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Onager Gauntlet moment, Kain?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Macharius tanks are older MBTs, aren't they?

The Macharius is Dark Age tech that was extensively modified by the Admechs based off the STC design. Since it was named after Solar Macharius, that would date the Macharius as possibly the most current vehicle produced by the Imperium. Sure, the base design is thousands of years old, but to fulfill the role of second generation Baneblades, it is a very new design.

SerQuintus wrote:
Leviathans, Capitol Imperiali and the Clan-Cities are bigger yes, but when have they ever been classed as tanks?

Betrayal refers to Baneblades and Fellblades fluffwise as Super-Heavy Tanks, whilst the fast Malcador was described as an Assault Tank fluffwise.

The fact that they aren't tanks doesn't mean a tank that size couldn't exist. I was just proposing them as evidence that there are STC fragments of huge, tracked armored vehicles. These fragments may well be from whatever the GAoT humans called a "Main Battle Tank" provided we accept the theory that the STC Baneblade was some kind of light vehicle rather than itself the Human MBT. Which I am ambivalent on.

The problem with that theory, 1126, is that the Leviathan design didn't come from an STC, and thus neither did its variant, the Capitol Imperialis.

Leviathans were given to the Imperium by their creators, the Squats. Some Leviathans were then modified by the AdMech to become Capitol Imperialis by changing some of the weapons for C&C equipment, I believe.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The problem with that theory, 1126, is that the Leviathan design didn't come from an STC, and thus neither did its variant, the Capitol Imperialis.

Leviathans were given to the Imperium by their creators, the Squats. Some Leviathans were then modified by the AdMech to become Capitol Imperialis by changing some of the weapons for C&C equipment, I believe.

Yep. The Leviathans came from the Colossus and Cyclops, which were Squat in origin and not based off a STC.

I am only 4 chapters into 'Baneblade' and a leviathan is seen in a transport ship my two tank commanders.

Ironically enough they have the same discussion going on here. One envies the vehicle and wants to command it in battle. Ths other flatly dismisses him because it is a slow and cumbersome command vehicle, with weapons that are not meant to be used except in defense.

LRMBT was named after Leman Russ because he (or his forces) discovered the STC iirc. Before that Im pretty sure the Imperium used Malcadors.

The Malcador

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Malcador_(Heavy_Tank)#.UcHoZ8lwYm8

Baneblade/Land Raider, from what I can read up ^_^

I get that the Leviathan is a command vehicle first, and a tank second, but it does have a Doomsday cannon. That's a pretty big "defensive" weapon.

I suppose part of the debate is what does Main Battle Tank mean. In world war 2 you had three broad categories of of "tank":
Infantry Tanks were intended to support the infantry, they only had to be fast enough to keep up with infantry advancing on foot during actual assaults on enemy positions so could have much heavier armour and guns to effect a breach in the enemy lines.

Cruiser Tanks were less heavily armed and armoured because they supposed to rely on speed to exploit a breach in the lines and wreak havoc with the enemies rear echelons.

Lastly there were Tank Destroyers. This is a separate classification from Cruiser because a common problem during the war which a frightening number of people today can't comprehend is that was that at that time the majority of guns that could fire a decent anti-tank shell generally couldn't fire a high explosive shells - which were the bread and butter of rear echelon ravaging - and vice versa.

It was only after the war that the west finally cracked the dual-role AT/HE gun problem, thereby rendering the distinction between Cruisers (which were simply called "Tanks" in US doctrine, as the US didn't use Infantry Tanks) and Tank Destroyers obsolete. Main Battle Tank is the somewhat nonsensical (ala Submachinegun) term that was adopted for these multitasking Cruiser-Tank Destroyers.

The Leman Russ is a bit slow by modern standards and its main gun only fires HE under the 40k rules, but if Forge World are to be believed its battle cannon can fire AT rounds as well (optional ammo rules in an early Imperial Armour, I'm not getting confused with the Vanguiser) and it can mount a Lascannon as well so I have no issue with it being classified as an MBT.

The Baneblade on the other hand is an Infantry tank plain and simple. I suppose a Leviathan could be classified as an undead Infantry tank that overdosed on steriods, but neither possess the speed to function as an MBT under its real world definition.

