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Actually if I recall right An'ggrath rampaged through fodder and proceeded to be run through by an Inquisitor.

And lol, nope.

Ka'Bhanda being the mightiest Bloodthirster is all Games Workshop. Blood Angels codex. Check it.

Then why is Skarbrand said to be strongest before Tzeentch trolled Khorne?

There is this thing called past tense...

And it's said An'ggrath was made to be better than Skarbrand in every way.

Indeed, therein lies the inconsistency.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Indeed, therein lies the inconsistency.

Inconsistency in GW fluff! Surely not!

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Indeed, therein lies the inconsistency.

Maybe Tzeentch should troll Khorne again so he craps out another big bad bloodthirster. That'll settle the debate.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Ka'Bhanda being the mightiest Bloodthirster is all Games Workshop. Blood Angels codex. Check it.

The mightiest Bloodthirster from whose perspective? From the Chaos Daemons Codex?

Or the Matt Ward abomination that tries far too hard to nurse a broken Chapter over the loss of their beloved Primarch?

Fact of the matter is, more than one Bloodthister has claim to be 'the mightiest of Khornes' servants.

Of course they wouldn't write that the Blood Angels Primarch slew the weakest of all Bloodthirsters in their own Codex.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Von Chogg wrote:

Seems a little known fact that Draigo beat Mortarion with the aid of A LOT of paladins. And it was all of them vs Mortarion...

Nope.

"Alone and unaided" are the exact words used.

Yeah, but you cant bring draigo into direct comparisons based on fluff. I mean, he would be nearly at the emperor's level if we went by that.

Though the fluff is pretty freaking awesome.

 XT-1984 wrote:
Fact of the matter is, more than one Bloodthister has claim to be 'the mightiest of Khornes' servants.

Right, sort of like that thing I said.

Im sure the power of the various bloodthirsters and daemon prines/primarchs is random based on the gods whims. i mean they are chaos gods after all!

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
However, supposedly Doombread is the greatest of Khorne's servants, but was banished by the Emperor when he boarded the Vengeful Spirit (in old fluff at least).

Exactly nothing states that Doombreed is the greatest of Khorne's servants. Not Liber Chaotica, not the 2e Chaos codex, not the 4e Chaos Marine codex.

Both the Space Wolves 5e codex and The Emperor's Gift state that Angron is first of all Khorne's servants, and get this, the twelve Bloodthirsters are said to be the mightiest of their kind.

Daemon Primarchs are stronger than Greater Daemons, and I'd wage that is the case all of the time. Lorgar, back when he was still bitch!Lorgar, beat An'ggrath in martial combat.

The Emperor's Gift all but explicitly confirms that the Daemon Primarchs are the most powerful Daemons in existence: Angron is referred to as one of the six mightiest Daemons. There are six Daemon Primarchs. Oh yeah.

Not exactly. The Emperor's Gift does put Angron in the top 6 Daemons but the 4th ed CSM codex states that "There are a few older and even more powerful" Daemon Princes Out there. Considering what Lorgar did to get Angron transended. It makes sence for Khorne to grant Angron a ton of power. However Angron may be the exception that proves the rule in that the size of his 'Gift" to Khorne (thanks to Lorgar) was enough to create a little "Eye of Terror" (the Ruin storm) by his transformation.

Outdated fluff is outdated.

Also, it's stupid. The notion that beings whom were more powerful than the vast majority of Daemonkind not being the mightiest once ascended is insanity.

The Warp is ever-changing. The Gods themselves are constantly in flux, sometimes Tzeench is in the ascendant, sometimes Khorne. Now, daemons being simply extensions of their relevant deity it seems fair to say that their power waxes and wanes with their masters'. When Sang fought Ka'Banda he may well have been the strongest, he may not be now however.

Angron is likely strongest of the daemons though, regardless of how awful that character has been since it's inception.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Outdated fluff is outdated.

Also, it's stupid. The notion that beings whom were more powerful than the vast majority of Daemonkind not being the mightiest once ascended is insanity.

Ya because its so unlike the Chaos Gods to play to the pride of the people they want to turn, right?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Outdated fluff is outdated.

Also, it's stupid. The notion that beings whom were more powerful than the vast majority of Daemonkind not being the mightiest once ascended is insanity.

... and exactly the sort of thing a Chaos God would do. It owns you, body and soul. It cares not one iota for your sense of "fairness". They're altering the deal... pray they do not alter it further.

There is literally no piece of fluff that states that becoming a Daemon made the Primarchs weaker in terms of personal power (Though maintaining that power in the materium is quite a bit more difficult).

