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I played this one guy at a recent tournament, and at first the game seemed to go fine. He was slightly antisocial, but it didn't matter to me, room in this world for all types. Then he started to make little cheating maneuvers, none of which I felt were worthy of hanging my hat on. Four of his marines were killed by tesla shooting, I saw him remove three and hustle them away quickly. When I politely told him that he only removed three he got really cagey and said he had in fact removed four. I then pointed to the damaged tac squad and the three remaining models and reminded him I had killed 4 last turn, so there should only be two left. He then told me I didn't remember properly. I dropped it, I didn't want to be a TFG over a single model. But then he would do it some more, consistently rolling less saves than he should have, putting too many shots in the pool... etc. When I called him out for them he just claimed that I was wrong and kept rolling, I told him to slow down with his dice and he said he wouldn't for fear of time pressure. By this point I was a bit miffed. Then, in one of the last turns of the game, he moved his landraider up 12" to contest my objective (big guns never tire). We measured to see if it was in range, it was out. The son of a then claimed he had pushed his raider back with his tape measure then pushed it forward into contesting range.

I managed to win despite, but as you can imagine it was not a pleasant experience for me. None of the incidents were large enough for me to call over a TO or the like since they were so minor and he could easily just deny them. If it were a friendly game then obviously I would just not play him again, but in a tourney...

What would you have done?

There's no such thing as 'borderline' cheating. You are either cheating, or you are not. There's no wiggle room with regard to that.

And the answer first is to call someone one that, because people do forget, but clearly this guy was not. At that point, you call the TO.

 curran12 wrote:
There's no such thing as 'borderline' cheating. You are either cheating, or you are not. There's no wiggle room with regard to that.

And the answer first is to call someone one that, because people do forget, but clearly this guy was not. At that point, you call the TO.

And what do I tell him? "This guy rolled a dice too many several times!" "This guy claimed that he pushed his raider back with his tape measure but he actually didn't"

None of them seem very major separately...

You could tell them exactly what you've told us - especially if the guy knows he's been reported. Often the beady eyes of the TO are enough to stop any further shenanigans.

Just call the TO when the person cheats after being called on it. life is too short to waste it on cheaters.

If you do not believe the TO will believe you feel free to snap a picture with your camera phone of the dice rolls or board before and after any important actions. Informing the TO usually does it though as they will usually keep their eye on the game which stops the cheating.

Yeah, I wouldn't class removing the wrong number of casualties 'borderline' cheating.

I would be calling a judge over and explaining the situation so they can watch a couple of turns.

Call the TO or make him roll his dice in a box and make him let you count them. There's lots of ways, as a TO if there is someone being accused of cheating, I'd make them slow down allow the opponent to see what exactly their doing. If necessary watch myself.

Call him out and let the TO sort him out. Most organizers will most definitely not be amused by those sorts of actions.

The guy was cheating. There is "making a mistake" there is no "borderline cheating". By alerting the TO, it is their responsibility to decide what to do, give a warning, eject the guy, or eagle eye him next game.

This is the kind of thing that is cheating to me. Call the TO over and let them handle the situation to their judgement. Even if the TO decides to just watch him, the guy has to be ballsy to try and cheat with the TO down his neck.

Now, if it was more "innocent" mistakes like measurement things, I would just call him out on it. It's possible that was a legitimate mistake, but if he gets defensive chances are he knows that he did it wrongly to his advantage.

I've only ever had one bad tournament game, but it was very similar to this... the guy was anti-social and just a jerk all around, and he kept taking 7" moves and fudging his charge distances and messing around with the dice. I did go talk with the TO, let him know what was going on, and asked him to come and keep an eye on the game. This guy even tried to cheat in front of the TO!!! I swear he tried to take a 9" move to claim an objective or something like that. The TO told him to move the models back 3" and babysat the rest of the game.

I ended up winning and giving the guy the lowest possible points for sportsmanship. But, definitely, if you've got a guy who is consistently cheating, call the TO right away. There's no room for that garbage in games of toy soldiers.

In fact, OP, I have this weird feeling it may have been the same guy. You in the L.A. area, by any chance?

Grab your balls, open up a can of man, and call him out on it? It's a game with rules at a tournament I assume you paid money to enter. Holding people accountable not only assures you get you monies worth but also stops that person from doing it to others. It's not TFG to ensure people are playing by the rules. If you'd have lost that match it would have been your own fault for not holding him accountable.

Obviously be polite and tactful but always always squash such dishonesty when you see it, it helps all players who have to deal with cheaters.

One thing to consider that if you don't bring it up, it'll be that much harder for the next guy to prove the issue. If you mention that you suspect ungentlemanly behavior and the judge's take note, then the next game he plays the judges will be more inclined to believe in his opponent's complaints.

And really, letting people off the hook for these "minor" issues because it's too much of a hassle really just encourages this type of behavior.

Cheat back harder

Actually that's a pretty horrible idea. I honestly have to say that even if you personally don't feel like it's worth doing something over "little things", you're actually doing all your fellow tournament goers a disservice by not reporting behavior like that, since it makes the guy more likely to get away with it next time. If nothing else, at least let an official know after the game that you saw some pretty beardy behavior out of the guy and they might want to keep tabs on him.

