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Recently picked up the book and started to flick through, and something caught my attention with fateweaver.
Each head gets to pick 4 spells from the lores of magic.
Now, does this mean each head gets 4 choices, but i can make multiple on one lore, or do i have to pick 1 from each lore?
Also, ive noticed it uses the word "pick" when it comes to the spells.
Normally it says generate or another similar term.
Does this mean i can actually do that, or am i overlooking this and its just the usual roll on the table?


The book is pretty nice, but really does seem a bit plain and everything is heavy on points.
So to make an army work in an effective way, ill have to actually pick solid units rather than my fave ones.

What units do people think are actually worth taking please?

After looking through, beasts of nurgle seem pretty solid for once, and more than worth taking.

Screamers look a bit fragile, but effective at what they do when it comes to hunting warmachines and skirmishers.

Skullcannon seems very nice, since its a cannon with the ability to move and it can actually fight.


Other than that, everything seems pretty plain and basic, nothing really stands out as worth taking, more so in the troops section.
If anything, ive been tempted to take daemonettes as core simply because they are the cheapest and i can build numbers a bit.

Just want to make sure ive not overlooked any units/characters.
Ill usually be playing 2,000-2,500 point games.

Most units are useful and quite good
Loads of previous daemons players loath this book because it's quite balanced and is not the gamebreaking powerhouse it was, don't listen to them

I'm not sure on Fateweaver, but I do think that he indeed chooses his spells
For Core, everything is quite solid:
Plaguebearers are your "heavy infantry", very resilient (with the -1 to be hit in CC) and killy enough
Horrors are your magic shooters (and channelers)
Daemonettes are your fast light infantry (very good at chewing loads of weak troops)
Bloodletters are your "elite" infantry, very happy to kill other elite troops with their KB and high WS / S

Beasts are indeed very good chaff/chaff killers, and can hold for quite some time
Cannons are too good for their price as they ignore the sole weakness of war machines (vulnerability to CC)
Don't forget the Nurglings who are very tough swarms as they don't suffer from the usual Unstable rule, and have the -1 to be hit as well (and they scout!)
I don't know that much about screamers, but one thing to keep in mind, an army wide 5+ ward save is very resilient, nothing to sneeze at

TanKoL wrote:
Most units are useful and quite good
Loads of previous daemons players loath this book because it's quite balanced and is not the gamebreaking powerhouse it was, don't listen to them

I'm not sure on Fateweaver, but I do think that he indeed chooses his spells
For Core, everything is quite solid:
Plaguebearers are your "heavy infantry", very resilient (with the -1 to be hit in CC) and killy enough
Horrors are your magic shooters (and channelers)
Daemonettes are your fast light infantry (very good at chewing loads of weak troops)
Bloodletters are your "elite" infantry, very happy to kill other elite troops with their KB and high WS / S

Beasts are indeed very good chaff/chaff killers, and can hold for quite some time
Cannons are too good for their price as they ignore the sole weakness of war machines (vulnerability to CC)
Don't forget the Nurglings who are very tough swarms as they don't suffer from the usual Unstable rule, and have the -1 to be hit as well (and they scout!)
I don't know that much about screamers, but one thing to keep in mind, an army wide 5+ ward save is very resilient, nothing to sneeze at

The book overall is a half-finished turd and there's no denying that or glossing it over... Look at every other 8th ed book to date - especially VC's, Empire & High Elves and you'll realise that we got a really raw deal.
Yes the army can work and yes you can make some competitive lists, but a lot of the mechanics are just clunky and overly gimmicky and there's a real blandness to everything. Units tend to be either 'really good' or 'really overcosted'.

Core for example is NOT quite solid;
- Bloodletters are 1-2 pts/model too expensive for what we get now. 1 WS5/S4 (S5 on the charge) Killing Blow attack per model on what is still a T3/5++ save is not worth what we pay. Add-on to this the inability to use the Flaming banner AND that pretty much every single elite unit will kick the crap out of them.

- Pink Horrors work best as MSU units to give you the extra channeling rolls. Going big units of them is pretty pointless, since there's only a couple Tzeentch spells you actually want on them, they're only ever a Lv1 Wizard (though extra ranks give you +1 to-cast upto +3), and you can build them up anyways through the spell damage they'll inflict.
The Blue Horror rule is nice, but overall it's not going to do much against most units. If they get into combat, they're toast.

- Daemonettes look mean, but S3 is still S3, and you need to rely on magic to get them to start carving through anything armoured. Plus again, T3/5++ dies to a sneeze.
You really need Herald support on them, but Slaaneshii Heralds are easily the outright worst Heroes in the entire game for their points!

- Plaguebearers are ridiculously good for their pts, especially when you add a Herald Locus to them, meaning everyone spams a big unit of them! They're simply so far ahead of the rest of our Core options that it isn't even funny.
This is most definitely a bad thing, simply because these guys are so far head of the rest of the pack! Once you look at what they can do, plus how the BSB rules work, AND that Nurgle Heralds can be protected, why would even contemplate anything else unless you're playing to a them?!



