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Better? I disagree. I'd rather have Leech Essence. Less chance to wound but each wound inflicted recovers 1 wound. The Biomancy 1 only recovers 1 wound regardless of number inflicted.

 ductvader wrote:
If it changes at all in the future I would expect it to stay to the Biomancy, Telekinesis, Telepathy nature of things.

The powers will likely be altered to have minimal overlap with existing rulebook powers or have some sort of unique gimmick to differentiate them from rulebook abilities.

Maybe in the next codex Nid powers won't require a Psychic test or can ignore perils of the warp to symbolise that they get power from the Hive Mind rather than direct Warp Contact? Or they won't be affected by psyker defenses?

Just wishlisting.

 Kain wrote:

And then people found out that shrieking Zoanthropes could do pretty much the same thing, but better.

You really think a unit that has to pass a psychic test, fail a deny the witch test, then hit with BS 3, and costs more is better than a unit that's 2/3 the cost and just comes with a heavy flamer?

The average number of casualties from a Zoanthrope using Psychic Shriek is about half a wound.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Kain wrote:

And then people found out that shrieking Zoanthropes could do pretty much the same thing, but better.

You really think a unit that has to pass a psychic test, fail a deny the witch test, then hit with BS 3, and costs more is better than a unit that's 2/3 the cost and just comes with a heavy flamer?

The average number of casualties from a Zoanthrope using Psychic Shriek is about half a wound.

Besides Zoanthropes being being BS3 I agree...I thought they were 4?
Haven't used a psychic shooting attack with them in a long while...

 DarknessEternal wrote:

You really think a unit that has to pass a psychic test, fail a deny the witch test, then hit with BS 3, and costs more is better than a unit that's 2/3 the cost and just comes with a heavy flamer?

The average number of casualties from a Zoanthrope using Psychic Shriek is about half a wound.

You really think a unit that much utility is bad?

I always viewed Zoanthropes as the cheapest way to provided synapse in the codex. The ability to throw them in a pod to have a presence anywhere on the board. With the innate ability to kill AV14 or mass infantry depending on the enemy list or game-type. Talk about tailoring.

No - you continue not using them. While I'll continue winning.

PS - Zoanthropes have BS4.

Yeah Zoans are bs 4, and psychic shriek allows them to engage all targets (which against most infantry, would be 1 wound, since majority infantry are LD 8)

Quick snap question, if something is considered fearless, is it treated as LD10? If so, rulebook page reference please. If not, then a lot of units that count as fearless under certain circumstanses are even easier to wound with the shriek.

No they are not.

Old One Eye is Fearless and LD8

Which is why it's a big deal that Tervigons confer Fearless and their LD10

ignore

 ductvader wrote:
No they are not.

Old One Eye is Fearless and LD8

Which is why it's a big deal that Tervigons confer Fearless and their LD10

This ironically means that shrieking Zoanthropes are best against other Tyranids (along with Guardsmen, Space puppies, and Tau).

 Kain wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
No they are not.

Old One Eye is Fearless and LD8

Which is why it's a big deal that Tervigons confer Fearless and their LD10

This ironically means that shrieking Zoanthropes are best against other Tyranids (along with Guardsmen, Space puppies, and Tau).

I generally find that when that when a codex faces itself they beat the crap out of each other...unless they're both long range armies...then the alpha strike usually wins out.

Where does it say they get their Leadership? The gants would use their own leadership for any tests. They give them fearless because of the Synapse creature rules. Not because they are Tervigons.

I believe Brood Progenitor lends LD10 to termagant units within 6".

I could be wrong...haven't played my bugs since Eldar came out.

It's never affected my games regardless.

Shriek and Doom tear up Termagants, or anything with low Leadership.

Zoanthropes are underused because of how many tests you have to get by in order for them to work, but they bring the most versatility in the codex. Just have to pick the right set-up (Codex/Biomancy/Telekinesis/Telepathy). Everything has it's play, it comes down to practice and list synergy.

Saythings wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

You really think a unit that has to pass a psychic test, fail a deny the witch test, then hit with BS 3, and costs more is better than a unit that's 2/3 the cost and just comes with a heavy flamer?

