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Nevermind, lol.

 Omegus wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Eh, since th orders are coming from Horus anyway, he would have found another way.

Okay, let's assume Magnus didn't follow his nature, and didn't make the attempt to warn the Emperor. Horus still had a conversation with aetheric Magnus when he was beyond the veil on Davin. He could just tell Russ, "Hey, man, Magnus used some crazy psychic magic sorcery to appear to me and tried to convince me of all sorts of terrible things. He violated the decree! And you remember what the Emperor said he'd do if anyone violated the decree."

Russ would have believed him and acted according to his nature. In the Index Astartes version of these events, Magnus was able to deliver his entire warning to the Emperor while Russ was present, and Russ convinced the Emperor that Horus was a stand-up mensch and Magnus should be exterminated for sedition..

Darthmarko's reading of his character in Betrayer is, as always, biased. Don't feed the troll.

And you are not?
What did I say wrong ? I still don't understand; if the guy isn't "forced" (wink,wink) into going chaos...What then ? Tell me genius ? Give me your bias then...Safe distance from Horus, safe distance from IoM ?
What then ? ADB said new book will reveal his ultimate "joining to the traitors", which is pretty lame because they crapped the whole tragic hero story IMHO... Well I can even symp with the red guy until prospero - but there is also a giant freaking gap between character turning.....
Loyalists are not option (obvious) *now insert gap *but the traitors (and the guy who was responsible for his demise) YESSS...*sorry MODS for using a bad language*
i mean you don't join the guy who ordered kill command on you and your legion....This is why old fluff is better on this matter IMHO....

I make no effort to hide my dislike of Space Wolves, but that dislike is based on a whole lot of factors other than the Thousand Sons. You, however, seem to feel the need to "justify" the Wolves' action, because you frequently intentionally misread or misinterpret their actions in the fluff, and can be seen frothing at the mouth in pretty much any thread regarding the two Legions.

I also have no idea what you said in the rest of your post, you are either drunk or your English has gotten even worse. Speaking of those threads, I now remember that trying to engage you in reasoned conversation is pointless. You are a child, and even these couple of short paragraphs were a colossal waste of my time. Disregard my comments and carry on, please.

Wow.

This is a forum about a game we all enjoy playing. Lets just remember that and calm down a tiny bit....

I don't actually play this game anymore, I just can't shake the attachment to the fluff after 20 years of reading it.

 mwnciboo wrote:
If you read Betrayer - You will see why the Wolves would never fall to Khorne, being Feral and Aggressive does not mean you have no self control, or you fall into bloodlust. A pack of Wolves is a group and their is control and leadership a pack leader and a hieracry, The World Eaters lose control and even their primarch does too. This book makes this very clear. The Wolves were never the "War Hounds".

While I agree completely with this, you're mixing up the quote. The Wolves are indeed "war hounds", because their unflinching loyalty and ability to be brought to heel are more akin to a hound. As Kharn says, "a wolf does not act this way. Those are the actions of a dog". So really, having the Space Wolves be called the War Hounds and the World Eaters/War Hounds called the Wolves would probably be more appropriate.

LOL, I wonder what their codex would look like then? Canis Houndborn, Space Hound Lord of the Houndkin, who rides a Thunderhound, wears a Houndtooth necklace and a Hound tail talisman, wields Hound claws, and carries the Saga of the Houndkin. Yeah, doesn't quite have the same ring to it. I can see why they went with wolf.

So what? Who cares ?That's lunatic Kharn ..You do understand what is in-universe perspective, do you ? Great counter arguments btw.....
You are like always brilliant in offending people, but thats it ...Bravisimo...
And ignoring plea goes from me too ....

I ll say again :
- in the Betrayer cyclop's is neutral
- has a safe distance
- he isn't forced into serving chaos
- he knows the truth about Horus twisting the order (remember Ahriman's spear of truth in "aTS" which shocked him )


P.S. YES; I was a bit drunk yesterday, Cheers

Kharn is depicted as a thoughtful and introspective warrior, one of the greatest among the Legions. He hasn't gone fully lunatic at the time of that proclamation.