Daemon players overall do not 'loath this book because it's not OP', rather, we loath this book because it feels like a rushed, half-baked attempt just to put something on the shelf!

The book has easily the outright worst internal balance of any 8th ed book to date actually... Units are either auto-include, like Plaguebearers + Beasts + Ambushing Flesh Hounds + Skillcannons, or else they outright suck/are overcosted like non-Nurgle Heralds + Flamers + Slaaneshii chariots + Bloodletters... (oh hell, just the rest of the damn army book itself!)

Add to this the frankly ridiculous mechanics like the General/BSB stupidity, the Reign of Comedy table which really sodomises a player, the laughably crap organisation of Rewards, etc...

Seriously, just go read through the 40k Daemons book and the difference in overall quality & playability is like night and day.

Thanks for the replies


626 - Half finished and rushed was the overall idea i got from the book.

The points costings are just weird aswell.
The beasts of nurgle are cheaper than crushers, but are better in just about every single way.
Grinders eat half my points allocation in rare, and thats before upgrades, which they will need.

I swapped bases and changed from 40k to WHFB, then realised that tzeentch really does get hit hard.
If there was no warpflame rule, this wouldnt be too bad i guess.
Now, the fact i run khorne and tzeentch (both mono armies in 40k) im guessing ive shot myself in the foot here?

Khornate units are ment to be elite soldiers, yet they seem pretty poor due to low attacks and no defence.
The defining point between letters and nettes used to be toughness and attacks, its now just the last.


I just dont get why a combat orientated army really does suck soo badly in combat.
Letters will never break a unit on their own, and will need constant support from hounds, who are twice the cost.

Tzeentch is ment to be magic heavy, but lacks any ability to re-roll dice, ignore miscasts etc.
They really dont seem well thought about when it comes to magic.
The wand of whimsy seems an auto-include on any herald/loc, and seems to be a far better buy than the suicidal weapon that is ment to be the next step up.

Flamers have been thrown on a shelf now, i have 24 that have no real use anymore.
Screamers are a consideration i guess, but i wont need 24 of those either.


So, im looking at a nurgle BSB in a plague bunker.
Spam units of beasts of nurgle.
Throw in cannons and hounds for good measure.

Is there anything ive missed from that list?
May add in some nurglings as unbreakable ignores instability, and a swarm of attacks may actually do something.


The whole book just seems a bit screwed about after comparing it to the 40k counterpart.

 Jackal wrote:

I swapped bases and changed from 40k to WHFB, then realised that tzeentch really does get hit hard.
If there was no warpflame rule, this wouldnt be too bad i guess.
Now, the fact i run khorne and tzeentch (both mono armies in 40k) im guessing ive shot myself in the foot here?

Khornate units are ment to be elite soldiers, yet they seem pretty poor due to low attacks and no defence.
The defining point between letters and nettes used to be toughness and attacks, its now just the last.

I just dont get why a combat orientated army really does suck soo badly in combat.
Letters will never break a unit on their own, and will need constant support from hounds, who are twice the cost.

Tzeentch is ment to be magic heavy, but lacks any ability to re-roll dice, ignore miscasts etc.
They really dont seem well thought about when it comes to magic.
The wand of whimsy seems an auto-include on any herald/loc, and seems to be a far better buy than the suicidal weapon that is ment to be the next step up.

Flamers have been thrown on a shelf now, i have 24 that have no real use anymore.
Screamers are a consideration i guess, but i wont need 24 of those either.

Yeah, Khorne especially & Tzeentch got the worst of it in this farce of an army book...

'Letters are complete trash sadly. About the only thing I've used them for is a unit of 16 w/Banner of Swiftness to race up a flank and use as a flank hitter. Even then, it's only because it pays the 'Core Tax' and because I can't bring myself to entirely shelve my converted 'Letters.
They work decently in this role however, though they're prone to getting shot to gak AND the Reign of Comedy table is super harsh on them when it hits. I avoid the HoK because the only way to make him viable is to slap him on a Jugger, at which point, he's eating points I'd rather spend elsewhere. The Khorne Locii are laughably overcosted to boot as well...
However, if you *really* want some Hero support, there is a really good combo of HoK + Jugger + Axe of Khorne. A pretty good blender Hero who gets a decent enough buff from his mount.