The average number of casualties from a Zoanthrope using Psychic Shriek is about half a wound.

You really think a unit that much utility is bad?

I said nothing of the sort.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Saythings wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

You really think a unit that has to pass a psychic test, fail a deny the witch test, then hit with BS 3, and costs more is better than a unit that's 2/3 the cost and just comes with a heavy flamer?

The average number of casualties from a Zoanthrope using Psychic Shriek is about half a wound.

You really think a unit that much utility is bad?

I said nothing of the sort.

No you just went around stating your opinion as incontrovertible fact yet again. Quite rudely in fact.

As someone who doesn't do Tourneys (way too far away to be worth the time), I engage in plenty of soft tailoring (vs Codex rather than list) and shrieker Zoans are quite good for mulching Guard, Tau, and Tyranid forces in my experience. Due to Space Wolves leadership not being up to snuff they're also good there.

What are you babbling about? I said using a Zoanthrope for Psychic Shriek is worse on average than a heavy flamer and is more expensive. That's a fact.

More expensive then what? What could you possibly compare point for point? A zoanthropes optional psychic power set-up versus a squad that had a heavy flamer on it? Are you going to compare the transport necessary to bring the heavy flamer and the remainder of the troops choice to the Zoanthropes with a spod as well?

Such a broad statement to make. Heavy flamer causes more wounds. What about T6 MCs? If they fail a Leadership test they get no saves or no cover saves. Can't say the same for Heavy Flamer with AP4. Or a spread out infantry squad? You only need to touch a single model with the shriek compared to hitting 3-5 models with a template optimistically.

It was Zoanthrope vs Pyrovore.

Zoanthrope still wins. Greatest potiental damage and versatility. Pyrovores can only kill infantry/bikes. They do little to MCs. And almost nothing to vehicles.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
What are you babbling about? I said using a Zoanthrope for Psychic Shriek is worse on average than a heavy flamer and is more expensive. That's a fact.

I'm noting that you are excessively negative and have an utter inability to contribute anything constructive or possess a modicum of politeness, but enough of you.

The Zoanthrope guts low LD armies like the guard, Tau, and other tyranids with just psychic shriek, not to mention the host of other powers it can take that are so central to a good Tyranid list. That is a fact.

The Pyrovore does nothing well and anyone who takes it had better know what they are doing unless they enjoy missing out on Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, the Doom of Malan'tai, Lictors, the Deathleaper, Hive Guard, and Ymgarl Genestealers. All of which can actually do something.

The Pyrovore is terrible and most everyone sane only ever uses it for Biovore proxies.

 Kain wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
What are you babbling about? I said using a Zoanthrope for Psychic Shriek is worse on average than a heavy flamer and is more expensive. That's a fact.

I'm noting that you are excessively negative and have an utter inability to contribute anything constructive or possess a modicum of politeness, but enough of you.

The Zoanthrope guts low LD armies like the guard, Tau, and other tyranids with just psychic shriek, not to mention the host of other powers it can take that are so central to a good Tyranid list. That is a fact.

The Pyrovore does nothing well and anyone who takes it had better know what they are doing unless they enjoy missing out on Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, the Doom of Malan'tai, Lictors, the Deathleaper, Hive Guard, and Ymgarl Genestealers. All of which can actually do something.

The Pyrovore is terrible and most everyone sane only ever uses it for Biovore proxies.

While I agree with your conclusion that pyrovores suck, I think you over estimate how effective psychic shriek really is. Granted, in a zoans vs pyros discussion I'd take zoans every time I still probably wouldn't take zoans over something else.

33 out of 36 chance to pass the psychic test; 91.6%
2 out of 3 chance to hit and we are down to 61.111%
1 in 6 to deny the witch and we are at 50.9% now.

Then we have the LD test. The average roll on 3d6 is 10.5.

LD 7 that's 3.5 dead, halved because of hitting/deny/psy test, so 1.75 dead on average fire warriors/guardsmen
LD 8 is 2.5, or 1.25 after adjustments
LD 9 is 1.5, or 0.75 after adjustments
LD 10 is 0.5, or 0.25 after adjustments

So, your 180 points of zoans (plus 40 for that pod) kills a staggering 47.25 points of fire warriors on the drop, in fact, it would take 4 or 5 turns of firing 3 zoans at fire warriors to balance of their own points cost on average. Off-hand, I think you might do more damage with warp blast if you can manage to get 2-3 models under the blast at a time and catch them without cover. Hell, smite from biomancy might be more damage on average as well.