Also, what is inaccurate about what he said? Space Wolves do not act like WOLVES, but rather like the Emperor's personal hounds. Them taking the executioner title for themselves is only further indication, their duty to the Emperor as they see it is to hunt down his enemies and fetch them back to him (Russ tried to do that with Angron and was supposed to do the same with Magnus), things a hunting dog does. There's nothing wrong with that, it is who they are (or at least are depicted as being).

Torgaddon thought they are the toughest because they are clinicaly insane, but who cares ? Add nails, boasting and jealousy into Kharn's portfolio and there you have it..... simple...
Old Lhorke has a different opinion IIRC....

 Omegus wrote:
I don't actually play this game anymore, I just can't shake the attachment to the fluff after 20 years of reading it.

 mwnciboo wrote:
If you read Betrayer - You will see why the Wolves would never fall to Khorne, being Feral and Aggressive does not mean you have no self control, or you fall into bloodlust. A pack of Wolves is a group and their is control and leadership a pack leader and a hieracry, The World Eaters lose control and even their primarch does too. This book makes this very clear. The Wolves were never the "War Hounds".

While I agree completely with this, you're mixing up the quote. The Wolves are indeed "war hounds", because their unflinching loyalty and ability to be brought to heel are more akin to a hound. As Kharn says, "a wolf does not act this way. Those are the actions of a dog". So really, having the Space Wolves be called the War Hounds and the World Eaters/War Hounds called the Wolves would probably be more appropriate.

LOL, I wonder what their codex would look like then? Canis Houndborn, Space Hound Lord of the Houndkin, who rides a Thunderhound, wears a Houndtooth necklace and a Hound tail talisman, wields Hound claws, and carries the Saga of the Houndkin. Yeah, doesn't quite have the same ring to it. I can see why they went with wolf.

I read that passage differently.... As I believe it's more a veiled reference to Shakespeare - Julius Caesar specifically "Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war"

The War-Hounds are the World Eaters, once they slip their leash they are uncontrollable. Kharn's point is that being brought to heal is the Action of a Dog, not a Wolf, but he doesn't perceive the himself or his legion as Dogs. Especially after the "Night of the Wolf".

I don't think they are mis-named, I think they are appropriately name if you consider that the Space Wolves are much more closely aligned with Nature, and the shamanist past that gave rise to the emperor. The Space Wolf's Feral Nature is their greatest strength, the ability to smell taint, the wolfpack mentality working together to bring down larger prey. They aren't mindless killers. I don't see the Wolve's as Hounds, because Hounds were bred by man from Wolves to be loyal.

Anyway I do agree that GW would have struggled if the "Space Puppies" had been "Space Doggies" there is only so many things before it sounds stupid...

GW Creative team "Yeah maybe we could call the Old Dreadnought....K-9?" *1 minute silence* "I'll get my coat....."

EDIT - I also like Kharn but the Nails are destroying him, Magnus came across as a complete fence sitter and needs to get the splinters out of his rear, through not taking sides.

 mwnciboo wrote:
I read that passage differently.... As I believe it's more a veiled reference to Shakespeare - Julius Caesar specifically "Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war"

The War-Hounds are the World Eaters, once they slip their leash they are uncontrollable. Kharn's point is that being brought to heal is the Action of a Dog, not a Wolf, but he doesn't perceive the himself or his legion as Dogs. Especially after the "Night of the Wolf".

I don't see the Wolve's as Hounds, because Hounds were bred by man from Wolves to be loyal.

Kharn was talking about the Space Wolves, hence the mention of a wolf. He wasn't talking about his own Legion, who discarded their honor as War Hounds and became World Eaters in an attempt to be more like their Primarch. As for breeding dogs from wolves, the Primarchs were bred, and one in particular had canine DNA introduced. Just sayin'. But yes.