The best way to run Tzeentch is:
LoC w/Chromatic Tome + Wand of Win, Lv4 w/Lore of Metal
2x Tzheralds, Lv2 w/Lore of Tzeentch
MSU Horrors (though I like making 2 units 15 strong because they will be my 6-dicing units)
Soul Grinder
Burning Chariot/s

The way it works is the LoC is ment to chuck little spells first using Metal magic in order to either suck out dispel dice and/or build charges on the Wand. Then you 6-dice with the Horror units that get Firestorm & Infernal Gateway to force them through.
Between the Tome + all the additional channels from the MSU Horrors/Tzheralds, you should be sitting pretty in terms of dice, while also limiting the damage that the stupid Reign of Comedy table will do to your magic-heavy army.
The reason for the pair of Lv2 Tzheralds is to roll their spells first and thus swapping out both Firestorm + Gateway to give those to the Horror units. If you've got spare pts, then the Lesser Locus is worth it on the Tzheralds as well for the extra Blue Horror tokens. (you need lots anyways to get any results out of it...)

Another interesting unit to include if there's spare points is a Tzherald on Chariot w/Greater Locus. Just sit him back (likely flinging either Flickering Fire or the Metal sig spell) until you roll that 6 for his Strength, them charge him in with up to 15/S6 attacks on the charge! (Fencer's Blades or +1 to-hit sword would be helpful as well)

Screamers are okay, but I find I never have points for more than just a token unit of 3-4 simply because our entire army is so overcosted in general, outside of the handful of no-brainer choices...

 Jackal wrote:
So, im looking at a nurgle BSB in a plague bunker.
Spam units of beasts of nurgle.
Throw in cannons and hounds for good measure.

Is there anything ive missed from that list?
May add in some nurglings as unbreakable ignores instability, and a swarm of attacks may actually do something.

If you want reliability, then yep, that's pretty much it sadly... Add in some minimum-sized Fury units for chaffing/redirecting and magic to taste.

 Jackal wrote:
The whole book just seems a bit screwed about after comparing it to the 40k counterpart.

I completely agree, sadly.

Oh, and High Elves will rape you now with their shiny new 'Banner of Instant-win vs Daemons'... imagine an entire unit of elite elves + characters who all get a shiny 2++ Wardsave vs absolutely everything we can throw at them, bar Final Trans or Dwellers.
(and yes, I've faced it and it really sucks... pretty much the '5th ed Warpquake spam' of Fantasy for us)

Sadly, alot of people play HE in my area, and they arent shy with the banner of the dragon either, so i know im going to be facing that.
Thats partly the reason i wanted to run kairos, even though he is a liability and a strong wind will kill him.

The fact he gets to pick his spells though, that is interesting.

Throne of vines - for the miscast ignoring and extras.
Earth blood - To mix with above for a 4+ regen.
Regrowth - Allways nice to add models, more so in a small army.
Speed of light - a bit more buffing.

Miasma - To drop Initiative.
Pit of shades - To mix with the above for more damage.
Withering - De-buffin.
Transformation of kadon - Just incase i need to fight, turning into a great dragon or mountain chimera helps out of a tight spot.

All this, and i get the full lore of tzeentch aswell.
Just need to find a way to keep him out of trouble though, because after he starts throwing high level magic about, he will get picked on a bit too much.



Other than that though, i got no ideas what to do again Helves lol.

I've seen 2 slaanesh heroes that do good.
Slaanesh Herald, Locus of Beguilement, and either ogre blade or sword of anti-heroes (depending on opponents character count). Mounted on Steed of Slaanesh.

M10 swift strider with vanguard, and I pick who fights in a challenge, and then take 4 WS7 attacks at S6 save -4. Swinging at init 7, and opponent is -3 init.
It's an excellent assassin.

The other herald I've seen put to good use is the Slaanesh shooter. With slaanesh 50 point whip gives you 2D6 S4 shots, and with BS6 and fast cav, you can move 20" and fire.
It's not a ton of damage, but it does add up over the course of a game. If you combine it with the default spell, it's decent damage dealing for a character not in melee.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I've seen 2 slaanesh heroes that do good.
Slaanesh Herald, Locus of Beguilement, and either ogre blade or sword of anti-heroes (depending on opponents character count). Mounted on Steed of Slaanesh.

M10 swift strider with vanguard, and I pick who fights in a challenge, and then take 4 WS7 attacks at S6 save -4. Swinging at init 7, and opponent is -3 init.
It's an excellent assassin.

The other herald I've seen put to good use is the Slaanesh shooter. With slaanesh 50 point whip gives you 2D6 S4 shots, and with BS6 and fast cav, you can move 20" and fire.
It's not a ton of damage, but it does add up over the course of a game. If you combine it with the default spell, it's decent damage dealing for a character not in melee.

-Matt

The 'character assassin' Herald is amazing... until there's no characters left to assassinate! Then she's an expensive liability as anyone with more than 2 brain cells to rub together will pick her out and slap her little T3/W2 arse silly. (step-up & inability to buy ANY kind of protection just kills her outside of challenges)
If you can assure yourself of breaking the enemy unit you're fighting within 1 round then she'll do filthy, dirty things all game long. But we all know how well that kind of plan works out in the end, don't we?!

