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Dark Eldar.

It's an army that is rarely played and is considered hard mode by most.
An army that requires an expert at the helm and doesn't have the right tools to deal with the top tier armies.

I paid a visit to a local gaming club that was running a 750 point weekend tournament and one of my friends had his DE going spare and lent me them so I could play.

The armies they had at the club ran the gamut of the 40k range except that I was the only DE player.

I ran with this:

Sliscus

4 Blasterborn in a Venom with two cannons.

5 Kabalites with a Blaster in a Venom with two cannons.

5 Kabalites with a Blaster in a Venom with two cannons.

Razorwing with Dark Lances, Splinter Cannon, Monoscythe Missiles, Flickerfield and Night Shield.

Everyone that saw I was playing DE either wished me luck or bragged about how easy it was to beat them and that my list wouldn't stand a chance. I saw the other forces and there was some really broken forces. Cron Air, Eldar Wraithwing, GK Purifiers, all of them played by local tourney veterans.

The games during the weekend went the same way, tabling my opponent or causing so much dmg that my opponent conceded or rage quit.

Game 1: Orks - Tabled T4.
Game 2: Wraithwing - Tabled T3 - FIRST EVER VICTORY VS ELDAR.
Game 3: CSM Nurgle - Rage quit T3 after killing a PM squad and Drake in one turn.
Game 4: Nids - Rage quit T3.
Game 5: GK Purifiers - tough match up went to five turns.

Game 6: Saim Hann - tough match up went to five turns.
Game 7: Wraithwing again - tabled T3.
Game 8: Aspect Warriors - toughest match up, almost ended up being a draw, but Sliscus killed the Farseer to gain kill the Warlord on the last roll of the game.
Game 9: Necron Warrior Spam - Tabled T5.
Game 10: Cron Air - I got slaughtered on T2 and conceded T3.

I finished second going 9-1 with the loss coming from Cron Air on the last game.

My question is... with the last codexes released (Tau, Eldar, CD), have the DE become viable again through the armies being played atm, was I lucky with the wins or did I play DE right*?

*staying at optimum range, killing the most dangerous unit first and then ganging up on individual units?

My other question is... why do people think that DE are low tier? I had a blast and the army really came together.

How do DE play at larger games? Any different?

Not sure; I think it could be a function of the fact that Dark Eldar tend to be more effective at low points values 'cause their Troops have the capacity to be both cheap and effective.

People just really underestimate DE. They are a very good army and can have all the tools to deal with the top tier armies, provided you use them with care.

They are an army that plays the mission very well, and that will win you games.

Drager wrote:
People just really underestimate DE. They are a very good army and can have all the tools to deal with the top tier armies, provided you use them with care.

They are an army that plays the mission very well, and that will win you games.

^^ This.

In a game where mobility wins at the highest levels, they are one of the most mobile forces. Use it.


Also, don't underestimate what a blob of 20 Warriors with a couple cannons can do behind an Aegis. Put out enough firepower to nab an early Pain Token, and then you've got a relatively resilient brick of Warriors who throw out some decent anti-anything-with0flesh firepower.

Yeah, the mobility of the army was something I've never played with before as I usually play Terminator based armies.

Now between the DE and Necrons, I need to make a choice of which to collect.

I was going to collect Wraithwing, but they are too two dimensional in regards to the way they play.

Necrons are hated due to the army list being rather broken but powerful. DE are an army nobody plans for and can be woefully unprepared for.

Essentially the shift to infantry heavy armies makes them better, they are what they have been for a while now. Great in some matchups terrible in others.

I play DE and my regular opponent plays Necrons, we both play strong tournament lists and are good generals (based on performance against acknowledged good players and tournament placing/wins).

Currently I am slightly ahead on wins, but we are very even. He typically plays the following core components in his list:

3 Annihilation Barges
2x 5 Gauss Immortals in Night scythes w/ haywire cryptic and overlord w/ mass, sempiternal, war scythe
2x 5 Deathmarks w/ 2 flamer take in nightsycthe
2x 5 Immortals w/ Tesla on foot

As you can see that is a solid list and Dark Eldar can handle it.

Personally I use Haemonculi and wracks then either a lot of bikes and venoms or venoms, ravagers and some other lance sources. I also take Eldar allies w/ War Walkers, Farseer, Wind riders.