In this thread and others, the space wolves legion is derided for being very loyal to the Emperor. This loyalty is criticized as the trait of a "dog" in a negative context. I really wonder why people come to the conclusion that loyalty is bad because in most codes of chivalry in both eastern and western culture, loyalty to the king is the first and most important principle.

Also, in the HH books it is very clear that Russ does not enjoy or relish his role of enforcer or executioner, he performs the role because it is his duty.

On topic, as has been mentioned before in this thread, the 1k sons would not really have had much of an impact because if they had remained loyal, they would have mostly mutated.

However, in the HH books, Horus is taking his sweet time getting to earth and Magnus at least, as well as Russ should have been able to get there for the final conflict.

Magnus' actions did not make any sense in the books but that was because the plotline was formulated 20+ years ago and there really was not a lot the authors could have done differently. You have the awkward situation of authors developing the characters beyond what could be reasonably contained in a previously formulated plotline.

The latter point is what makes all the criticisms of Magnus and Russ just laughably silly. The emotion that people invest in these characters is quite bewildering to me.

JWhex wrote:

Magnus' actions did not make any sense in the books but that was because the plotline was formulated 20+ years ago and there really was not a lot the authors could have done differently. You have the awkward situation of authors developing the characters beyond what could be reasonably contained in a previously formulated plotline.

The latter point is what makes all the criticisms of Magnus and Russ just laughably silly. The emotion that people invest in these characters is quite bewildering to me.

This is what pisses me off really -
Old fluff :
-Russ smells the taint on Magnus, warns the Emp, Emp goes " Leave him alone, his my son !!! "
-Magnus warns Empy about Horus, Russ sees the demonic invasion, convinces daddy about his claims and with blessings of his father burns Prospero
-Magnus is pissed ( has every right to be) , goes under Tzeench and joins Horus

This is much more simple then this (*new fluff*):
-Horus changes the order (or did he???)
-Russ burns Prospero
-Magnus is neutral, knows about Horus changing the order which killed 9/10 of his sons
**************
-Magnus joins Horus


Fact : this is turning into a freaking soap opera just to sell more books

Yeah, Index Astartes was much cleaner overall. Guilliman also isn't a super hero who is everywhere at once.

BlaxicanX wrote:If Magnus hadn't tried to warn the Emperor via the ritual, the Emperor wouldn't have sent the Wolves after him.

Which means that both the Wolves and the Sons would have been free to join the Loyalists side. The Wolves alone, fighting the traitors at full strength, would have been enough to easily turn the tide against Horus. Throwing the 1KSons into the mix would have sealed the deal.

BlaxicanX wrote:I don't think Russ would have attacked the Thousand Sons solely on Horus' command. Yes, the rank of Warmaster carries a massive amount of power, but the Wolves are still the Emperor's executioner, not Horus'. I think that, at the least, Russ would have asked Horus to either provide empirical evidence of Magnus' wrong doings, or get the Emperor to back up his command. Horus would have been able to do neither.

I agree on both counts. Horus once stated he had no wish to face either or both the Emperor's Sorcerers (the Thousand Sons - which also implied that in at least a few of Chaos' plans the Thousand Sons would have remained with the Imperium) and the Emperor's Executioners (the Space Wolves - which also implied the Wolves would always be with the Imperium in all of Chaos' plans). Magnus, Russ, and their legions together would have been the ultimate hax. And even if the Thousand Sons had remained loyal, and Horus ordered Russ to destroy them as Warmaster, Russ would never have carried out the annihilation of an entire legion without the Emperor's sanction.

He had "the Emperor's sanction" from the Nikea proclamation, when the Emperor basically promised to sodomize to death anyone who defied him.

Russ and his Legion were also very hostile towards the Thousand Sons, so I doubt it took much to push them to it.

In the Index Astartes fluff, it was Russ that convinced the Emperor that Magnus should be destroyed.