For the shooter, I'd prefer to put the whip onto a winged Prince or Kipper for the Strength boost. At that point, you're able to pretty much laugh at any and all chaff for the most part, plus threaten bigger targets like monstrous units/heavy cav. Plus you can combo it a bit easier with Hexes and the like. (ie: a flying Prince can rush a unit, hit it with Phantasmagoria and then unleash 2D6/S6 shots and likely panic the unit in question...)


@Jackal: With Kairos vs HE's, I'd likely set-up his spell selection as;
Throne
Dwellers
Final Trans
Curse of Midnight Wind

Miasma
Enfeebling Foe
(last two spells dependant on which unit is likely holding the BotWD)

For the last two, I'd be swapping around the line-up a bit dependant on what unit I think is holding the banner... (which is pretty easy for Daemons to figure out, since almost every single character will join the BotWD for the 2++ Wardsave!)
If it's say a cav bus of Dragon Princes, then I'd be inclined to take Curse of Anraheir for example, while vs a White Lion or Swordmaster bunker I'd go for Flamecage as it either stops the unit dead for a turn, or else you will get a couple kills due to auto-hitting every model automatically. (at the very least stripping a rank can be vital to denying the unit Steadfast!)

Mostly though with Kairos in the mix, the idea is to simply go for Dwellers then Final Trans the unit in question and be done with it!

The problem with the whip on the price or the keeper of secrets is that you can't march and use it. So the flying daemon prince is limited to 10" if you want to shoot. The keeper is worse off, because you can't hop over the enemy since you lack flight.
The prince is also BS5, so while you are hitting harder, you're hitting less often.

The challenge herald in a unit of seekers is pretty sweet. You just throw it into the flank while your core holds up the front.
For core, Plague bearers, or daemonettes with shadow magic are pretty solid.
Bloodletters are over-priced, but still work. A horde of 40 with full command and a magic banner fills 600 points nicely. Sure it should be a 100 points cheaper, but it's not so expensive that it's useless.

Seems the slaanesh side is pretty decent in places.

I had seen the whip, but i'd prefer to throw it on the keeper since its stronger, and at the same BS as a herald.
Seems pretty nasty to me.

The character assassin is one i really did overlook.
Might be worth throwing it in a unit of seekers for hunting characters and small units.


626 - I really do want to keep the transformation of kadon in there.
If im running horrors i should be able to keep my power dice on the up, meaning i can fire out a high strength spell when i need to.

Keep in mind that kairos is WS1, S5, T5, A1, I1, 5++
I cant hide him in a unit, i need to keep him away from ranged weapons and i need to kill off any chaff units as even they will kill him if they catch him.
Kadon means i have more than a fighting chance to survive that. (for anyone who has not read this spell, go look now, its fun)

In a trial game earlier i managed to pull it off against a DE player.
It murdered a black dragon with a lord on it, and then a hydra, before finally being killed in a suicide mission (i was screwed, so tried to ruin a unit of executioners before going out with a bang)

This spell seems to be something useful, since i can thin down units with the dragon banner then throw a huge monster at them with 10 attacks and a thunderstomp.
I do want to test it a bit more though, just to make sure i can pull it off when needed. (thankfully the D6 re-roll prevented a miscast in the process)



Might be a silly question aswell, but everyones saying to take the default spell for horrors.
This seems good, but has the warpflame attack, so im butchering a unit, but if i cant finish it off with shooting attacks, it usually has a 2+ regen by the time it gets to me, which isnt soo good.

I just cant see a viable way of using damage spells from tzeentch lore without bolstering enemy units more than it hurts them.


And ive also worked out just how bad flamers are compared to 40k versions
Points heavy, do little damage and end up making the target even harder to kill.

The assassin Herald is great. Calling her a "liability" after other enemy heroes have been assassinated is like saying cannons are totally worthless once the enemy is dead... Any unit that faces her is going to almost certainly be attacking 2nd and she's WS7 and I7 with 4A not counting the rest of the unit. Only certain units are going to be able to shrug off their danger.

Kadon is not worthwhile on Kairos as it is dispelled at base costs. If he's in danger, throwing way more dice that you could have used attacking on a spell that will be up a round isn't going to do much. He has access to a ton of blasty spells if he's in trouble. It used to say in the FAQ that he was 2 Wizards, which meant you could still use a head after he was transformed. AND you get to keep special rules while transformed. He's no longer 2 wizards and his reroll is now an item, so he loses it on transform. I.e., he used to be the best model in the game to transform (IMHO), now he's very poor, as he's simply too costly and gets too little in return. He still has thunderstomp. The guy has access to everything, you can do all kinds of trix.

Blue scribes are still a good mana battery. I can't recommend horrors just for a channel attempt. Buy heralds instead. Horrors are pretty sucky. I sat around trying to come up with some means to use them and about the best I could do was having a caster nearby blasting and rezzing them.