With my typical none bike set up I have 60-84 splinter shots @36, 6-18 lances on manoeuvrable platforms, highly mobile scoring units, flamers carried by solid counter assault units with poison weapons and a whole boatload of str6. That's at 1500. In a meta rife with monstrous creatures and holding fewer than normal AT guns, with most shooting focused at mid range this is a very solid option.
1x

Oh I bet DE really starts to come of age now as the answer to all of the new shiny MCs we're seeing with Tau, Eldar and GK. If more people played nids that would really ramp up the number of DE players. Can you imagine the look on a Tau players face as all three Riptides succumb to mass poison shots That's $250 down the tubes...

Puscifer wrote:

4 Blasterborn in a Venom with two cannons.
5 Kabalites with a Blaster in a Venom with two cannons.
5 Kabalites with a Blaster in a Venom with two cannons.
Razorwing with Dark Lances, Splinter Cannon, Monoscythe Missiles, Flickerfield and Night Shield.

My question is... with the last codexes released (Tau, Eldar, CD), have the DE become viable again through the armies being played atm, was I lucky with the wins or did I play DE right*?

*staying at optimum range, killing the most dangerous unit first and then ganging up on individual units?

My other question is... why do people think that DE are low tier? I had a blast and the army really came together.

How do DE play at larger games? Any different?

that is a very subpar list, even for 750 points.
DE do very well at low points, when people cannot invest in nasty HS to shoot down DE planes. Venoms wreck face when they cannot be killed quickly. The problem is at higher points, even if you bring 9 of them, they are all likely blown up by turn 2.
also as the point values go up, your ability to run away and stay out of range really decreases. 750pt games are played on 4*4 tables. 2500 point games are played on 4*6 tables and there isnt much room to maneuver.

I think the recent codexes that have come out have HURT DE. Tau have too much ignore cover, and now they can spam autocannons and table you in a turn. Tau are almost as bad as IG for DE. CWE can spam str6 and av12 transports, which have mobility. It is again, just like IG. Too much AV12, too much str 6-7, you lose quickly.

DE do really well against elite space marine players who think they can do anything with their ATSKNF and 3+ armor. Every gaming club has tons of them and they play right into DE hands. Add to that the power of playing an opponent who doesnt know your codex and you can rack up quiet a win streak.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
Essentially the shift to infantry heavy armies makes them better, they are what they have been for a while now. Great in some matchups terrible in others.

basically this. DE are not a balance army. There are some games where as soon as the other player opens his case you know you have lost. Other times you feel bad because you know that you are starting with a huge advantage. Both games are incredibly frustrating. I only take pleasure in wrecking Blood Angels players who charge forth screaming, "IM A BLOOD ANGEL, WE CONQUER ALL IN CLOSE COMBAT!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not sure; I think it could be a function of the fact that Dark Eldar tend to be more effective at low points values 'cause their Troops have the capacity to be both cheap and effective.

low points def help them. No one can really spam vehicles in 500 points like DE.

DE still struggle in the current environment. The Tau and Eldar releases did them no favors. Both armies can take a bucketload of mid strength high volume of fire weapons that absolutely ruin DE vehicles. Tau are also able to strip cover saves so your jink or flat out saves on your vehicles aren't going to be saving you. Necrons are still all over the place and Tesla Destroyers will end any hope for a traditional meched up DE list. Poison weapons are also ineffective against the increasing amount of T3 people are bringing (cultists, guard blobs, fire warriors, eldar infantry). All this combines to make the traditional DE builds very weak. The only common build that DE really has good tools to deal with is the Daemon Flying Circus, which a Venomspam list should handle quite well.

Beaststar is still alright, but took some hits with updates to Eldrad.

De are good against any infantry, perhaps not ideal against t3 but shots are shots. They will as such do ok against tau (take night shields to out range them to get first shots, and ignoring cover is no big deal when you have a 5++ anyway.

I always perform much better at low points. Being able to fit in several venoms and a flyer really helps.
Most other armies have a lot of infantry at low points as their vehicles can be expensive and DE eat infantry for breakfast.

Breng77 wrote:
De are good against any infantry, perhaps not ideal against t3 but shots are shots. They will as such do ok against tau (take night shields to out range them to get first shots, and ignoring cover is no big deal when you have a 5++ anyway.

^^ This. Calling poison weapons "ineffective" against T3 is pretty silly. They are just as effective as the Bolter range, and generally cheaper.