I still the 1k Sons were doomed either way. Even if Magnus had not broken through to the Emperor, betrayed the Council of Nikea, and attempted to warn the Imperium through conventional means, Tzeentch would have stopped protecting his men. The legion would all uncontrollably transform into gibbering warp beasts and bring about their destruction that way, either from Chaos or another legion wiping them out as corrupted.

I'm sorry, but I was busy back then and couldn't answer in time.

I will try to make this post short about my first sentence which stated about insult to Thousands sons. For another I see no point of defending it. It was already confirmed by another person that it's factually correct.


Thousands sons distaste of Space wolves comes from their disregard to knowledge. They actually almost went to full-out slaughter of each other then Magnus decided to defy Russ plans for total annihilation of enemy. Thousands sons raced to their enemy's 'library" and garrisoned it. As space wolves approached, hostilities begun. I don't remember why Sons begun throwing spells at wolves, but I think that it would have evolved into full-blown warfare if not for interference of other primarch. As Emperor sended them, he doomed all wisdom and irreplaceable knowledge which was gathered at Prospero. He chosen legion which distaste for each other is the greatest, ensuring that legion would be annihilated to a last man as would their perfectly good world and Magnus would be captured and imprisoned on his Throne.

Now legion is reduced to knowledge thieves, dreaming about all that was lost. They still tryed to reclaim their former glory, but Tzeentch had corrupted them slowly. Beginning form weakest and sacrificing ones who saw through his influence.


No other loyal legion would have done that. They first would have tryed to gather evidence, try to contact them, see that's going on, try to convince them to put down their arms peacefully. Only Space wolves was blind and narrow minded enough for that job and it's yet another reason why loyal Thousands sons disliked them.

What would have happened is that Horus would have realized that he would never have a chance, and so the Heresy would not play out at all like it has so far. Eventually, the Emperor would have noticed the Chaos Gods mucking about with his favored son and put the beat-down on them. Horus would be sent to therapy, or military school, to straighten him out.

Once that's done, there's kind of a whole anger management thing, and the Emperor connects with his sons and their differences are settled. There's still some rivalries and problems, but now they handle them all like mature adults.

So back to the Great Crusade, then. They encounter the Eldar, and eradicate them. They encounter the Dark Eldar, pursue them into the Webway, and slaughter them, putting Commoragh to the melta-torch and eradicate them. They encounter the Tau... who are not really anything yet, since they're still tribal misfits living on grassy plains and chewing cud. They eradicate them anyway, for the lulz, because unarmed herbivores are no match for explosive-tipped, mass-reactive gyrojet rockets. A good time is had by all (except the Tau). Shootin' some guns, grilling some (blue) steaks, chuggin' some brews.

Back to the Great Crusade... the Necrons haven't woken up yet, so the few Tomb Worlds they encounter are thought to be the relics of a long-dead Xeno culture, and are destroyed.

Then attention is turned to the Orks. This is the "Big Fight" and takes close to ten thousand years to complete. It is in the purgation of the Orks that several Primarchs are lost. However, as the Emperor is still around, we haven't got into the technical quackery of the post-Heresy AdMech, so Imperial technology has continued to evolve, and we're now approaching humanity's heights of the pre-collapse era. So, eventually, the Orks are all but eradicated.

The Imperium now enters a new Golden Age. Sure, there is some internal strife from time to time. There are occasional Ork uprisings as pockets of Orks on some planets rise up and cause some violence but, in the main, it is a time of peace, prosperity, technological advancement and the establishment of Humanity as the undisputed masters of the Galaxy.

The Emperor rules from Terra. The surviving primarchs rule from the established homeworlds of their Legions. The Ecclesiarchy never becomes a thing, as Lorgar died fighting the Orks.

Then the Tyranid come.

However, the Imperium is at an advantage now. Their technology rivals the Eldar at the height of their Empire, but deployed in numbers and on scales the elves could have never achieved. The Emperor has guided humanity into the age of being a psychically-active race. They're not as powerful as the Eldar were, of course, and are still many tens of thousands of years from such a point, but almost every human is *some* kind of psyker... enough to push back against the Shadow in the Warp, backed by the psychic might of the Emperor, focused through the Golden Throne.