Duke - I guess my main level of safety in the game was the fact they only had 2 level 2 casters, a level 4 would have removed the transformation.
Ontop of that, he didnt have a Dscroll, something i thought was pretty common place these days.

Beat stick wise, im still having a fair bit of fun with the thirster.
Been tinkering with rewards and last time i used him, i ran 2 lesser and a greater.
Swapped out the greater for axe of khorne and got a breath weapon and D3 impact hits from the lesser.
Was pretty nasty having him hit with D3 impact hits, 9 attacks at S7 on the 1st round then D6 thunderstomp.

I just really miss being able to give him better armour, as thats his only downfall that i can find.
I will still run him alot though, as his damage output was pretty insane and it was rare that he wasnt tearing up a unit in combat.

So, im thinking greater daemon as a lord.
Nurgle herald BSB, then assassin slaanesh seeker.

This gives me the issue of magic though, which kind of locks me to a LoC since i'll only be playing 2k games for a while now.

Allthough, i could skip the BSB for a level 2 tzeentch herald, as this may give a bit more use anyway.

DukeRustfield wrote:
The assassin Herald is great. Calling her a "liability" after other enemy heroes have been assassinated is like saying cannons are totally worthless once the enemy is dead... Any unit that faces her is going to almost certainly be attacking 2nd and she's WS7 and I7 with 4A not counting the rest of the unit. Only certain units are going to be able to shrug off their danger.

I've played her a few times, and overall while she's a beast vs small units, anything ranked is a deathtrap in disguise... Sad fact is, once any unit champ and/or other characters have been chopped up, most units that are above your average goblin or skaven slave will kill her, simply because she's T3/W2 and only a 5++.

The big problem I've had with her is that if the enemy doesn't break, any half-decent player will simply throw as many attacks at her as they can. Keeping her on the unit corner can help, but eventually, she's toast. And anything elite and/or heavily armoured will munch her.

DukeRustfield wrote:
I can't recommend horrors just for a channel attempt. Buy heralds instead. Horrors are pretty sucky. I sat around trying to come up with some means to use them and about the best I could do was having a caster nearby blasting and rezzing them.

Horrors only suck if you don't know what you're doing with them... The way it works is:
- Bring at least 3-4+ small units. 2 of these should ideally be 15 in size, while the rest can just be the minimum 10 with no upgrades.
Add onto this 1-2+ Lv2 Tzeralds who will obviously sit in the slightly larger units. (though if you've got a 3rd one, I prefer slapping him in a chariot)

- Roll your spells first with the Tzheralds, then with your min-sized units, and finally your pair of 15 strong units last.
The reason for this simple - you want to guarantee that those 15-strong units get Tzeentch's Firestorm & Infernal Gateway as they're the biggest damage spells and will thus allow you to build-up the units through the Tzeentch lore attribute.

- When it comes to your magic phase, you should have the Chromatic Tome for re-rolling low winds rolls + LoC + 2 or more Tzeralds + 3-4 or more Horror units for channeling, all of which re-roll results of 1. Dice should never be much of a problem!

- When it comes actually casting, the LoC goes first as he's likely a Lv3-4 and has the Wand. Give him Lore of Metal and just start 2-dicing his casts to either force out dispel dice, or your opponent risks building up charges on the Wand.
Then you can safely sit back and 6-dice (or however many dice you have) Firestorm/Gateway with those Horrors!
Those 10 man squads are simply just speed bumps/re-directors & additional channel attempts. Flickering Fire is almost never worth even the single D6 you'd need to cast it, and your Tzeralds will likely be the guys who get the other useful spells like Treason & Glean Magic. (or at least, they should be!)

626 - that idea is good, but the damage output for the ton of points it costs really isnt that good.
Not to mention that DD spells from metal cant really do alot to most troops.
Only really good for cav units.

Plus, as ive said, im pretty much restricted to 2k games, meaning the LoC in your layout wont fit as he is hitting 570 points.
I'd rather take kairos for less and then blast away with a multitude of DD spells.

Also, 2 units of 15 horrors and 2 units of 10 is setting you back another 650 alone.
Not to mention 2-3 heralds.

Also, with nothing like screamers in your army a cannon or 2 will kill the LoC pretty damn quickly.

It just seems like the sheer volume of points being put into this idea comes with a tiny return on it, and some magic heavy armies will shut it down pretty quickly.
Not to mention what a hellheart would do to it.

Funny you mention the hellheart.
My experience with it, and against is it completely hoses daemons and vampires, and doesn't do too much to other armies. Odd choice of the item name for something that hits the two most evil armies the hardest.

As for Direct damage and lore of metal, you've got a signature and a sniper spell that is designed for cav. If you don't have a good target simply don't take the signature spell. That leaves you with at most 1 spell that is lacking.
Remember, the idea with the LoC isn't as much to do tons of damage, it's simply to get lots of spells off, and become the combat god. I'd cast plague of rust on anything, even if it doesn't have armor, just for the 5+ chance at gaining +1 Strength and Attack. Your opponent is going to have to think about dispelling it, or face a greater daemon with 10 S10 attacks.

