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A Tab-V at Zweibrucken Air Base was mothballed due to, and I quote 'strange occurrences' most notably Dash 60's starting up or shutting down in and of themselves.

The USAF is not in the habit of abandoning hardened hangers and explaining it as 'strange occurrences' without running through a lot of other explanations and attempted solutions first. Particularly in mid 1980's when hardened facilities in Germany were rather important.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
A Tab-V at Zweibrucken Air Base was mothballed due to, and I quote 'strange occurrences' most notably Dash 60's starting up or shutting down in and of themselves.

The USAF is not in the habit of abandoning hardened hangers and explaining it as 'strange occurrences' without running through a lot of other explanations and attempted solutions first. Particularly in mid 1980's when hardened facilities in Germany were rather important.

Okay, and?

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that 'strange occurrences' without any details, context or background is supposed to make us believe in ghosts? Really?

Well planes starting up and shutting themselves down is terrifying and totally unexplainable.
Abandoning the base to ghosts was clearly the best choice.
I would have gone so far as to call in both Luigi, the Brother's Grim, the Catholic Inquisition and the Ghost Busters to form some kind of supernatural A-Team...
Frankly this is yet another example of the American Government's policy of supernatural apeasement which they try to cover up by claiming they don't exist. This is how Hitler came to power.
I should clarify, New Hitler.

When I shared my story they simple threw it away because of that sleep paralysis thing. Why is this? Isn't it odd that it only happened once? If it's some condition like you suggest wouldn't it happen more than once?

 poppa G wrote:
When I shared my story they simple threw it away because of that sleep paralysis thing. Why is this? Isn't it odd that it only happened once? If it's some condition like you suggest wouldn't it happen more than once?

Except it is known that sleep paralysis can happen only once in a lifetime. It is not a condition.

 curran12 wrote:


Okay, and?

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that 'strange occurrences' without any details, context or background is supposed to make us believe in ghosts? Really?

Not supposed to make you 'believe' anything. A short summery of the dash 60:

The A/M32A-60B Generator Set, commonly called the "dash 60 start cart," was a trailer-mounted power unit capable of providing AC and DC power for aircraft electrical systems as well as high volume air for starting aircraft engines. The U.S. Air Force and other branches of the military, as well as many allied nations around the world, used thousands of these units in several variants over the years. Many are still in use today. The McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom II was but one of the aircraft for which the unit was designed.

Powered by a gas-turbine engine that turned a maximum of 42,000 RPM, the A/M32A-60B generated precise 3-phase, 400-cycle power and produced 120 pounds of air pressure at 1,781 cubic feet per minute.

Not a piece of equipment you want to have just starting itself.

Base rotated several start carts through the hanger, all of them had the same issue regardless of history or maintenance.

The story, as it was told to me, was that the Canadian 427 Squadron, who had the base from it's completion until 1969 had a refueling accident in the hanger that the Tab V replaced. Previously, the site of Zweibruken AFB was a portion of the Sigfried Line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Line ), with several bunkers having been cleared before construction on the air base could commence,

Was it 'ghosts'? I have no idea. But something odd was going on, and the USAF apparently gave up trying to solve the problem.

I don't believe in ghosts and the supernatural. I have a friend who swears it's real, and any time the subject is brought up, he gets heated and defensive. He is also really easy to scare, citing these things.

 curran12 wrote:

 poppa G wrote:
When I shared my story they simple threw it away because of that sleep paralysis thing. Why is this? Isn't it odd that it only happened once? If it's some condition like you suggest wouldn't it happen more than once?

Except it is known that sleep paralysis can happen only once in a lifetime. It is not a condition.

Correct. I had more than one, but it was hardly a chronic thing...maybe 3 or 4 times in my lifetime? And not in like 20 years.

Something I left out earlier is that part of the experience is that you might feel like there's a presence -- possibly malevolent -- there with you. I had that with my first episode. So people aren't crazy for thinking it's something supernatural. But there's nothing there...it's just your brain fooling you.

I know it's not as sexy or interesting as "I encountered a ghost!" But there really is a medical reason for it, and it's pretty easy to identify sleep paralysis since people's experiences are generally very similar (and have been for centuries).

 -Loki- wrote:
Man you guys suck the fun out of this kind of thread.

Check the thread title, then.
Especially the "If not, why not." part of it.

