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Does it have to be on the table at the beginning of the turn to use?

> I have Stealthsuits and Crisis suits in reserve. They both roll to come in turn 2. I outflank the scouts with the beacon and then deepstrike the Crisis within the 6 inch bubble safely.

I almost remember something in the BRB about everything being used having to be on the table at the beginning of the turn but I can't find it... Last edition?

what does the codex say?

It should say it in the codex. But yes it must be on the table before hand.

"Friendly units arriving by deep strike do not scatter as long as the first model is placed within 6" of a model with a homing beacon."

I know its RAW clearly but I wasn't sure if there was anything in the BRB that overrides the greyish area...

Upon further review the codex doesn't state it like a marines teleport homer does. So,perhaps,you don't need it on the table before hand

There's a problem with saying "it doesn't not give me permission" in that this is a game that gives permissions.

Check the deepstrike rules. I'd do it myself, but I don't have the rulebook on me.

I checked and it doesn't mention "no scatter" wargear at all. I have to assume the homing beacon rules give me permission to use it same turn. Just feels weird cuz I've used marines so much lately lol

android325 wrote:
I checked and it doesn't mention "no scatter" wargear at all. I have to assume the homing beacon rules give me permission to use it same turn. Just feels weird cuz I've used marines so much lately lol

I meant the rulebook, but I think you understood that.

From the look of things, they aren't trying to stop you from using it that way. But I must admit, this is kinda weird - usually you can't do it unless you're onfield.

P125 second paragraph in bold

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

To me this implies that the homing beacon cannot be used in the turn it appears, as all reserves are considered to arrive at the start of the turn.

I'd like to add this to the FAQ query. I would see it as it must be down before the turn begins as everything moves simo technically, but i see virtually if any use for it if i must deepstrike a unit in first to utilize it and hope to god they survive long enough.
And Tau have nothing that can take this upgrade capable of just running down the table. Everything is either a vehicle or moves 6" with thrust move, not enough to benefit from the noscatter.

One can hope this finds its way in the next FAQ update.

I am with the 'starts as soon as it is played' group.

The debate has been done before as to what the limitation means when it states 'must be used at the start of the turn' on page 125. It was the general consensus it was talking about abilities that are worded to clearly indicate they are used only at the beginning of the movement phase. If the ability or war-gear does not contain a line that they are used at the start of the movement phase, then it does not meet the requirement for the stated exception on page 125.

In short, passive abilities are already active regardless of when they are put on the table.

This is made more noticeable by the fact other similar wargear has additional exceptions within their entries to prevent use in the first turn they are placed on the field when it is clear this is to be the intent. Indeed, it is other homing beacons and the likes which highlight this the most by stating they can not be used the turn the model is placed on the board.

The problem is the Tau homing beacon is missing this exception, making it legal to use at the moment it is on the table.

Something they need to FAQ in, because a few gimmick tactics can be built around the recon drone. In particular, the locater beacon that has the same wording but allows outflanking without dice rolls. If used right, two of those even allow you to chose to flank from the enemies side of the table in pincer move. All cause you can use them from reserve instead of the probably intent of devil fishing the pathfinder team across.

Same question applies to daemon icons as well.

 Flinty wrote:
P125 second paragraph in bold

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

To me this implies that the homing beacon cannot be used in the turn it appears, as all reserves are considered to arrive at the start of the turn.

You are telling me that a homig beacon is an ability or a special rule? It seems like equipment to me.

I'm leaning towards it working. So does chaos ichon, with pretty funny results when paired with instrument of chaos.

Eldarcannon wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
P125 second paragraph in bold

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

To me this implies that the homing beacon cannot be used in the turn it appears, as all reserves are considered to arrive at the start of the turn.

You are telling me that a homig beacon is an ability or a special rule? It seems like equipment to me.

I'm leaning towards it working. So does chaos ichon, with pretty funny results when paired with instrument of chaos.

The homing beacon is a piece of equipment that gives the model a particular ability. If the equipment afforxed no ability then it wouldn't do anything at all.

@jinxdragon - maledictions and blessings are abilities used at the start of the movement phase and do not have specific wording saying that you can't use them when arriving from reserve, yet I have never seen anyone argue that they could be used as such. They fall under the general rule on p125. Similarly it was my understanding that reserve rolls and reserve unit arrival are all considered go be at the start of the movement phase, therefore that is when the homing beacon ability becomes activated and would also be covered by the general prohibition on p125.

In my understanding the homing beacon is just a piece of equipment with some particular rules. Rules are not abilities.

I have always tought that abilities resemble something a soldier (model) can do, equipment something he has brought to battlefield. Maybe is there somewhere in brb where abilities and equipment are defined? This could clear it up.

Indeed blessing and maledictions CAN'T be cast in the turn the psyker deepstrikes. Iirc a recent faq did give permission to cast blessings on units that came in that turn and that's it. My jetbike farseers are sad.