So it's a hell of a fight, and the game becomes Imperium (IG plus Space Marines plus Legio Cybernetica plus Legio Titanica) versus Tyranids versus very small Ork forces versus very small Necron forces (Tomb Worlds have been largely eradicated before awakening)... and it's a very niche, fairly boring sci-fi game with an aesthetic that is largely reminscent of Star Wars, with a few more devotional skulls, missing all the religious and social dystopia, and it's really, really fething boring.

 Psienesis wrote:
What would have happened is that Horus would have realized that he would never have a chance, and so the Heresy would not play out at all like it has so far. Eventually, the Emperor would have noticed the Chaos Gods mucking about with his favored son and put the beat-down on them. Horus would be sent to therapy, or military school, to straighten him out.

Once that's done, there's kind of a whole anger management thing, and the Emperor connects with his sons and their differences are settled. There's still some rivalries and problems, but now they handle them all like mature adults.

So back to the Great Crusade, then. They encounter the Eldar, and eradicate them. They encounter the Dark Eldar, pursue them into the Webway, and slaughter them, putting Commoragh to the melta-torch and eradicate them. They encounter the Tau... who are not really anything yet, since they're still tribal misfits living on grassy plains and chewing cud. They eradicate them anyway, for the lulz, because unarmed herbivores are no match for explosive-tipped, mass-reactive gyrojet rockets. A good time is had by all (except the Tau). Shootin' some guns, grilling some (blue) steaks, chuggin' some brews.

Back to the Great Crusade... the Necrons haven't woken up yet, so the few Tomb Worlds they encounter are thought to be the relics of a long-dead Xeno culture, and are destroyed.

Then attention is turned to the Orks. This is the "Big Fight" and takes close to ten thousand years to complete. It is in the purgation of the Orks that several Primarchs are lost. However, as the Emperor is still around, we haven't got into the technical quackery of the post-Heresy AdMech, so Imperial technology has continued to evolve, and we're now approaching humanity's heights of the pre-collapse era. So, eventually, the Orks are all but eradicated.

The Imperium now enters a new Golden Age. Sure, there is some internal strife from time to time. There are occasional Ork uprisings as pockets of Orks on some planets rise up and cause some violence but, in the main, it is a time of peace, prosperity, technological advancement and the establishment of Humanity as the undisputed masters of the Galaxy.

The Emperor rules from Terra. The surviving primarchs rule from the established homeworlds of their Legions. The Ecclesiarchy never becomes a thing, as Lorgar died fighting the Orks.

Then the Tyranid come.

However, the Imperium is at an advantage now. Their technology rivals the Eldar at the height of their Empire, but deployed in numbers and on scales the elves could have never achieved. The Emperor has guided humanity into the age of being a psychically-active race. They're not as powerful as the Eldar were, of course, and are still many tens of thousands of years from such a point, but almost every human is *some* kind of psyker... enough to push back against the Shadow in the Warp, backed by the psychic might of the Emperor, focused through the Golden Throne.

So it's a hell of a fight, and the game becomes Imperium (IG plus Space Marines plus Legio Cybernetica plus Legio Titanica) versus Tyranids versus very small Ork forces versus very small Necron forces (Tomb Worlds have been largely eradicated before awakening)... and it's a very niche, fairly boring sci-fi game with an aesthetic that is largely reminscent of Star Wars, with a few more devotional skulls, missing all the religious and social dystopia, and it's really, really fething boring.

Between all that, the Dorn Heresy happens and throws the Imperium into civil war.

I thought Russ begged Magnus to surrender in Prospero Burns (Through the Skyjald, at least)?