The OP invited comments from BOTH sides. If he didn't then you might have a point. a
Since he did, your comment is the invalid one.

We can only perceive things that are in our home 4 dimensions (3 spacial+time). We can speculate beyond this, but without a way to measure or quantify these other dimensions (which theoretically exist), we can't say with any surety that they are any more real than Justin Bieber's fame.

If I had the time and money I would travel around the world playing out elaborate hoaxes about ghosts, UFOs and big foot type monsters. It would be so easy because people are gullible and local news producers are always looking for some cheesy story to fill on air time.

Then after about 20 years of winding people up I would confess on youtube or something.

Why? To get people to use critical thinking skills. Hopefully the next time someone BS's them they would think twice about it and others could learn from the poor fools being made an example of.

 purplefood wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

orkdestroyer1 wrote:
I live near the most haunted place in the UK...

Which is just as haunted as any other place as ghosts don't exist.

Hmmm...
Using that logic you could say everywhere is the most haunted place in the world...
That would be a great scam for tourists...

Yeah that's what I was getting to.

Some of my friends and one of my friend's parents were wannabe ghost hunters from that stupid syfy show.

I went with them to a number of old abandon hospitals and asylums in New York, Maryland and Pennsylvania.

Just like the skittish deer on tv, they run and jump from every noise.

Found the places more beautiful from a architectural stand point than scary.

Was more afraid of mangy rabid bums possibly living in there.

JWhex wrote:
If I had the time and money I would travel around the world playing out elaborate hoaxes about ghosts, UFOs and big foot type monsters. It would be so easy because people are gullible and local news producers are always looking for some cheesy story to fill on air time.

Then after about 20 years of winding people up I would confess on youtube or something.

Why? To get people to use critical thinking skills. Hopefully the next time someone BS's them they would think twice about it and others could learn from the poor fools being made an example of.

My money would be you getting caught on the first try. The majority of hoaxters are.

I'll say that the one incident that I've witnessed, I've had a hard time explaining. A 65 pound cast iron fireplace insert (big Victorian thing) sat up and walked across the floor to the middle of the room and then fell over (about ten feet). On it's own, In front of myself and four other people (including a police officer). I'll admit, I checked it for strings and/or magnets and got nothing, None of the electronics were damaged as would happen with a emf powerful enough to move this object. According to the USGS there were no minor quakes at the time, and nothing else in the room moved.

I don't know if it was 'ghosts' but it was certainly odd.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.166-7)

PredaKhaine wrote:
I've had sleep paralysis once.

The nearest I can get to describing it is try to imagine your arms are moving, without actually moving them. Now imagine really hard they're moving. Now wonder why you're still not moving.
I know I was dreaming still as I saw a critter (remember that 'hilarious' film?) run down the side of my bed.
Weirded me for about 30seconds, till I realised I'd just forgotten how to move

I've had it a few times in the past, and it would only ever end if I said (well shouted, any movement was like walking through a tarpit) the Our Father

 BaronIveagh wrote:

JWhex wrote:
If I had the time and money I would travel around the world playing out elaborate hoaxes about ghosts, UFOs and big foot type monsters. It would be so easy because people are gullible and local news producers are always looking for some cheesy story to fill on air time.

Then after about 20 years of winding people up I would confess on youtube or something.

Why? To get people to use critical thinking skills. Hopefully the next time someone BS's them they would think twice about it and others could learn from the poor fools being made an example of.

My money would be you getting caught on the first try. The majority of hoaxters are.

I'll say that the one incident that I've witnessed, I've had a hard time explaining. A 65 pound cast iron fireplace insert (big Victorian thing) sat up and walked across the floor to the middle of the room and then fell over (about ten feet). On it's own, In front of myself and four other people (including a police officer). I'll admit, I checked it for strings and/or magnets and got nothing, None of the electronics were damaged as would happen with a emf powerful enough to move this object. According to the USGS there were no minor quakes at the time, and nothing else in the room moved.

I don't know if it was 'ghosts' but it was certainly odd.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.166-7)

Well, I kind of doubt I would get caught by the people I am trying to fool, like I said I would do it if I had the time and money. We are not talking about fooling really smart and savvy people we are talking about people that want to believe the hoax is real!

 BaronIveagh wrote:

JWhex wrote:
If I had the time and money I would travel around the world playing out elaborate hoaxes about ghosts, UFOs and big foot type monsters. It would be so easy because people are gullible and local news producers are always looking for some cheesy story to fill on air time.