Like someone said above, if the officials even just hear a general complaint like "this guy rolled all his dice really fast on his side of the table and I think I saw him fudge it a few times. I asked him to roll slower and in the open and he told me to bugger off." then they're more likely to believe any further accusations. Eventually it will catch up to them.

Of course, if you see something particularly outrageous (like the amazing teleporting land raider) and want a go at the guy then just stop the game right there and call an official over. Worst case scenario is that you both look like idiots to the TO, but at least if people keep reporting the other guy then they'll see your side.

D**k Punch Body Slam?

Or call the TO

How about reverse cheating?

I had a guy suggest I was cheating because my damn wound die fell off the base while i moved him! Gimme a break. It was like he was pre-emptively forming a good reason for losing that didn't invoilve him sucking.

Making matters worse, in his mind I had ONE wound left on a flipping Riptide... when in fact i count up, meaning I only HAD taken one wound! His wishful thinking from a turn before, maybe his brain saying "Oh good, hes down to one wound" turned into a pretty nasty altercation, and not even with him but his damn buddy who was the TO.

This resulted in some DAMN harsh words later.

So have you seen reverse cheating? where they dont cheat, they just use claims of it to cheat you? I almost hated it worse than straight up cheating like you're talking about.

Call a TO, seriously. I would of let it slide once(maybe it was a mistake?), the second time i'd call him on it, and the next time i'd get a TO involved.

All you'd have to say is exactly what you told us. "Hey i just called you over because he's been doing things wrong on purpose and denying it, can you guys just help me make sure im not going crazy here and can enjoy my game?"

Now they are watching him, now he should stop cheating. The Only issue you may have when calling out a cheater is getting a low sportsmanship grade from the guy, but feth it! Guy just needs a swift kick in the the head lol

 Jancoran wrote:

So have you seen reverse cheating? where they dont cheat, they just use claims of it to cheat you? I almost hated it worse than straight up cheating like you're talking about.

I stopped going to a gaming club because of it. Someone didn't know how WAAAGH! worked, (this was back in 5th edition, not that it matters other than Fleet was a bigger deal,) and when I couldn't explain it to him I agreed on a rolloff to settle things. I won the rolloff, and the game... and afterwards he went to the TO (who he was friends with) to complain. Result being, the TO ended up babysitting my entire next game, and gave some offhand advice (don't forget about this, etc,) that turned what should have been a tie into a loss for me. Which also turned 1st place into 2nd at the Tournament.
And then the store owner pulled me aside and said if I cheated again I'd get kicked out.
I stopped going and quit the game for about 6 months after that...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To the OP: Call him out on it if you think there's a problem. If he refuses to change things, that's when you call over the TO.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Someone didn't know how WAAAGH! worked, (this was back in 5th edition, not that it matters other than Fleet was a bigger deal,) and when I couldn't explain it to him I agreed on a rolloff to settle things.

Uh... what was confusing enough about Waaagh! that you needed to roll off on it?

Just call the TO over and don't feel awkward about doing it. If he is TFG don't feel embarrassed on calling him out on being a cheat. TO really don't look kindly on these sort of things you know.

 curran12 wrote:
There's no such thing as 'borderline' cheating. You are either cheating, or you are not. There's no wiggle room with regard to that..

So Sith can get a "little bit" pregnant or a "little bit" dead, I guess....

Sith never get a little bit dead or very much dead at all if Star Wars has taught me anything...

 insaniak wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Someone didn't know how WAAAGH! worked, (this was back in 5th edition, not that it matters other than Fleet was a bigger deal,) and when I couldn't explain it to him I agreed on a rolloff to settle things.

Uh... what was confusing enough about Waaagh! that you needed to roll off on it?

They thought I had to call it at the beginning of the turn, before I did anything, despite the codex clearly saying you could call it at any point.

So how is that confusing? If you show them the codex, and it states any point, it's no longer an issue.

I agree with most people here, this isn't borderline cheating. Not removing all the casualties is blatant cheating and something I would have made a fuss about.

 Super Ready wrote:
You could tell them exactly what you've told us - especially if the guy knows he's been reported. Often the beady eyes of the TO are enough to stop any further shenanigans.

This!

ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:What would you have done?

Not bothered showing up in the first place. The idea of "competing" in a dice game is rather silly to begin with, much less in a room full of people trying as hard as they can to win on the easy mode and resorting to vague cheating to achieve these ends. The last thing a pity party needs is drama. The last thing that an event that can't control its own attendees is validation by having more thereof.

I'd either stick to league play, or I'd take the tournaments you go to with the appropriate level of seriousness (that is, much less than you appear to be doing now).

I would have reported him from the get go, if only to stop him from doing it for the rest of the tournament, with the tiniest of chances to stop him from doing it ever again.

 insaniak wrote:

Uh... what was confusing enough about Waaagh! that you needed to roll off on it?

Who cares. Lol.

Definitely call the TO.

Even if single report like this (especially without proof) probably won't change much, the minute the second guy calls the TO about the same guy the spotlight will be on him.
The more attention on him, the less likely he's going to be cheating again.