Also, Wracks love assaulting T3 units.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
De are good against any infantry, perhaps not ideal against t3 but shots are shots. They will as such do ok against tau (take night shields to out range them to get first shots, and ignoring cover is no big deal when you have a 5++ anyway.

^^ This. Calling poison weapons "ineffective" against T3 is pretty silly. They are just as effective as the Bolter range, and generally cheaper.

Also, Wracks love assaulting T3 units.

^^ It generally is less effective than shooting at marines or large MCs, due to the fact that you are shooting at basically an equal strength to the toughness of the creature, so against mass infantry armies with low toughness, IG/blobanids, they are less effective than shooting down nidzilla lists and other higher toughness lists. Just my $0.02

That is true, they are as effective as Lasfire against T3, essentially think of it this way a Poisoned weapon essentially always has a strength equal to the toughness of your Foe. So they are more effective against armies that pay points for high toughness than those with low toughness, on the other hand most of those Low toughness armies don't get armor saves against the poisoned shots. So while it is more effective against High T it is not ineffective against Low T.

A good combination tends to be a mixture of Wyches, Kabalite warriors (put splinter racks in their Raider to really annihilate high-toughness foes) and Kabalite Trueborn (a squad of 4 can take 4 blasters to do serious damage to armour).

DE perform better at low points mainly due to Venoms.

Our group has been doing a campaign since November, sometimes we play on half tables with smaller lists due to space issues.

Under 1250, my DE are undefeated, over 1500 I'm 50/50.

Also, I think Tau and Eldar are two of the best counters to DE... so recent armies are kinda scary.

Against Tau, if we don't get first turn, it's probably not going to end well. They can outshoot us and ignore cover... ouch.

I haven't played against new Eldar yet, but Wave Serpents will be hard to deal with. I may have to change my list around a little... or a lot. If they go Wraithzilla though, then I'm not worried.

At low points most armies can only afford infantry and very little long range firepower, so Venoms just go on a killing spree.

On the topic of poisoned attacks against low T, it's "ineffective" if you only compare the shot, but as ShadarLogoth said, poisoned shots are generally cheaper. For the same amount of points, we can deliver more shots than a typical marine blob, so while we can't take advantage of that S4+ vs T3, we make up for it in volumes. Also, as mentioned, our assault units love T3.

Personally, and I say personally, I think DE is starting to show its age, at least in term of being super fast, I already felt that we lost some of that speed element when random assault hits, transport losing range adds to that, necrons being able to deploy anywhere with their flyers, etc.. And now Eldar gets their run and shoot thing which I'm honestly quite jealous of, not in the way that I want our splinter rifles to rend, mind you, but I hope when we do, we'll get something that spells "SPEEDY SUPER FASTEST ARMY WOOOOOSH ZOOOOOOOOOOOM"... ok, may be something a little less idiotic.

DE are still fast, but remember that everyone else is faster now as well: even basic rhinos and chimeras can go 18 inches a turn. It may not be quite enough to catch you, but it's certainly enough to reach good cover, objectives and maybe even get out of darklance range in a hurry.

The Eldar book helps mosty by offering troops that can stay on the board until the end of the game while still doing something. Rangers will be survivable in cover against most things and shoots well for their price; Wraithguard with a SpiritSeer can be downright nasty (particularly if you boost their armor save to 2+) and will hold a midfield objective given minimal support.

My main issue with my DE is keeping the army alive. IG destroys our vehicles and troops so fast it's a challenge not to be rolled by turn 3, especially now that full reserve is a no-no. If I leave my guys in their Raider and Venoms I lose half to explosions. If they step out, artillery and chimera-mounted weapons chew through them, The same goes to a lesser degree for Space Wolves, Necrons and some GK builds. CSM helldrakes and autocannon havocs can also defang an entire army in a good game turn.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
De are good against any infantry, perhaps not ideal against t3 but shots are shots. They will as such do ok against tau (take night shields to out range them to get first shots, and ignoring cover is no big deal when you have a 5++ anyway.

^^ This. Calling poison weapons "ineffective" against T3 is pretty silly. They are just as effective as the Bolter range, and generally cheaper.

Also, Wracks love assaulting T3 units.

Wracks love assaulting anything, but they rarely make it into assault.
Posion weapons are as effective against T3 as lasguns, and they are usually more expensive. Bolters wound on 3+, posion on 4+


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spookman wrote:
Kabalite Trueborn (a squad of 4 can take 4 blasters to do serious damage to armour).

