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Niteware wrote:
No. You are told to take 10%. If you took 5 models you have not complied as you have taken less than 10%. 6 is correct.

If you are told to take UP TO 10% of 51 models, 5 would be correct. Taking 6 is more than 10% so you have not complied with the rule. Specific beats general.

So you're saying that 51 * 0.10 = 6?
And somehow that makes sense, but 1999 * 0.25 = 500 does not make sense?

I must be a complete sado-masochist because I've read this entire thread. I've come to exactly one conclusion:

In the 10+ years I've been coming to Dakka, I cannot remember a longer or more vitriolic rules debate about anything that mattered less than this discussion.

Honestly. How many times will any of us run into a situation in WHFB where you see an odd points value like 1999 being used? I've bee playing WHFB since 1988, and I've never seen a game, league, or tournament use a points value that wasn't a multiple of 500.

Saldiven wrote:
I must be a complete sado-masochist because I've read this entire thread. I've come to exactly one conclusion:

In the 10+ years I've been coming to Dakka, I cannot remember a longer or more vitriolic rules debate about anything that mattered less than this discussion.

Honestly. How many times will any of us run into a situation in WHFB where you see an odd points value like 1999 being used? I've bee playing WHFB since 1988, and I've never seen a game, league, or tournament use a points value that wasn't a multiple of 500.

...and in the case that this happens, we now know that if you play at 1999, 25% are 499 (499.25, to be precise!) - so at least *something* good came out of it.

Anyway...this thread is absolutely hilarious. I'm following it since p1 and it's endlessly entertaining to see people go mad about their circle-argumentation Bonus points if you throw terms like "RAW", "RAI", and "MATH" around!

/e: Wooo, 10 pages!

6 isn't 10% of 51 in straight math. But this isn't an algebra class. We've already been instructed how to calculate it.

If you were told to take up to 10% of 51 it would still be rounded per the rule and would still be 6.

Up to 25% of 1999 is still 500. It is exactly. It is sorta. It is kind of. No matter what adverb you put before the calculation you still make the calculation, you don't just eyeball it or lick your finger and stick it up to the wind. And 25% of 1999 is 500. In the WHFB world a % of value is rounded up because of DTC.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Bonus points if you throw terms like "RAW", "RAI", and "MATH" around!

I now always read these in the voice of Mr. Torgue.

Up to 25% is different to 25%. That is why it includes the words "up to". They mean "bot more than". This means that you can't take more than 25%.

DTC tells you how ro reconcile the situation when you are told to do things that you can't do - such as remove 5.1 models or attack with 3.5 strength. It does not force you to break other rules.

This is what you're not getting.

You can take up to it.

But you still have to calculate "it." Which is the rule you're talking about. And when you calculate it, it's 500. So taking up to 500 is 500.

It isn't breaking a rule. You just don't seem to understand what rounding up means as explained in the rule DTC. If the points rules said don't round up that would be different. They do not say that.

The rules are exactly the same.

Up to, equal, less than % of [total] is still

% * [total] and then rounded up.

Niteware wrote:
Up to 25% is different to 25%. That is why it includes the words "up to". They mean "bot more than". This means that you can't take more than 25%.

DTC tells you how ro reconcile the situation when you are told to do things that you can't do - such as remove 5.1 models or attack with 3.5 strength. It does not force you to break other rules.

Or it says, anytime you divide. No mention of the other half of the stuff you're making up.

-Matt

Niteware wrote:Up to 25% is different to 25%. That is why it includes the words "up to". They mean "bot more than". This means that you can't take more than 25%.

DTC tells you how ro reconcile the situation when you are told to do things that you can't do - such as remove 5.1 models or attack with 3.5 strength. It does not force you to break other rules.

DukeRustfield wrote:This is what you're not getting.

You can take up to it.

But you still have to calculate "it." Which is the rule you're talking about. And when you calculate it, it's 500. So taking up to 500 is 500.

It isn't breaking a rule. You just don't seem to understand what rounding up means as explained in the rule DTC. If the points rules said don't round up that would be different. They do not say that.

The rules are exactly the same.

Up to, equal, less than % of [total] is still

% * [total] and then rounded up.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Niteware wrote:
Up to 25% is different to 25%. That is why it includes the words "up to". They mean "bot more than". This means that you can't take more than 25%.