Because that would have to be the case for there to be Daemons stronger than the Daemon Primarchs.

Lorgar bested the mightiest Bloodthirster of Khorne (depending on which sources you are reading, though in this source he was indeed depicted as such) in martial combat. He was the weakest of his brothers.

Chaos isn't as random as one might think. It's actually pretty predictable.

The Daemon Primarchs have done more for the Dark Gods than any of their servants, so they are rewarded thusly.

Although Angron is the only one to do much of anything in the last millenium. The others seem to be a bunch of lazy bums.

To be fair, Erebus may have just locked Lorgar in his tower.

What an ass.

If I recall correctly,

Magnus is stated to send his followers out to catch people he's deemed of interest. He's like, a sinister Yukari Yakumo or something. Not that the fluff writers ever actually did anything with that, which is a real shame.

Mortarion's planet is stated to be near the materium, so he can coordinate lots of death guard raids into real space. He's been rumoured to have led The Purge for a while, but that's as far as the fluff writers bothered with this.

Lorgar is meditating on the dark gods, whatever the hell that means. Presumably the gods have a use for this or else you'd think they would have punished him by now. I think it's been stated he's cast his mind in the warp and rose to the equivalent of a god of sorts, so maybe the reason he hasn't PHYSICALLY done anything is because he's mentally doing something. Like an actual god, really. Again, fluff writers have not actually expanded on this, infuriatingly enough. Only Dawn of War even kinda bothered remembering that Lorgar's technically still active and watching things.

Just because the fluff writers are too lazy to make many specific incidents for most of the primarchs doesn't mean they aren't canonically doing anything (except Lorgar, who canonically hasn't done anything tangible. Again, I'm pretty sure we're meant to realize he's doing something intangible instead. Oh, and Fulgrim, of whom officially no one's sure where the hell he is. If he's actually on the perfect planet of pleasure though, it's kinda no wonder why he doesn't leave it). It is exceedingly frustrating how few the specific incidents are if your name isn't Angron. Fluff writers seem unable to come up with anything beyond basic Khornate "KILL STUFF!" stuff.

In terms of specific incidents, Perturabo engineered the downfall of a forge world using nurgle infested orcs, and Mortarion ran into Draigo (and we all know how that went. *eye roll*). Magnus of course got his eye poked out twice when he bothered venturing out.

Magnus has actually made more forays into realspace than any of his Daemonic brothers. He's just more subtle than Angron.

Yea, truthfully, the only primarch who's canonically supposed to be hounding the Imperium yet is nearly completely ignored by fluff is Perturabo (who finally got something in that latest codex). Mortarion's usually just a footnote though.

(again, Fulgrim and Lorgar canonically are NOT hounding the Imperium at this moment I believe. Lorgar possibly because he has a higher calling)

If I recall correctly, there's a statement in the 6th Ed codex that "rumours" are the daemon primarchs have been spotted in real space to coincide with the time of ending? It's too bad GW doesn't advance the fluff more because they could up the armegeddon ante and have the Daemon primarchs descend on the Imperium, but the living loyalist primarchs (Roboute, Russ, Lion, Corax, Vulkan, and... um, maybe Dom? Pretty sure there's a sixth one to counteract the six daemon ones but I forget if it was Dom or someone else) return too in the Imperium's greatest moment of need just like prophesized. GW could make models and rules for the surviving six daemon primarchs and loyalist primarchs and make a good amount of money on that if they wanted to, I think, and the status quo of "There is only war!" and stagnant situation wouldn't really be disrupted because the loyolist primarchs would cancel out the daemon ones. Though I guess they need to milk the heresy versions of them for money first.

Guys, relax.


This whole thread is turning into a "Who is better: Chaos Space Marines or Chaos Daemons?"

And there really is no answer.
Every race has their fluff trump card on who is the most powerful. You can't really compare any two.

They are all pretty much "we are the best and you can't tell us otherwise"




That is until Tyranids come along and piss in the ball-pit with the whole "WE HAVE A SPACE SHIP THE SIZE OF YOUR GALAXY LOLOLOL" and ruin it for everyone.





Yeah Tyranids. You ruined it for me. I'm calling you out. That's why no one wants to ally with you. It's because you keep wanting to compare the size of your truck on monster wheels to other people's sedans.

So what no other race has a space ship the size of a galaxy? What are you trying to compensate for??