Its funny really, ogres were my "back to WHFB" army and i found the hellheart was an auto-include.
The sheer damage it done was pretty amusing, and vamps used to suffer badly from it.
And since its usually in a 3x2 unit at the smallest, stopping it is going to be an issue with just magic.

Thats true i guess, but night gobbo's are the usual army i face, so i get a ton of horde units and i really dont see the magic doing a great deal.
The S10 A10 greater daemon is nice i guess aswell.

Really think even daemonettes will help out alot though.
Mainly against T3 armies, so dont need anything big, but flooding with attacks should work.
This is why i like the slaanesh assassin idea soo much.

I've played her a few times, and overall while she's a beast vs small units, anything ranked is a deathtrap in disguise... Sad fact is, once any unit champ and/or other characters have been chopped up...

\
STOP. At that point you have won. Your unit has done everything it has set out to do. Their job is to kill more points than they lose, not decimate every unit the enemy has. Think for a second. You don't evaluate units based on their ability to wipe the enemy off the table single-handedly or every unit sucks.

Horrors only suck if you don't know what you're doing with them...

Or instead of getting 100% of your points giving your enemy winds rerolls, and buffing one substandard unit, and hoping like hell no one takes out your GD with only a 5+ ward, you could just take other gods' units and kill the enemy outright. I can't believe you wrote a half page about how Slannesh heroes/units weren't that good and you're trying to use horrors which are the most stupidly expensive 3 stat models in the game.

I dumped my daemon army. The book has stupid mechanics. You can't have that much randomness and expect success.
Other dumb things:
Army wide no dispel scroll option, no unique banners, random items.

Tzeentch "All fluff this guy is magic!" yet not one option for mastery, stuck with metal no option for any of the other book lores, oh here let me give you regen oh wait let me improve it for you WTF. no scroll equivalent, wand of whimsey is an auto include.

Khorne, crushers suck hard, only use is to put a character on one and stick them in hounds, letters aspire to be glass cannons and fail, cannon is an auto include you are foolish not to put 2 in any competitive list

Nurgle, the best of the book, epidimus list is a viable option, beasts auto include can do so much, nurglings are useful remember skirmishers in forests are stubborn, heralds are functional, great book lore option, mono nurgle or nurgle with khorne cannons a solid list.

Slannesh interesting but really weaker dark elves without the shooting and a true hammer besides a kipper. Best thing is the challenge herald on a mount. Good spell lore but kipper is your best caster and also what you want in combat not always the best combination.

For fantasy furies are a solid chaff unit that depending on the mark can do a variety of things.

Frustrating book when you compare it to any of the recent ones.

/gentle trolling ON

You can't have that much randomness and expect success

I have quite some success with Skryre Skaven, thank you

/gentle trolling OFF

Skaven aren't even close to Daemons.

Entire units can simply vanish if you roll poorly on LD tests--OR they can be healed to full. If you roll bad on your winds of magic you can have your only army-wide defense decreased by 50%--OR increased by 50%. There are only a handful of magic weapons you can choose, no magic armor, items, amulets, etc., those have to be randomly generated.

While there is plenty of randomness in the game itself, no army has anything like Daemons.

I ain't saying that Daemons aren't random, they clearly are very much. Though they probably are the most annoying enemy to face in CC as their own version of UnbreakStable is a pain (better than regular Ld / undead Unstable)
I was just meaning that it's not the only army with a lot of random elements that can go either very well or very bad
On the long term, it will balance out and you can be plenty successful, it's all I meant

Skaven don't go "very bad." You chance to have incredibly bad stuff happen to you in Daemons is exactly the same as your chance to have incredibly good stuff happen. You would never buy items that are 50/50 if you had the choice.

The only thing that is even close for skaven is poison globes and they have the benefit of CHOOSING to throw into combat, which no one else can even attempt, and then going 50/50. But the units they will likely do that to are slaves, which are designed for it. If they accidentally drop it on themselves, they are 2/3rds likely to shrug it off. Unstable Ammunition is a 1/36 chance of going wrong.

Again, they are not remotely on the same scale. Skaven are far closer to Empire/Lizardmen/WoC or anyone else than Daemons.

Yes, it balances out across thousands of games. But it doesn't balance out across several and the consequences are very large on some of the events. O&G always have Animosity, but they are somewhat rewarded for it by being cheap and hordey. Daemons did not get a corresponding buff for having a large chunk of their game random. There are units that are almost mirror identical to stats and cost without the same handicaps.