The Malcador - in its Pre/Heresy form - possesses the speed and the varied armament to actually function as an MBT.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I get that the Leviathan is a command vehicle first, and a tank second, but it does have a Doomsday cannon. That's a pretty big "defensive" weapon.

Why, for when you really, really don't want the enemy near you of course. Nothing screams "FETH OFF" like a nuke to the face.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I get that the Leviathan is a command vehicle first, and a tank second, but it does have a Doomsday cannon. That's a pretty big "defensive" weapon.

Why, for when you really, really don't want the enemy near you of course. Nothing screams "FETH OFF" like a nuke to the face.

Or running over them and crushing them under your tracks, Command and Conquer style.

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I get that the Leviathan is a command vehicle first, and a tank second, but it does have a Doomsday cannon. That's a pretty big "defensive" weapon.

Why, for when you really, really don't want the enemy near you of course. Nothing screams "FETH OFF" like a nuke to the face.

Or running over them and crushing them under your tracks, Command and Conquer style.

The same could be said of a Baneblade.

Is a Baneblade an inherently defensive tank?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I get that the Leviathan is a command vehicle first, and a tank second, but it does have a Doomsday cannon. That's a pretty big "defensive" weapon.

Why, for when you really, really don't want the enemy near you of course. Nothing screams "FETH OFF" like a nuke to the face.

Or running over them and crushing them under your tracks, Command and Conquer style.

The same could be said of a Baneblade.

Is a Baneblade an inherently defensive tank?

Can you really call it an offensive tank? That thing is huge. It would get bogged down constantly or find places it wouldn't fit through without a dedicated corps of engineers.

For topic, the Malcador was used since the Baneblade became scarce after the Horus Heresy. I believe it was the main tank of the Imperial Army beforehand, though.

Out of fluff, originally GW had very few plastic kits and looked to use them in as many armies as they could.

So the Land raider and Rhino were standard tanks of the SM, the Imperial Army/Guard, the Squats, and even looted by Harliquins.

The Leman Russ was introduced as a 5mm metal model in Epic Space Marine, IIRC before the Primarch fluff was really codified. The name Leman Russ dated back to RT, but the fluff about Primarchs etc came a bit later.

So it may be a case that Leman Russ is some obscure reference/in joke that got reused for 2 bits of fluff.

The name always bugged me, the IG have a pretty strict naming regime with every tank names for a mythical monster. And then the Russ.

Ah well.

Well technically, Leman Russ is a mythical creature according to the people of the Imperium.

To the average Imperial Citizen, the Space Marines are things of legend; a rare symbol of the Imperium's might.

I would think they would consider a Primarch to be a creature of myth, similar to a dragon.
Not to mention that the Primarchs are directly descended from the Emperor.

I think they used Land Raiders and Rhinos alongside the Space Marines.
Somewhere in there the Malcador was used as well, alongside the Baneblade and a few variants of it.

As for why its named after Spehess Puppies primarch I don't care.
I built my own "Leman Russ" tank design with some thought put into the mechanical design as opposed to "Giant rhomboid tanks look cool" (say it with a slur, and you'll get the meaning)

I personally called it the "Vanguard" as the sight of a LR often is only the prelude to the unstoppable onslaught of artillery, troops and even more tanks.



The Macharius tank I know came long after the LRBT was in service.

 Engine of War wrote:
As for why its named after Spehess Puppies primarch I don't care.

Leman Russ was originally a Great Crusade era general IIRC and the tank was named after him, when he later on became a Primarch they kinda forgot about the tank.

 Krellnus wrote:

 Engine of War wrote:
As for why its named after Spehess Puppies primarch I don't care.

Leman Russ was originally a Great Crusade era general IIRC and the tank was named after him, when he later on became a Primarch they kinda forgot about the tank.

AH! Well now that makes sense.

In case you all are wondering, here's the historic first appearance of Leman Russ in Rogue Trader.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
In case you all are wondering, here's the historic first appearance of Leman Russ in Rogue Trader.

Note 1: MARINE COMMANDER
Note 2: Appointed Imperial Commander Lucan
(Imperial Commander being the Adeptus Terra rank held by all Space Marine Chapter Masters and Imperial planetary governors. Lucan being the Space Wolves homeworld in said book. Imperial Commander is not a Guard/Army rank)

He was never retconned from Guard to Marine, rather he was retconned from a master tactician to a guy who liked to bash stuff.