Lucarikx

The Dornian Heresy would have never happened, because the Emperor was never struck down, so the events that led to the Dornian Heresy happening never came to pass.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Dornian Heresy would have never happened, because the Emperor was never struck down, so the events that led to the Dornian Heresy happening never came to pass.

I thought there were multiple ways of the Dornian Heresy coming to pass? Such as the gods fueling his jealousy of being passed over as Warmaster and being left out of the Great Crusade to fortify Terra, etc.

There are, but none viable in this scenario. Once the Crusade really gets going against the Orks, the eventual loss of some of the Primarchs (heck, let's say all the Primarchs that died or fell during the Heresy) provides opportunities for "promotion" to the survivors.

ETA: Of course, in this scenario, what I'm establishing is that the 40K history has to happen as it has been presented in order for the game, as it is currently played, to be as it is. Any significant variation from the origins and the course of 40K history has serious ramifications on the development of the setting in M41.

 mwnciboo wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I don't actually play this game anymore, I just can't shake the attachment to the fluff after 20 years of reading it.

 mwnciboo wrote:
If you read Betrayer - You will see why the Wolves would never fall to Khorne, being Feral and Aggressive does not mean you have no self control, or you fall into bloodlust. A pack of Wolves is a group and their is control and leadership a pack leader and a hieracry, The World Eaters lose control and even their primarch does too. This book makes this very clear. The Wolves were never the "War Hounds".

While I agree completely with this, you're mixing up the quote. The Wolves are indeed "war hounds", because their unflinching loyalty and ability to be brought to heel are more akin to a hound. As Kharn says, "a wolf does not act this way. Those are the actions of a dog". So really, having the Space Wolves be called the War Hounds and the World Eaters/War Hounds called the Wolves would probably be more appropriate.

LOL, I wonder what their codex would look like then? Canis Houndborn, Space Hound Lord of the Houndkin, who rides a Thunderhound, wears a Houndtooth necklace and a Hound tail talisman, wields Hound claws, and carries the Saga of the Houndkin. Yeah, doesn't quite have the same ring to it. I can see why they went with wolf.

I read that passage differently.... As I believe it's more a veiled reference to Shakespeare - Julius Caesar specifically "Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war"

The War-Hounds are the World Eaters, once they slip their leash they are uncontrollable. Kharn's point is that being brought to heal is the Action of a Dog, not a Wolf, but he doesn't perceive the himself or his legion as Dogs. Especially after the "Night of the Wolf".

I don't think they are mis-named, I think they are appropriately name if you consider that the Space Wolves are much more closely aligned with Nature, and the shamanist past that gave rise to the emperor. The Space Wolf's Feral Nature is their greatest strength, the ability to smell taint, the wolfpack mentality working together to bring down larger prey. They aren't mindless killers. I don't see the Wolve's as Hounds, because Hounds were bred by man from Wolves to be loyal.

Anyway I do agree that GW would have struggled if the "Space Puppies" had been "Space Doggies" there is only so many things before it sounds stupid...

GW Creative team "Yeah maybe we could call the Old Dreadnought....K-9?" *1 minute silence* "I'll get my coat....."

EDIT - I also like Kharn but the Nails are destroying him, Magnus came across as a complete fence sitter and needs to get the splinters out of his rear, through not taking sides.

Completly agree about Magnus i enjoyed Lorgar verbally ripping him a new arse in betrayer.

I agree that Heresy must to happen in sake of fluff. Even though, I argue that it's Emperor's and their primarchs fault of it happening in a way it did. If Russ would not been so dog-like in obeying its superiors and would have investigated properly, no full-blown conflict would have happened in Prospero. Even more, if Emperor would have chosen to get out of his lab and to actually try to prevent as much damage as possible then Heresy would have ended in failure.

My point is: it's not a Horus and his heresy what won an ultimate victory for him (sooner or later, Terra will fall to chaos), but loyal primarchs and their Emperor who sometimes acted outright childish in most critical moments.

Also, Horus was deeply insulted by Emperor's little secret. His arrogance and secrets was a main reason why chaos found a way into his son's hearth. Without that insult, whole matter would have been so much complicated for chaos gods.