You never had your WLC shoot a S10 blast right on your bell unit, killing the bell + enough guys to have the unit run off the table, do you?
Or your WFT run just between two units before exploding, making them panic and run around on fire
The difference is not so much that it often blows up in your face, but when you roll under-average / poorly, it either blows up or is very underwhelming
for instance, one of my last game, in the same turn, my 2 Doonwheels stopped respectively 1 and 2 inches short of Skullcrushers and a Gorebeast chariot, their lightning were S2 and S4, causing no wounds at all
They obviously got smashed to pieces next turn while just a tad bit of luck would have seen the chaos units slaughtered
I agree though that the army I usually field (Bell tower with walls of slaves) won't normally give out many points even if it goes bad, but I pay this survivability at the price of raw killing power (my most dangerous unit being Gutter Runners)

On another note, a full daemon army doesn't make much sense fluff wise, it's much more logical to have them as allies within a WoC/BoC armies

DukeRustfield wrote:

I've played her a few times, and overall while she's a beast vs small units, anything ranked is a deathtrap in disguise... Sad fact is, once any unit champ and/or other characters have been chopped up...

\
STOP. At that point you have won. Your unit has done everything it has set out to do. Their job is to kill more points than they lose, not decimate every unit the enemy has. Think for a second. You don't evaluate units based on their ability to wipe the enemy off the table single-handedly or every unit sucks.

I just find her too squishy for her cost and too likely to bounce off of a Lord choice before popping from Instability. Hell, I've flubbed her attacks even against a Lv2 wizard and then gone due to the enemy being steadfast alongside ranks/banner.

For her pts, I may as well just spend the bit extra and take a HoK on Jugger w/Axe of Khorne and slap him into a unit of Hounds. Sure I don't control challenges, but he's 9/S5 attacks on the charge and will take hits in return better than the Slaany girl. (what can I say, I love to roll like complete gak in combat. )

DukeRustfield wrote:

Horrors only suck if you don't know what you're doing with them...

Or instead of getting 100% of your points giving your enemy winds rerolls, and buffing one substandard unit, and hoping like hell no one takes out your GD with only a 5+ ward, you could just take other gods' units and kill the enemy outright. I can't believe you wrote a half page about how Slannesh heroes/units weren't that good and you're trying to use horrors which are the most stupidly expensive 3 stat models in the game.

Well, if you want mono-Tzeentch or a heavy Tzeentch theme, then you are very much stuck with Horrors.

Yes they're overcosted, (like most of our book for that matter), but they do work. As they always stuck using the game's second worst magic lore, Firestorm & Gateway on those main Horror units is the best way to make use of the Tzeentch lore attribute. Plus, Horrors don't care so much for miscasting when it happens as they still get their ward saves, and the throwaway units at least help fill out the Core Tax while also generating more Channeling attempts which are crucial to any magic-heavy army.

It's not nearly as foolproof as the big brick of Plaguebearers w/BSB, but it's not utterly useless either.

Lore of Tzeentch isn't horrible, however it's not great. I tend to take it on my LOC, but I try to get away from all the spells that cost a lot to cast. Try to get Pink fire, Bolt, Glean, and sig. These work well with lore attribute, and pink is Amazing into the flank of a horde. Bolt same thing in to some knights.

Yes Warpflame sucks, but the biggest thing about this rule is that it encourages focus fire each magic phase. blast it until it's dead or small enough that LOC, or skull cannon can finish it off with treason assistance. Glean Magic on the other hand is the exception to this rule, I'll toss it out and try to steal spells.

My lvl 2's take metal for Final Tranny. One also takes conjuratiiong to boost flamestorm, or gateway.

Screamers: maybe 5 points over priced, but I take 2 units of 4 and they fly near the LOC for the lore attribute. One pink in the flank usually takes the unit to 10+.

A good unit for clean up is bloodcrushers with flaming banner, since KB's ignore regen it's good to direct those at characters and let the unit wipe them. With treason up, any unit that's been blasted enough time to have a good regen will be thinned out.

 Acardia wrote:
Lore of Tzeentch isn't horrible, however it's not great. I tend to take it on my LOC, but I try to get away from all the spells that cost a lot to cast. Try to get Pink fire, Bolt, Glean, and sig. These work well with lore attribute, and pink is Amazing into the flank of a horde. Bolt same thing in to some knights.

Yes Warpflame sucks, but the biggest thing about this rule is that it encourages focus fire each magic phase. blast it until it's dead or small enough that LOC, or skull cannon can finish it off with treason assistance. Glean Magic on the other hand is the exception to this rule, I'll toss it out and try to steal spells.

My lvl 2's take metal for Final Tranny. One also takes conjuratiiong to boost flamestorm, or gateway.

Screamers: maybe 5 points over priced, but I take 2 units of 4 and they fly near the LOC for the lore attribute. One pink in the flank usually takes the unit to 10+.

Lore of Tzeentch is likely tied with the Beastmen Lore of the Wild for 2nd worst magic lore in the game! (Lore of Athel Loren is easily the outright worst!)
The only reason it's ever taken by Daemons is simply because you can design an army around the lore attribute!