DTC tells you how ro reconcile the situation when you are told to do things that you can't do - such as remove 5.1 models or attack with 3.5 strength. It does not force you to break other rules.

Or it says, anytime you divide. No mention of the other half of the stuff you're making up.

-Matt

These three posts are actually really good despite the pages of math behind them. I'm sure it has something to do with how short and to-the-point they are.

I really don't know where I stand on this issue.

The DTC rule is a different rule to the points rule. They are not sections of the aame rule.
Rounding to above 25% would hreak the point rule.
The ppoints rule does not ask you to divide, it sets a limit.
No rule forces you to go as close to that limit as you can.
So no rule forces you to break the 25% limit.

This means that you are actually working out "the most points I could spend without breaking the limit".
This is very different to being told to remove a specific, exact percentage.

"Up to" is not accidental, it is a hard limit.

That makes sense, but...

How does the "points rule" NOT ask you to divide? It asks you to set a limit for the TOTAL, and then tells you that you must adhere to certain percentages of that total for various things. It doesn't explicitly say, "You must divide the total in order to..." but it DOES implicitly say that.

Take 2.

The issue can also be read as already proving that points are not something that are rounded, despite being implicitly so via the DtC rule.

Explicitly, they are not.

 Tangent wrote:
That makes sense, but...

How does the "points rule" NOT ask you to divide? It asks you to set a limit for the TOTAL, and then tells you that you must adhere to certain percentages of that total for various things. It doesn't explicitly say, "You must divide the total in order to..." but it DOES implicitly say that.

There are 2 ways to answer this.

1) The mathematical arguement. In order to comply with the points rule, you must show what percentage you have spent. This is a different calculation to working out how many points you can spend. This calculation starts with points spent and converts them to a percentage. If you do this, you show that 500 is too many points.

2) The most important rule. Even doing the wrong thing, dividing the total by 4, you cannot use DTC, because this would lead to you breaking the "up to" part f the points rule. "The most ikportant rule" says that if you see conflict between two rules then the more ikportant one wins. A specific, hard limit is more important than a general principle, so you CAN'T round up above it. 499 still wins.

The The Most Important Rule only states that don't spend all your game time looking up a rule, dice it off and loot it up later.

It doesn't say anything about specific and general.

Please stop dropping totally incorrect information; it's just going to feed people who jump in 5 pages later.

The basic vs advance (page 11) says that army book > BRB.

Generally speaking here are three points out of many.

1. There is no need to use the rule.

2. Even ignoring 1, there is no need to round points. Fraction point listings are in the rules.

3. Even ignoring 2 (and thus 1), there is no way to state that at the game that your 500 points fits into the 1999 game, as 500 / 1999 is greater than what you can bring, it would be rounded to 26% of the allowance for the army.

Any of these lead to conflict resolved by 1.

You're not asked to calculate 500/1999. You're asked to calculate 25% of 1999.

What is 25% of 1999 in the world of WHFB?

DukeRustfield wrote:
You're not asked to calculate 500/1999. You're asked to calculate 25% of 1999.

What is 25% of 1999 in the world of WHFB?

You are told you can bring up to 25% of your total (of 1999) points. When you calculate what (percentage) you brought (as the rules state to do), you divide 500 by 1999.

That number is more than 25%, thus breaking a rule.

editing to add:
It is interesting that you are saying that you are not called upon to divide the values listed so DtC does not apply.

Since a percentage is a faction, doesn't DTC let you spend all your ppoints on rares?
/facetious off


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
The The Most Important Rule only states that don't spend all your game time looking up a rule, dice it off and loot it up later.

It doesn't say anything about specific and general.

Please stop dropping totally incorrect information; it's just going to feed people who jump in 5 pages later.

The basic vs advance (page 11) says that army book > BRB.

Sorry if so - will check when I gget home. Hat does not affect the general gist of my point however, there is still no justification for breaking the hard limit.

Ok, so now I'm a bit confused on what to do with my skaven.

The arguments seem hypothesize that fractions are not allowed to exist at any point in the warhammer world, be it dice rolls, modifiers, models to fire, or points to spend...

...so when I give 31 skaven slaves shields for 0.5 points a piece, am I spending 15.5 points, or 16 points to give them those shields? Would the unit cost 77.5 points, or 78 points? If I took two of those units, would my army total be increased by 155 or 156?