 Ernestas wrote:
I agree that Heresy must to happen in sake of fluff. Even though, I argue that it's Emperor's and their primarchs fault of it happening in a way it did. If Russ would not been so dog-like in obeying its superiors and would have investigated properly, no full-blown conflict would have happened in Prospero. Even more, if Emperor would have chosen to get out of his lab and to actually try to prevent as much damage as possible then Heresy would have ended in failure.

The Emperor was a bit busy in his lab preventing Daemons pouring through onto Terra; as a result of Magnus' inadvertent damage to the golden throne.

The Homeworld is priority. The rest of the Imperium can burn but Terra must not fall!

And before that? Heresy was brewing far earlier. By that time, it was like a last reasonable wake up call for the Emperor to begin acting.
Yes, Magnus did destroyed Terra's psychic wards and most certainly, he wasn't just the only one who saw heresy this early. But even then simple: ''look at what you have done! Go back here immediately and fix your mess!" Would have worked far better for Imperium than raging about that was done.

 Ernestas wrote:
And before that? Heresy was brewing far earlier. By that time, it was like a last reasonable wake up call for the Emperor to begin acting.
Yes, Magnus did destroyed Terra's psychic wards and most certainly, he wasn't just the only one who saw heresy this early. But even then simple: ''look at what you have done! Go back here immediately and fix your mess!" Would have worked far better for Imperium than raging about that was done.

I wasn't saying the Emperor was infallible, I was simply stating the facts: that he couldn't intervene during the heresy itself.

As for getting Magnus to fix his mess, that may well have been his intentions for Magnus, before Horus interfered with Russ' orders..

I do not argue with you. Emperor was stuck from that point, but he had a chance of saying his orders directly to Magnus during his tries to warn Emperor about heresy.

Also, from other w30k books it seems that only Emperor wasn't aware of brewing storm. "Mechanicus" novel is a great example how idealogic battles was fought way before any hint of heresy under his very nose. Allegiances was being chosen way before outbreak of heresy. Little things like favoring Horus name over Emperor's showed early hints of schism.
I guess, it's just arrogance and self-delusion that made him think that humanity can be protected by chaos only by his efforts alone. Also, I cannot understand how you could possibly miss that such legions as world eaters will fall to chaos at first opportunity.

Btw: Emperor had tryed to out-play adeptus mechanicus and that didn't ended for him too well as you can see from schism of Mars. Maybe it wasn't his intention, but if we would judge situation only from real actions and merits, adeptus mechanicus was right. Emperor was plotting to betray them.

godking wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
For the most part I don't think it would have changed anything. Horus was actively pitting legions against each other to remove obstacles, I doubt he would have just moved on with his plans while the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves were still operating as normal. He just would have found another way.

There are two game changing changes

Horus has nobody on his side to counter Magnus Lorgar is the closest and even even he does not have the power that Magnus has.

Any legion that Horus sends against Magnus would be crushed in space as Magnus could have done to the space wolves but chose not to to atone for wrecking the wards of the imperial palace..

Which leads to the second game changer magnus not destroying the wards means that the emperor does not have to fight daemons trying to invade the palace meaning that the Emperor might take a more active role in the Heresy and go after the traitors.

Downside for magnus is that tzeentch will most certainly nullify the deal that was made with Magnus meaning that his Thousand Sons will mutate when the use warp power.

Err you do know that Magnus was bluffing when he claimed he could destroy their space ships? He has nowhere near that power and neither does the Emperor (who is incidentally a much more powerful psyker). The thousand sons were a very powerful legion though. From the traitor side the only legions that I believe would have been able to defeat them would have been the sons of Horus or the world eaters.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Magnus was Tzeenches pawn - his fate was sealed when he made that deal and Tzeench would get to him anyway

We are all Tzeentch's pawns, yet only the heretical are brave enough to acknowledge it.