LoC is best used with Metal as it's easier to cast, meaning more potential for building charges on the Wand. (if you're taking the Wand that is, but then who doesn't?!)
Being a Lv4 as well, it's not quite as big a risk of miscasting Final Trans since you can get away with rolling fewer dice.

Although with Screamer farm, I can see why you'd plump for Tzeentch magic.

 Acardia wrote:
A good unit for clean up is bloodcrushers with flaming banner, since KB's ignore regen it's good to direct those at characters and let the unit wipe them. With treason up, any unit that's been blasted enough time to have a good regen will be thinned out.

Note that only the Jugger attacks get the benefit of the banner, since Hellblades are now officially classed as Magic Weapons.

I usually get 4 spells with a 9 or less to cast on the LOC, usually getting 1-2 off each turn, Glean usually pulls out a dispel dice, since horror unit will likely have gateway/firestorm. they will save dice for that. Or if they have been burned by a flank or rear pink fire, that usually changes strat. Yeah the wand is good, except against orges, I'd roll for cleave.

It is intersting to note that Gateway and fire storm are direct damage, so caster can be in combat and still cast at other units in the front arc.

Yes I know the hell blades are magic weapons now, which is fine since KB still ignores regen, and can still eliminate the characters before the juggies beat the unit. It's not an easy type of list to win with, however it's quite rewarding.

 Acardia wrote:
I usually get 4 spells with a 9 or less to cast on the LOC, usually getting 1-2 off each turn, Glean usually pulls out a dispel dice, since horror unit will likely have gateway/firestorm. they will save dice for that. Or if they have been burned by a flank or rear pink fire, that usually changes strat. Yeah the wand is good, except against orges, I'd roll for cleave.

It is intersting to note that Gateway and fire storm are direct damage, so caster can be in combat and still cast at other units in the front arc.

Yes I know the hell blades are magic weapons now, which is fine since KB still ignores regen, and can still eliminate the characters before the juggies beat the unit. It's not an easy type of list to win with, however it's quite rewarding.

Well, outside of "Nurgle + max Skullcannons", no Daemon list is easy to win with!

Thats still not easy to win with

Ive got in 3 games at 2k points as a few experiments.
The full tzeentch idea works to some degree, but ive found that against large blocks of models, it really is gak.

Trying to find a reliable way of removing huge blocks isnt easy.
And taking a stone throwing grinder helps tons, but also cuts a cannon away from me.
So i think its kind of a 6 of one, half a dozen of the other situation.
Ill never be able to take enough of each, so ill have to take what i can and plug gaps.


I need tzeentch of some kind!
Fanatics are pure evil, more so when theres 12 flying about.
2 mangler squigs just make this even worse.
My 1st game was pure khorne and i had to wait for them to choke themselves.
1 particular fanatic also finished off my thirster pretty quickly.

Against anything with a rank bonus, i need to multi-charge.
The bloodletters with a BSB started me on a nice +5, and doubled with a thirster flank charge this actually won combats pretty easily.
But then again, throwing 800 points at a unit usually does that.


Just feels weird that ive gone from lizards to this.
I had a ton of reliable magic, plenty of shooting and some solid blocks of infantry that could hand out damage and take it in return.

Slaanesh daemons look bad on paper, but if your against an army with a small quantity of shooting, i was able to focus on dispelling DD spells and tear into combat pretty well.
Nettes are easily the hardest hitting troops, and seekers mixed with a slaanesh herald are great for small units and skirmishers.
But hounds also do a damn good job of this, but at a much higher cost.


Long story short, ive come up with this as a rough idea.



LoC - wand, L4 wizard of tzeentch
herald of nurgle on palanquin, BSB, L1 wizard of nurgle.
herald of slaanesh on mount with either +2A or S sword.

24 plagues - bunker for BSB
20 nettes
20 nettes

1 beast of nurgle
1 beast of nurgle
7 seekers
5 flesh hounds
4 screamers

cannon
cannon

If points permit i swap out a cannon for a stonegrinder, but so far this has worked the best for me.
I either need horrors and tz heralds or a LoC otherwise magic phase is just a massacre though.

^Looks good i'm playing a 2999 pt game on Saturday (friendly game) and i'll be taking a similar list to this with the exception of taking MSU horrors over nettes and Fateweaver instead of LoC to help boost my magic (I'm facing dual Slann). I'm still debating on hounds with Jugger Axe Herald or Assassin Herald to go after the Slanns. Since your not playing mono or dual god army, is taking a BSB really necessary under the current rules?

P.S. For all those who make it a point to bash our new army book could you please stop. You've made your point (which is a valid one), but what good does complaining on a forum do? If you want to complain to someone write GW a letter or give them a call. We had a good run in 7th and now we have to adapt our armies and do the best with what Mr. Ward gave us.