Flinty,

I have seen the argument brought up a few times because of a misunderstanding of that FAQ section I quoted. Because they used a malediction as an example with reserves as the other, some people came away thinking that maledictions could be cast after coming out of reserves. Every time I see that FAQ posted I try to remind people to take a good look over it, and see no where does it give permission for a psyker to use a 'start of movement phase' ability the turn they come out of reserves. It is simply informing the order of events is left up to the current player with those as examples.

 Flinty wrote:

Eldarcannon wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
P125 second paragraph in bold

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

To me this implies that the homing beacon cannot be used in the turn it appears, as all reserves are considered to arrive at the start of the turn.

You are telling me that a homig beacon is an ability or a special rule? It seems like equipment to me.

I'm leaning towards it working. So does chaos ichon, with pretty funny results when paired with instrument of chaos.

The homing beacon is a piece of equipment that gives the model a particular ability. If the equipment afforxed no ability then it wouldn't do anything at all.

But the homing beacon isn't an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn. It's always on. Abilities/special rules that must be used at the start of the turn always mention that they are used at the start of the turn.

If we follow your line of reasoning then no wargear can be used the turn it arrives like Multitrackers, all the other wargear.

 shock_at wrote:

But the homing beacon isn't an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn. It's always on. Abilities/special rules that must be used at the start of the turn always mention that they are used at the start of the turn.

If we follow your line of reasoning then no wargear can be used the turn it arrives like Multitrackers, all the other wargear.

Regarding the "start of turn" indicator in rule text, do teleport homers have this text too? I'm away from rulebooks just now.

Regardless while the homing beacon is "always on", when is it actually used? It performs no function, other than to allow deep striking Tau units to arrive on target with no scatter. Such units arrive at the start of the turn, and therefore that is when the homing beacon is "used". Therefore in my mind it falls under the general "start of turn" restriction on P125 as it does not have a specific rule removing this restriction.

Other bits of equipment, such as multi trackers, are not used at the start of the turn, but rather in the shooting phase, and therefore the P125 restriction does not apply.

With maybe two exceptions that I know of every reduce scatter wargear or special rule specifically state they must be on the table at the start of the turn or that the model cannot have come in from reserve that turn.

That rule was either forgotten or dropped from the latest batch of codexes.
Or maybe GW assumed the BRB provides restriction enough, disregarding how ridiculous RAW monkeys can get.

 HoverBoy wrote:
That rule was either forgotten or dropped from the latest batch of codexes.
Or maybe GW assumed the BRB provides restriction enough, disregarding how ridiculous RAW monkeys can get.

Chaos Daemons, Warlord Trait, Warp Beacon: ...do not scatter...provided he was on the table at the start of the turn.
Chaos Daemons, Icon of Chaos: If the first model...is placed...the unit attempting to Deep Strike does not scatter (no restriction on being on the table at the start of the turn).

Dark Angels, Teleport Homer: ...do not scatter...teleport homer that was already on the board at the start of the turn.
Dark Angels, Locator Beacon: ...do not scatter...locator beacon that was already on the board at the start of the turn.

3 things from new codices that all have the same requirement of being on the table at the start of the turn in order to be used. And one that does not.

Yup the last two codexes to have such a thing don't have the restriction, my statement is still correct.
Honestly i think it was forgotten, but that's just how i play my homing beacon(s) with no RAW backing.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Yup the last two codexes to have such a thing don't have the restriction, my statement is still correct.
Honestly i think it was forgotten, but that's just how i play my homing beacon(s) with no RAW backing.

Tau have one.
Dark Angels have none.
Chaos Daemons have one of each.

I really don't think it was forgotten as if it had been they would have eratta'd it.

And the other important thing to note is that Daemon Icon from the previous codex specifically had that rule in there (it had to be on the table at the start of the turn to be used), so its not likely that its failure to be included in the new codex is because of lazy copy-pasting. Someone willfully deleted that portion of the rule.


And I'll say the same thing I said in the Daemon Icon thread:

There is no timing involved in the Tau Homing Beacon rule...it is 'always on'. It only has use at the start of the turn because that's when units tend to arrive from reserve. But it is entirely possible for a special rule to exist that allows units to arrive from reserve in the middle of the turn (during the shooting phase or something) and the Homing Beacon would work then too...so the Homing Beacon (or a Chaos Icon) is NOT a case of a special rule that has the 'start of the turn' timing associated with it.

If you are someone that believes that ANY special rule or ability that happens to get used at the 'start of the turn', even if it doesn't have a specific 'timing' written into the ability/rule itself, then you have to realize what that interpretation really means: it means things like a units ability to re-roll failed saves can't be taken if they Deep Strike and fail some dangerous terrain tests when landing in DT (because that is being resolved at the 'start of the turn'), etc. It is an absurd position to try to hold.