Use to be a good idea when every army NEEDED AT. Firedragons, meltavets, wraithguard are much better.

Poison weapons, like sniper weapons, come into their own as soon as you rise to T5+.

Against T6 and T8, nothing surpasses poisoned and sniper weapons in my book.

Also, beast teams are really powerful.

 Sephyr wrote:
DE are still fast, but remember that everyone else is faster now as well: even basic rhinos and chimeras can go 18 inches a turn. It may not be quite enough to catch you, but it's certainly enough to reach good cover, objectives and maybe even get out of darklance range in a hurry.

Every army can now move 6", disembark 6" meaning all that wonderful maneuverability is really an illusion.

 Exergy wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
De are good against any infantry, perhaps not ideal against t3 but shots are shots. They will as such do ok against tau (take night shields to out range them to get first shots, and ignoring cover is no big deal when you have a 5++ anyway.

^^ This. Calling poison weapons "ineffective" against T3 is pretty silly. They are just as effective as the Bolter range, and generally cheaper.

Also, Wracks love assaulting T3 units.

Wracks love assaulting anything, but they rarely make it into assault.
Posion weapons are as effective against T3 as lasguns, and they are usually more expensive. Bolters wound on 3+, posion on 4+


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spookman wrote:
Kabalite Trueborn (a squad of 4 can take 4 blasters to do serious damage to armour).

Use to be a good idea when every army NEEDED AT. Firedragons, meltavets, wraithguard are much better.

SO yes they are as good as lasguns against T3(slightly better with AP), and Better against anything Higher than T3.

They are As good as bolters against T4 and better against anything higher.

When you consider point for point damage though DE warriors against T3 are better than any bolter wielding unit save for Sisters (who are their equal) and Bolter Acolytes (who are better due to being 5 points)

DE warriros do 0.037 wounds per point (at Single shot range)
Tac Marine 0.028
DA Tac 0.031
CSM 0.034
Sisters 0.037
Acolytes 0.067


And yes Marines are more durable, but from a damage output standpoint in general units with bolters are no better against T3 infantry than those with Splinter weapons.

Now the DE maintain that ratio of 0.037 wounds per point throughout all Toughnesses. Where as a standard Tac marine looks like this

T2 0.034
T3 0.027
T4 0.021
T5 0.014
T6/7 0.007

So compared to the standard Tac Marine DE warriors do more damage per point against any toughness.

Well, I think the current releases of Tau and Eldar haven't made DE better than they were before. Both got an up-to-date codex according to the 6th ed and so both got a bit better. So the shift is slightly in the other direction.

Not sure about that, if Tau/Eldar Decrease the number of Cron Air Armies out there, and increase the infantry in the game at all then it is a buff for DE as they don't have much in the way of Anti Air.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are also very strong against Daemons, another new release, and they are strong against some of the Better CSM units. How strong they are really remains to be seen and I still think including eldar allies would be a strong choice for DE.

 Exergy wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:
DE are still fast, but remember that everyone else is faster now as well: even basic rhinos and chimeras can go 18 inches a turn. It may not be quite enough to catch you, but it's certainly enough to reach good cover, objectives and maybe even get out of darklance range in a hurry.

Every army can now move 6", disembark 6" meaning all that wonderful maneuverability is really an illusion.

I agree, but we do still have the advantage of being able to field all the fast skimmers, their 12" move + decent range shooting allow us to reposition better than other armies still.

I think that with the advancement of high toughness models into the more often played category Dark Eldar have a fantastic niche to fill with their poisoned weapons and few instant death tricks.

Don't poison weapons get to reroll to wound if the strength is greater than the toughness? or is that only in closecombat? Wouldn't this make them good vs T3?

 Phragonist wrote:
Don't poison weapons get to reroll to wound if the strength is greater than the toughness? or is that only in closecombat? Wouldn't this make them good vs T3?

Our guns are S X, I don't believe they ever changed that to having a strength value, so I believe it's treated as an S1 weapon?

Baronyu wrote:

 Phragonist wrote:
Don't poison weapons get to reroll to wound if the strength is greater than the toughness? or is that only in closecombat? Wouldn't this make them good vs T3?

Our guns are S X, I don't believe they ever changed that to having a strength value, so I believe it's treated as an S1 weapon?

I dont think it is even str1. But yes, you do not get to reroll against T3. It wounds T3 just like it wounds T8