Then after about 20 years of winding people up I would confess on youtube or something.

Why? To get people to use critical thinking skills. Hopefully the next time someone BS's them they would think twice about it and others could learn from the poor fools being made an example of.

My money would be you getting caught on the first try. The majority of hoaxters are.

I'll say that the one incident that I've witnessed, I've had a hard time explaining. A 65 pound cast iron fireplace insert (big Victorian thing) sat up and walked across the floor to the middle of the room and then fell over (about ten feet). On it's own, In front of myself and four other people (including a police officer). I'll admit, I checked it for strings and/or magnets and got nothing, None of the electronics were damaged as would happen with a emf powerful enough to move this object. According to the USGS there were no minor quakes at the time, and nothing else in the room moved.

I don't know if it was 'ghosts' but it was certainly odd.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet (1.5.166-7)

I do remember one time Queen Victoria slapped my mother. There were over 100 witnesses, including 20 firemen.

Getting scared all good and proper. A good "Flight or Fight" mechanism be it Super Natural or real. Been a paratrooper for over seven...eight years..Manage to swallow my fear. Manage my fear...Remain calm and compose and act like its another day. Have to set the example

But when you come close to being killed....that's 26 layers glass and adhesive. Only had 3 windows "intact". So it sucks when your alone and it comes back at you because everything in life just gain perspective. The fear is worst when your trying to overcome the initial fear for you know in your mind how fast it can happen and what it would look like because now you KNOW. Think a MOD can leave this up for like 1-2 hrs before deleting the pic. That IED was aimed specifically at that height for that window.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looks a bit like Ultramar eh

Only ghost story I have isn't a ghost story at all. Don't believe in the stuff. I had been up for about 36 hours straight in high school working on a last minute paper. This was the first time I'd be up that long, and as such didn't realize I started to get hallucinations at that level of sleep deprivation (which I apparently do).

Anyway, the doors from my room to my brother's were open, and I looked through and saw someone in a grey shirt standing there. After freaking out, I built up the nerve to go through and take a look, only to find that it was a grey sweatshirt hanging off of some boxes that were stacked up in his room. The boxes were there because we'd be remodeling the attic, and it was the best place to store them in the meanwhile. I just didn't notice that he or someone had tossed a shirt there because I'd been too busy focusing on the paper

I felt foolish, because I could have sworn I actually saw someone there, but I guess my brain just filled in the rest of the form based upon the shape of the shirt. It proved to me a valuable point: there exists a potential explanation for every "paranormal" thing that occurs.

It's important to get enough sleep.

 MrDwhitey wrote:

I do remember one time Queen Victoria slapped my mother. There were over 100 witnesses, including 20 firemen.

In your (pathetic) effort to be snarky (please attend mandatory internet snark training, to be found at www.4chan.com) you clearly miss my point. Occasionally events take place which are not easily explained. These are uncommon, but they do happen. While this being the internet, and anyone saying anything is (correctly) subject to suspicion, unknown events are reported and filed every day by a variety of (in theory) reliable sources witnessed by men and women trained to observe and think critically. As Jihadin points out, no one wants to fill out the AAR that reads 'contact with supernatural entities' but the military has whole forests worth of paper of on duty personnel reporting strange and unusual events, so something clearly happened. Whether it was 'ghosts' or a previously unknown natural event (which as any scientist will tell you, the unknown is why scientists have careers still, as the universe likes to throw new things at us all the time) is itself unknown. Sadly, many 'scientists' do not investigate these events out of fear of losing credibility for 'ghost hunting' which leads to the same sort of myth as 'apes will rape any women you bring on an expedition to study them' (seriously, this was something they really thought at one point. Jane Goodall actually commented on that one, it was so prevalent when she started out).

Not investigating is every bit as much 'bad science' as what people like Ghost Hunters practice, it's just in the other direction.

Pity that sense of humor you got... I thought it was funny.

To deny the paranormal being a reality because you have no experience with it is foolish. Personally I have had some very strange things happen to me over the course of my life and to be honest I can't say some of them were not paranormal.