Potential damage vs average damage is a silly discussion. Sure, your opponent could roll 18 on every LD test (I've see 3 in a row over 15 against the doom personally, it gutted an ork army) but it's not going to happen with the frequency that balance out their points cost. If you are looking for the highest potential damage it's hard to beat basic termigants, or dev gaunts, or grots, or guardsmen, or bolter bannered dark angels...or or or, you get the picture. Having high potential damage isn't amazing when the average damage is poor, as you are leaving the outcome of the game almost entirely in the dice's hands, and while it makes for a "cinematic experience", it's random as hell and it's are too inconsistent for competitive play.

In a game of chance, I'd never rely on averages. Yes, they are just that - averages. Those games where the enemy rolls poorly, the Zoanthropes can easily pay for their points. Even if they don't kill point for point, they generally only go for Troops with low leaderships and killing scoring opportunity is key.

On the other side of the fence, if they roll under average and the enemy passes their leadership, the Zoanthropes still provide Synapse for your army and have Shadows of the Warp. Not to mention, the enemy still has to deal with the zoanthropes. They are W2 infantry with 3+ invulnerable saves. There are two ways of dealing with this, lots of small fire and hopes of getting past all 4-6 wounds (I tend to run 2 Zoans in a pod, not 3). Or using S8+ weapons and instant deathing them. They still get the 3++ and that's less high S weapons shooting at your Tervigons and Tyrants (not to mention Doom that should be in any Nid's list).

If they do survive, they can continue to Shriek and become more of a threat.

I don't really see how even if they cause little damage on average how they aren't extremely strong. (Of course, this is only pointing out when the Zoans get Shriek and not when they keep Codex powers and 1-shot a LR.) They also give you Synapse, Shadows of the Warp, and their presence forces the Enemy's hand and need to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

I personally have had such mixed ( and majority bad) results with the DOOM that I have found him to be wasted points. Now I have had great moments with him, like him zapping a whole strike squad and a dreadknight when he landed, but as a whole my opponents have rolled well enough when he first arrived that he was never within 6 inches to use his ability again.

I like zoans, I really do, but it seems the majority of games lately they have just become expensive meat shields more than anything else. And with tau now becoming popular again, interceptor is a real fear and makes me not want to use them in pods, which seemed that as support units was the only way to wield them.

Elites in the tyranid codex is like heavies in current eldar. Jam packed with good units. After much deliberation, I decided that I am going to use deathleaper, since his leadership reducing is incredible with all of the psychers flooding the scene these days (hello jetseers with laughing god mantle and Lords of Change) and he isnt THAT BAD in combat, and has shrouded/stealth! As well, hive guard just win out for me with everythign else, bs4, no line of site, 2 S8 shots, ignores most cover including jink...I have never had these guyss perform badly.

As far as the whole logic of "units making their points back" I see that as more of a figurative idea than literal, because if a unit of any cost fulfills a key role that wins me the game, I consider that "making its points back"

I believe you! I really do. It's so strange how we can have such opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to unit performance.

I'd argue my Doom has never failed me. And even in games where he causes zero wounds and I find myself shooting a S4 AP1 template and it scatters off and hits him (followed by d3 wounds from the psychic shooting), I still think he is worth his points. It's 130 points out of 2000. That's less than 1/10 and even if it doesn't take a single wound from the enemy, it effectively alters the enemies entire deployment. Any prenotions he had in his head while coming up and creating his army list is thrown out the window when the Doom is brought into perspective. He's a huge asset.

It intrigues me that you mention how expensive Zoanthropes are. What else in the army can do what they do for that amount of points? What else can bring synapse for that little points? What else can build so much utility that it can successfully tailor to any army list the enemy can bring? Then you bring up the fact that more pskyers are being brought in the current meta? That surprises me that you'd even mention that when you plan on taking out models that provide Shadows of the Warp. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you deepstrike in Zoans, wouldn't take protect you against Psykers? They have to pass their tests on a 3d6 and on average, they'd fail with a 10.5. Don't forget most psychic tests in 6th as casted at the beginning of the movement phase (before they get a chance to react).