Well GK codex states that Ka Bandha is the greatest. Pretty sure the BA timeline mentions it too in reference to the event, so GW says it too. But the difference is that FW and GW write rules and sell models. An'ggrath and Skarbrand have rules, and models (or models to convert or proxy) so case closed. Models over BL when it comes to GW.

As for the original discussion personally I say they are equal or just under or over in cases. In my mind the Daemon pecking order is:

Non-Big 4 Daemons (ie, furies)
Nurglings
Lesser Daemons (Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Horros, Daemonettes)
Mounted Lessers and foot Heralds (Bloodcrushers, Plague Flies and Heralds for example)
Mounted or Chariot Heralds
Daemon Princes of varying degrees
Greater Daemons
GDs noted as being powerful (Fateweaver, other named in game characters) as well as specific individuals in novels with plot armour. Non-Daemonic Primarchs and a successful Abbaddon who went Daenon Prince go here too.
Daemon Primarchs and Daemon Lords (Ka Bandha may or may not fit depending on whether we accept little mentions of being greatest or by BL fluff).

Personally, I think Angron just edges out Angrath on pure ferocity and rage, and his beatstick tactic.

For Magnus and the Tzeentch guy I reckon the Lord for pure reason he is more experianced and active.

Between Mortarion and the Nurgle Lord I give it to the Lord with the influence of Draigo.

Finally, between Fulgrim and Slaanesh's guy/girl/guy-girl/other I go Fulgrim because in "The Primarchs"

Perturabo is a little different but I see him on par with Angrath and above Nurgle and Slaanesh Lords, but losing to Tzeentch's due to psychic power.

Lorgar I am a little miffed. Plot armour in one story put him above Angrath but I don't say on par with Angron. Maybe on par with Tzeentchy and Angrath but better than Nurgle and Slaanesh.

Models over BL when it comes to GW.

This is a policy stated absolutely nowhere.

 Deadshot wrote:
For Magnus and the Tzeentch guy I reckon the Lord for pure reason he is more experianced and active.

Experienced? Maybe.

Active? Aetaos'rau'keres almost never is summoned, because despite being the mightiest Lord of Change, he's oddly predictable. In that he harbingers the doom of whatever world he is summoned on.

Magnus on the other hand was almost constantly in realspace after the Heresy ended for a thousand years.

Finally, between Fulgrim and Slaanesh's guy/girl/guy-girl/other I go Fulgrim because in "The Primarchs"

Spoiler:

He banishes a GD that possessed him by sheer force of will

My mistake, haven't read Aurelian. From Fulgrim's view in that book its all him, but then again he would say that wouldn't he.

Fulgrim's a douchebag, yeah, lol.

 Psienesis wrote:

Models over BL when it comes to GW.

This is a policy stated absolutely nowhere.

Its not a policy but a mentality. Think about it, their target audience is roughly 10-12 and at that age they just want the best, and if the fluff leans towards Ka Bandha, who has no rules or model, they don't go for it. If it leans towards a Bloodthirster sans wings, or the FW Daemon Prince of Khorne or the massive Bloodthirsters models, which represent Anngrath and Skarbrand, both of which has rules, little Timmy asks where he can het a model and rules for the most awesome Bloodthirster ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
For Magnus and the Tzeentch guy I reckon the Lord for pure reason he is more experianced and active.

Experienced? Maybe.

Active? Aetaos'rau'keres almost never is summoned, because despite being the mightiest Lord of Change, he's oddly predictable. In that he harbingers the doom of whatever world he is summoned on.

Magnus on the other hand was almost constantly in realspace after the Heresy ended for a thousand
years.

Yeah, but Magnus stays locked up in his room reading his books, whereas Aetaos is still floating around plotting a moustache twirling.

Regarding Fulgrim, it's possible that he could have simply been saying that he banished the daemon himself in order to awe Lucius and the others. He spent most of the Primarchs story pretending to be possessed so that Lucius and the others would rise against him, so it could simply have been a power play to see who was loyal to him/the daemon and then amaze them with his whole 'I drove out my daemon single handedly' facade. On the other hand, I never really liked the possession angle for Fulgrim anyway.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Von Chogg wrote:

Seems a little known fact that Draigo beat Mortarion with the aid of A LOT of paladins. And it was all of them vs Mortarion...

Nope.

"Alone and unaided" are the exact words used.

Yeah, but you cant bring draigo into direct comparisons based on fluff. I mean, he would be nearly at the emperor's level if we went by that.

Hence why almost everyone hates Draigo's fluff.

Yeah, I don't see why people find it necessary to try to justify Draigo's terrible fluff.