As an example when I was about 15 years old the home we were living in had this creepy ass dead bolted door at the end of our main hallway with no knob and my parents had lost the key to the door over a year before this incident. I had Just finished my nightly pre bed regimen and was coming out of my bathroom that was on the other end of the hallway opposite the creepy door and as I walked out and peered down the hall I could see the door was wide opened but the really fethed up part is that the deadbolt was still in the popped out locked position. I can't explain that for the life of me but I have to take it at face value and as far as I'm concerned it was a paranormal event seeing as my parents were just as befuddled as I was.

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
To deny the paranormal being a reality because you have no experience with it is foolish.

No, it really isn't.

To deny the paranormal being a reality because you have no experience with it is foolish.

Not debunking you. How does one know if one is experiencing or having a paranormal activity. For all we know its just the "wind" or play of "shadows". We take the world for granted and pretty much have everything explain to us by science. Its like Hounds of Baskitville (Holmes Season 3 needs to hurry the hell up) where Holmes racked his brains to figure out what he saw. How far would we go as individuals to try to reason/rationionlize/clarify what we saw. We pretty much chalk it up to "wind" or "shadows" and then we have second thoughts..........

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
To deny the paranormal being a reality because you have no experience with it is foolish.

No, it really isn't.

Why would it not be if you have had no past experiences with paranormal happenings. That's like saying I've never seen a condor so by default they do not exist.

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
To deny the paranormal being a reality because you have no experience with it is foolish.

No, it really isn't.

Why would it not be if you have had no past experiences with paranormal happenings. That's like saying I've never seen a condor so by default they do not exist.

Really?

Is this REALLY your case? Okay, I'll make this quick.

Because unlike ghosts, I can see proof that condors exist and people can reliably show me where condors are and provide steady, reliable evidence. Not "oh this one time I was in a house and something happened so it HAS to be a ghost" without any way for you to recreate it.

 Jihadin wrote:

To deny the paranormal being a reality because you have no experience with it is foolish.

Not debunking you. How does one know if one is experiencing or having a paranormal activity. For all we know its just the "wind" or play of "shadows". We take the world for granted and pretty much have everything explain to us by science. Its like Hounds of Baskitville (Holmes Season 3 needs to hurry the hell up) where Holmes racked his brains to figure out what he saw. How far would we go as individuals to try to reason/rationionlize/clarify what we saw. We pretty much chalk it up to "wind" or "shadows" and then we have second thoughts..........

I can see what you are saying and it is true that the human mind will try to rationalize almost anything strange as a natural phenomenon to stymie the encroaching fear of the unknown. But I'm pretty sure that the door was wide open and the deadbolt was snapped out in the lock position so it's hard to rationalize something such as that as a natural phenomenon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 curran12 wrote:

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
To deny the paranormal being a reality because you have no experience with it is foolish.

No, it really isn't.

Why would it not be if you have had no past experiences with paranormal happenings. That's like saying I've never seen a condor so by default they do not exist.

Really?

Is this REALLY your case? Okay, I'll make this quick.

Because unlike ghosts, I can see proof that condors exist and people can reliably show me where condors are and provide steady, reliable evidence. Not "oh this one time I was in a house and something happened so it HAS to be a ghost" without any way for you to recreate it.

But the response lacking any depth such a No, it really isn't is acceptable as a counter point.

 curran12 wrote:

Because unlike ghosts, I can see proof that condors exist and people can reliably show me where condors are and provide steady, reliable evidence. Not "oh this one time I was in a house and something happened so it HAS to be a ghost" without any way for you to recreate it.

And I'll toss in that there are entire fields of science where evidence is sketchy at best and perfect recreation of an event is impossible by nature.

It's called Quantum Mechanics. And hard evidence in that field can be rather hard to come by (even with multi-billion dollar particle smashers). Heisenberg and the Observer Effect tend to poop all over the idea of a controlled experiment in that one. Yet it's a respectable field of science.

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
But the response lacking any depth such a No, it really isn't is acceptable as a counter point.

Stating something is foolish without providing any reasons as to why is not worthy of a deep and insightful counter-point, especially since there is really nothing there to counter since such a statement - lacking any sort of back-up whatsoever - is itself without depth.

You said it's foolish, I said it wasn't, and that was all I could say since you declined to offer any reasoning behind your statement save a personal anecdote, and I'm going to go ahead and assume that it wasn't your intention to use the 'I believe I experienced X so X must be true, therefore everyone who doesn't believe in X is foolish.' argument.

Baron's right.
We can't explain it so it must be ghosts...