The reality is, the rule on page 125 of the rulebook applies to rules which have a specific 'start of the turn' timing written in them. All other rules, including homing beacons, etc, are not bound by this rule which is why they *need* the proviso about not being able to be used on a turn they start off the table written into their rules.


So in short: The Tau Homing Beacon works just fine on the turn the unit arrives from reserve.

I don't agree that your example is a "ridiculous" position to hold. The rules interact in various ways and certain abilities are situational. Given the way the rules are written its possible for an ability to work in the shooting phase and not be relevant in another phase. A lot of RAW arguments on these boards are based around that type of precision in language. This one I think is murky. The intent isn't really clear enough in my view.

 Flinty wrote:
I don't agree that your example is a "ridiculous" position to hold. The rules interact in various ways and certain abilities are situational. Given the way the rules are written its possible for an ability to work in the shooting phase and not be relevant in another phase. A lot of RAW arguments on these boards are based around that type of precision in language. This one I think is murky. The intent isn't really clear enough in my view.

So you would say that a special rule/ability that allows a unit to move extra distance would not be allowed to be used while they are moving on from reserve (because that ability is being used at the 'start of the turn')?

And you would say that an ability/special rule that grants a unit a save (like an invulnerable save) or a re-roll to its save could not be used if the unit Deep Strikes and fails some armor saves due to dangerous terrain tests (because these rules/abilities are being used 'at the start of the turn' when the units are arriving from Reserve)?

Because these are exactly the same situation as a Tau Homing Beacon...they are special rules/abilities that do not have a specific timing associated with them (in their own rules) but instead are rules that are triggered by in-game circumstances.


Contrast that with actual rules and abilities that have a specific timing associated with them (i.e. rules that say they must be used at the start of the turn like blessings and maledictions)...do you really not think the rule on pg 125 of the rulebook is referring to these types of special rules/abilities and not just ANY special rule/ability that happens to get resolved at the start of the turn because of the circumstance of the game?


So what I'm saying is that there are basically two ways to interpret the rule on page 125 depending on your point of view. One of those two instances leads to absurd situations, like units not being able to use their saving throw re-rolls because those saves happen to be occurring at the 'start of the turn', while the other interpretation makes perfect logical sense (you can't use a rule/ability that has a specific timing of having to be used at the start of the turn if that unit is starting the turn off the table), so therefore one is clearly the 'correct' answer.

And that position that makes sense dictates that, yes indeed, Tau Homing Beacons and Chaos Daemon Icons can be used the same turn the unit arrives on the table.

To add some to this, would a positional relay work the same way?

Can my Stealth Suits outflank with a Positional Relay then have my Crisis Suits lead by Shadowsun come from the opponents board edge?

There is no restriction that the PR has to be on the board, but no permission either. Back to the original question, does this mean the Homing Beacon and Positional Relay have to behave the same way, either way you fall on the issue?

What about cover saves? An ability granted under certain circumstances, and denied under other circumstances (for instance against close combat attacks and weapons with the ignore cover usr). Is it not the same thing? An ability that is normally granted throughout the turn is denied because of the p125 rule. Arriving from reserve has a number of special issues as the model is coming into play and certain things are already set out and restricted, such as denying assaulting after arrival, dictating movement order of units and vehicle movement speed for deep striking units. Why is it "ridiculous" to assume that the p125 rule doesn't apply to all "normally on" abilities when arriving from reserve?

 Flinty wrote:
What about cover saves? An ability granted under certain circumstances, and denied under other circumstances (for instance against close combat attacks and weapons with the ignore cover usr). Is it not the same thing? An ability that is normally granted throughout the turn is denied because of the p125 rule. Arriving from reserve has a number of special issues as the model is coming into play and certain things are already set out and restricted, such as denying assaulting after arrival, dictating movement order of units and vehicle movement speed for deep striking units. Why is it "ridiculous" to assume that the p125 rule doesn't apply to all "normally on" abilities when arriving from reserve?

Because there exists in this game actual abilities that have a specific timing associated with them...that they have to be used at the start of the turn if they are going to be used. If you were to do a poll asking people whether they think the rule on page 125 refers to powers that have a specific 'start of the turn' timing included as part of their rules or whether they think that rule simply refers to ANY ability/special rule that happens to apply during the 'start of the turn' I think you'd find an overwhelming majority of people read this to be the former.

So yeah, if you want to try to deny that a Tau Homing Beacon/Positional Relay can't be used on the turn it arrives via pg 125, but if you do, then you have to accept where that logic leads, and I don't think you'll find many (if any) people willing to go down that route with you.

But without a solid indication of the intent of the writer the results of the poll would be meaningless. On the one hand the homing Beacon does not have the same wording specifically stating that it is used at the start of the turn, but it also does not have a specific exemption from the rule on p125. It wouldn't be the first time that the most onerous interpretation turned out to be the writers intention, or that chunks of text had been missed off rules only to be tidied up much later.