As for Hiveguards, S8 without Melta special rule... Ugh. Don't get me started. Every time I use them I pop a Rhinos or two. Or the offset Chimera that he forgot to face the proper way. They are so weak against AV13+. Don't forget to mention 24" range and AP4 which makes them effective against, well nothing. If you happen to get Hammer and Anvil you might as well pretend they don't exist. If they could purchase pods I'd consider them a threat. If you're going to pop low-AV wouldn't you just consider flying 24" and shooting your Flyrants at them unless they get better targets. Or dropping Carnifexes or Zoans to do the same job. But at least with the other models you have options. Hiveguards only purpose is to kill low-AV transports. Please, please, please don't mention AA with 2 shots each at S8 with AP4.

Generally I find Hive guard underwhelming due to their short range and how easily the Eldar and Tau can kill them (though they do well against their primary vehicles), but Zoans can put a hole in anything and can just do so much.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Saythings wrote:
What? Since when?

Why? I'm confused. lol

If you take 1 guard and roll on biomancy, you are aiming for Iron Arm. This allows you to boost your toughness to up to 9 (which is AMAZING btw) and since you have 2 models with varying toughness, you take the highest, which is the iron arm'ed tyrant. It basically allows iron arm to spill onto the guard and gives you 2 more T7-T9 wounds.

If you take 2 guard, iron arm will not spill onto the guard, as the majority toughness with still be 6 (2 models with 6, 1 with more), so iron arm is basically useless, hence why he suggests codex powers when running 2 guard. Frankly, iron arm and 1 guard is typically harder to kill than codex powers and 2 guard....but you run the risk of not getting iron arm, or just plain failing the psychic test.

This is a pretty neat idea.

I usually run 2 Guard. I roll once on Biomancy, and take Paroxysm from the Codex Powers, because Paroxysm is brilliant and also a fantastic word.

I personally have never found Hive Guard worthwhile.

Also...I rarely find Zoanthropes to be useful for anything more than buffing in this edition...and buffing/debuffing is something they are masterful at. I can't describe how wonderful my zoeys work with objuration mechanicum and telekine dome.

Overwatch ceases to even exist after these powers come into play.

With the constant addition of MCs in new armies...I am finding myself want to experiment with Telepathy just for puppet master.

Doom...will be hit or miss. I cant not take him in a tournament game where I know I will see unbalance or 2+ sv everywhere. But his 120? points tends to be worthwhile

The elites are highly situational, based alone on a lot of the situations you guys have been arguing, I would argue ymgarls are the way to go.

...such is the beauty and frustration of tyranid elites.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shadow wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Saythings wrote:
What? Since when?

Why? I'm confused. lol

If you take 1 guard and roll on biomancy, you are aiming for Iron Arm. This allows you to boost your toughness to up to 9 (which is AMAZING btw) and since you have 2 models with varying toughness, you take the highest, which is the iron arm'ed tyrant. It basically allows iron arm to spill onto the guard and gives you 2 more T7-T9 wounds.

If you take 2 guard, iron arm will not spill onto the guard, as the majority toughness with still be 6 (2 models with 6, 1 with more), so iron arm is basically useless, hence why he suggests codex powers when running 2 guard. Frankly, iron arm and 1 guard is typically harder to kill than codex powers and 2 guard....but you run the risk of not getting iron arm, or just plain failing the psychic test.

This is a pretty neat idea.

I usually run 2 Guard. I roll once on Biomancy, and take Paroxysm from the Codex Powers, because Paroxysm is brilliant and also a fantastic word.

This is illegal, you can't take book and codex powers on the same model.

Harpys are great I used one in my winning throne of skulls list with cluster spines that's 2 large blasts 1 at s6 one at s5 run them close to your flyrant with OA and reroll ur 1s to wound on marines . Works great . Plus again dropping the I by half when you charge makes close by units destroy any thing . Trygons will make a mess of any thing if they have TS and strike first.

Rescinded due to OOPS.