Rounding numbers has no business in selecting units or determining how much you can spend so long as army books contain values which are, by definition, fractions that are not to be rounded.

Seriously? How the hell is this a 10 page thread? Has Dakka really gone this much to the dogs?

 kirsanth wrote:
You are told you can bring up to 25% of your total (of 1999) points.

Stop there. That is indeed exactly what it asks you. But then you're jumping ahead to 500 without ever doing what it has asked. It's a very simple sentence. The BRB, word-for-word: "You can spend up to 25% of your points on Rare units." Forget 500. That is never mentioned. Pretend your total points is 2398423895892359825723859726823598235. How do you calculate your Rare allowance using the rules in the BRB? Plugging into my calculator I get 5996059739730899564309649317058.8 which is then subject to DTC and rounded up to ___589 for Rares.

I.e., AGAIN,

What is 25% of 1999?

Will one of the people who is arguing that 500 is 25% of 1999, please explain to me how this can be. When the rule states that you can take UPTO 25% of your allotted point value, and 500 is clearly more than 25%. I understand how you are using DTC to imply that 499.75 rounds up to 500 points. I get how you have explained this, However after rounding up, 500 becomes more that the allowed UPTO 25%. How exactly does DTC allow you to break the rule that you cannot take more than 25% of the allotted points which caps out at 499.75 not 500. I also get that 99.99999…% of the time this is a non issue, as the majority of games are played in increments of 500 points. But I still do not understand how you can justify that rounding up does not break the cap of up to 25%.

499 = less than 25%, 500 = more than 25%, there is no whole number that = 25% in this instant. You are allowed to take up to 25%. If you are arguing that using DTC rounds 499.75 to 500, how are you avoiding the fact that DTC then rounds 500 (25.1%) up to 26%, which is clearly more than 25%. If you apply a rule to part of equation you must apply it to the whole thing. DTC Implies that part of something = a whole. IE 10% of 51 is 6. Moving half move of 5 is 3 ETC. agreeing that 499.75 does round up to 500 this is still more than 25% of 1999 you are allowed to take, thus you cannot put 500 points into any section other than core and have a valid army.

1. please explain that you can take UPTO 25% of your allotted point value,
2. I understand how you are using DTC to imply that 499.75 rounds up to 500 points.

You answered your own question. 10% of 51 = 6 according to DTC. 6 IS 10% of 51. It IS that value. Bust out a calculator. And divide 6/51. It isn't 10%. But it is in in that equation in WHFB. 25% of 1999 IS 500. That is the rule. And it's what you are called on to calculate. It does not say you may take up to 25% of your total--ROUNDING DOWN; or not including DTC. Therefore the rule is still in play. 25% of the value happens to have a remainder. The remainder is rounded up per DTC. Therefore, if you ever want to know 25% of 1999 it is 500. If you want to know it exactly, or less than, or up to, or greater than, it's still 500.

You know it is really funny, the only place 10% is mentioned in the whole book is in the DTC. Personally I think it really is meant to apply to Panic test, where losing 5 models out of 21 would not cause panic, but 6 would. You apply Half of something with different spells, movement modifiers, ETC, I always moved my dwarfs 2.5 inches, Wonder If this has been brought to GWs attention, maybe they should FAQ this. . Not that I plan to start playing any game at 1999.

DukeRustfield wrote:
1. please explain that you can take UPTO 25% of your allotted point value,
2. I understand how you are using DTC to imply that 499.75 rounds up to 500 points.

You answered your own question. 10% of 51 = 6 according to DTC. 6 IS 10% of 51. It IS that value. Bust out a calculator. And divide 6/51. It isn't 10%. But it is in in that equation in WHFB. 25% of 1999 IS 500. That is the rule. And it's what you are called on to calculate. It does not say you may take up to 25% of your total--ROUNDING DOWN; or not including DTC. Therefore the rule is still in play. 25% of the value happens to have a remainder. The remainder is rounded up per DTC. Therefore, if you ever want to know 25% of 1999 it is 500. If you want to know it exactly, or less than, or up to, or greater than, it's still 500.

Us on the 499 crowd have given multiple examples as to why we believe that DtC does not apply to points.
The 500's have one line, in one paragraph, that they claim connects DtC to points. The examples in the paragraph are specific examples that make no connection to points.
In your stance You state ..."it does not say you may take....rounding down; or not including DtC.."..fair enough. And it does not say you MUST use DtC, so the point is irrelevant.

