stead, and expectedly told them to feth off when they came poking their noses around. After that they came back, this time with three orders of Sisters, and it doesn't really go into too much detail, it just says war raged on for a few weeks before the Ecclesiarchy gave up and left them be.

Like I said, I'm not much a fan of Phil Kelly anyway, and that whole bit just comes off as being really stupid, even if they are the Space Wolves, but it's not exactly comparable to Mat Ward's going into grisly detail about how the Grey Knights slaughtered each and every one of the innocent Sisters that were still loyal to the Emperor and anointed themselves with their blood. It's also even more fethed up because it's the Grey Knights doing this: "incorruptible", the "purest of the pure", the ones who were charged with defending humanity from the threat of daemons, not mowing them down and using their flesh and blood as a tool so they can kill daemons harder. And you can praise him for finding inspiration in mythological concepts or whatever, but it doesn't make a whole lot of fething sense in this context because the Grey Knights are already supposed to have plenty of protection against corruption, in their minds, bodies, and the armor and weapons they bring to bear. If any of those protective wards and what have you were worth a single damn they should have been just fine against the Bloodtide. People have tried to justify it but I still maintain that their sacrifice was completely unnecessary, and it comes off more as Mat just wanting to make Sisters look weak, and eventually make martyrs out of them, to make the Grey Knights look even better. It honestly would have been better if he just had the Sisters killed "off-camera" and wrote that only the Grey Knights could save the planet in the end, since that's what he was ultimately trying to get across anyway, but the way he did it just rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, myself included.

But yeah, that's just me. I don't like his fluff, though honestly I can't judge his newest work since Iyanden is sold out, and I don't know if I'd be willing to gamble $50 on it anyway.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I don't much like that bit of fluff in the SW codex, either, but at least with the Space Wolves it's not entirely unexpected. They're the most divergent of all the Space Marine chapters and have a reputation for being the most savage, barbaric, wild, etc. and they're also the most likely to give the finger to the Imperium's bureaucracy.

Wait, so Grey Knights (and Inquisition) using a bloody "the-ends-justify-the-means" approach to ... well .. stopping a massive Daemonic Incursion is wrong, but Space Wolves slaughtering other servants of the Imperium, unprovoked I might add, because, hey, they've always been the slightly rebellious ones is "not entirely unexpected"?

Really?

I know Space Wolves are often a bit rebellious, but going all-out World Eaters on thousands of dutiful Imperial servants without any good reason whatsoever is going a bit beyond that. It sits rather badly with established 40K lore in ways that Grey Knights doing "whatever's necessary" in a suitably grimdark manner to, at least, actually fight Daemons, is not. Not by a long shot.

Hell, just one page or so before the Wolves slaughter Sisters for daring to fly too close to Fenris, they've invited a large entourage of Eldar to have a feast with them in their large hall of Fenris!

 Sidstyler wrote:
People have tried to justify it but I still maintain that their sacrifice was completely unnecessary, and it comes off more as Mat just wanting to make Sisters look weak, and eventually make martyrs out of them, to make the Grey Knights look even better. It honestly would have been better if he just had the Sisters killed "off-camera" and wrote that only the Grey Knights could save the planet in the end, since that's what he was ultimately trying to get across anyway, but the way he did it just rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, myself included.

I'll play along and post the obligatory "spiritual corruption =/= physical corruption" post here.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


I'll play along and post the obligatory "spiritual corruption =/= physical corruption" post here.

Neither actually.

Grey Knights are not "incorruptible" like some sort of magic "get-out-of-jail-free" card that makes any and all corruption bypass them without effect.

The Grey Knight Codex is quite explicit that many, infact most "almost-finished-Grey-Knights" don't pass the final test of the Ritual of Detestation, which tempts them with corruption.

The exact wording the Codex uses is: "In all the Chapter's long history, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to the lure of Chaos, and none shall do so now."

That doesn't preclude that the first Grey Knight may well fall to Chaos "tomorrow". The Bloodtide, over and above the actual event, is an important part of the fluff because it shows you why Grey Knights have so far avoided corruption. It shows the extreme lengths they are willing to go to in order to avoid corruption. That is why they are considered "incorruptible".

Without their extreme vigilance and willingness to avoid corruption at whatever it takes, Grey Knights aren't, per se, any more or less corruptible than anyone else in 40K.

Grey Knights are only "incorruptible" in the way that the 1972 Miami Dolphins were "unbeatable". Doesn't mean they didn't have to put in the effort.

 Zweischneid wrote:
I know Space Wolves are often a bit rebellious, but going all-out World Eaters on thousands of dutiful Imperial servants without any good reason whatsoever is going a bit beyond that.

Which is why I said it was a stupid bit of fluff, too. I dunno, maybe it just doesn't bother me as much because I've never been a very big fan of Space Wolves, or Space Marines in general. There's only one chapter I really like and I don't like them enough to build an army of them.

Speaking of going World Eaters, I'm pretty sure the Flesh Tearers did that very thing in Mat Ward's Blood Angels codex, tearing apart a bunch of Sisters in a blind frenzy when they ran out of enemies, so let's not pretend that when Mat does it it's always an "ends justify the means" approach. I understand they were supposed to have lost control and just started mindlessly killing everything but that's not necessarily a "good" reason, and I don't remember there being any consequence for it, either. I don't have the BA codex anymore but I think I'm remembering that right, anyway.

I don't know if I can properly explain why the Bloodtide fluff bothers me more than Phil's equally stupid "Ecclesiarchy comes to Fenris", but it just does. It's not necessarily because I'm biased, because I do think Mat Ward is better at writing rules than Phil Kelly...even though he has a bad habit of accidentally breaking the game now and then.

Zweischneid wrote:Hell, just one page or so before the Wolves slaughter Sisters for daring to fly too close to Fenris, they've invited a large entourage of Eldar to have a feast with them in their large hall of Fenris!

Maybe neither one should be allowed to write books anymore, actually.