The 500's have avoided answering the question that has been asked by us 499's.
What percentage of 1999 is 500? It's as simple question.

After removing the 10% rounded you have a new value because you have removed models.
Where does DtC limit you in the examples it gives? Points value gives a hard limit and a percentage limit.
You quoted the book your self 'you may take up to 25% your points...'.
Once you calculate it the first time it does not cease to be a percentage of your points. It will always be part of your points. This rule never ceases.
Just because you refuse to verify it against your total does not change it's value, numerically or percentage.

DukeRustfield wrote:
But then you're jumping ahead to 500 without ever doing what it has asked.

No. You are doing that.
Calculating what that number should be is not required.
Just comparing.

Did you bring more than 25%?

I did not and can prove it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Seriously? How the hell is this a 10 page thread?

Do you not have internet access at your place of work?



It is professional development.

DukeRustfield wrote:
1. please explain that you can take UPTO 25% of your allotted point value,
2. I understand how you are using DTC to imply that 499.75 rounds up to 500 points.

You answered your own question. 10% of 51 = 6 according to DTC. 6 IS 10% of 51. It IS that value. Bust out a calculator. And divide 6/51. It isn't 10%. But it is in in that equation in WHFB. 25% of 1999 IS 500. That is the rule. And it's what you are called on to calculate. It does not say you may take up to 25% of your total--ROUNDING DOWN; or not including DTC. Therefore the rule is still in play. 25% of the value happens to have a remainder. The remainder is rounded up per DTC. Therefore, if you ever want to know 25% of 1999 it is 500. If you want to know it exactly, or less than, or up to, or greater than, it's still 500.

Thank you for validating the fact 6 is indeed more 10%, I have done the math with my calculator as you asked, Thus I can apply this to the issue and 500 is more than 25% of 1999 you can not take 500 points. you could how ever take 499.5 points round that up to 500 and still be legal. and for the record this is not the same thing! because 499.5 uses the DTC Rule it is a fraction. 500 points is not a fraction and as such can not benefit from the DTC rule.

6 is more than 10% of 51 in many non-WHFB circumstances depending on how they're rounding. But unfortunately for you guys, this is a WHFB forum. And it's 10%.

Calculating what that number should be is not required.

*emphasis added* It is in the rule, however. You are choosing to do an order of operations that doesn't exist in the BRB.

"You can spend up to 25% of your points on Rare units."

.25 * TOTAL_POINTS >= RARE_SPEND

That is literally what that sentence means. You know the value for TOTAL_POINTS, only RARE_SPEND is unknown. That is what is in the BRB. And DTC comes into play on the result (if there's a remainder). You are saying a formula of:

(RAREPOINTS_1 + RAREPOINTS_2 + RAREPOINTS_N) / TOTAL_POINTS <= .25
or
(RAREPOINTS_1 + RAREPOINTS_2 + RAREPOINTS_N) /.25 <= TOTAL_POINTS

But that is not what the rule says. The sentence isn't: "Your Rares units may be up to 25% of your total points." It's close. And about as generous as I can get. And often they will be the same. But you can see it's not the BRB. It simply doesn't state your Rare units divided or multiplied by anything and that matters because of DTC. It does, however, say 25% of your points.

If this were a math class, you could convert the first equation into:

TOTAL_POINTS >= RARE_SPEND/.25

But a) that's not the verbiage in the BRB b) it's still not the same as what you're saying, as RARE_SPEND isn't the total of RAREPOINTS.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Seriously? How the hell is this a 10 page thread? Has Dakka really gone this much to the dogs?

Explanation:

A: "I AM RIGHT OMG Y U NO LISTEN TO ME"
B: "I AM RIGHT OMG Y U NO LISTEN TO ME"

...since page 1.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Seriously? How the hell is this a 10 page thread? Has Dakka really gone this much to the dogs?

Explanation:

A: "I AM RIGHT OMG Y U NO LISTEN TO ME"
B: "I AM RIGHT OMG Y U NO LISTEN TO ME"

...since page 1.

This thread should have been locked a long, long time ago for the simple reason that there has been nothing new added since page 1 or 2.

I vote we table this discussion until such time that a major regional or larger tournament actually schedules an event that has a points total where 25% doesn't equal a whole number. Until such time, this entire debate is a waste of time.