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 Sleg wrote:
Mysetic Spores, allow half of their numbers to arrive on turn 1 - just like Drop Pods.

That is absolutely incorrect.

But I'm certain a Nid Player can dump a Mysetic Spore, 1st turn.

You're certainly wrong.

I would cry if the Doom had to come in turn 1. Fortunately, it is not to be. Actually read the rules instead of assuming its a Drop Pod. I much prefer to have everything arrive at once as opposed to splitting my reserves.

I think that ultimately, what people are trying to say is this:

Tyranids are by no means the top tier army, however, they can compete at the highly competitive level simply based on the rarity you see them in the meta. Oftentimes, people are (rightfully so) preparing for Tau, CSM, Eldar, Necrons. None of those armies function like Tyranids so if you're playing someone prepared for one of those armies/lists you've got an advantage from the get-go.

Additionally, while the "most competitive" lists are boring, there's typically ~ 250-300 points in these lists to play with which can help you add to you variety.

I agree that the Tyranid codex has many average (at best) units (like someone listed earlier) but playing Tyranids is much more about the "finesse" of the list and the synergy. Tyranids aren't the point-click-dead army that Necrons, Grey knights, and now Eldar can do. They simply aren't. But some of the best tacticians (jy2 can probably attest) don't NEED the best lists to win.

I appreciate the OP start on this discussion because I think it'll help open people's eyes...

Nids work well, if used properly. Too many players try to old spam of tyrants and tervies rather than making the most of the codex.

Some of the good, underused units are harpies, raveners, carnifexes (getting FNP helps), and shrikes.

With runes of warding getting nerfed, I see more nid players trying the same old gak, not that it's making any difference, their powers just work more often now.

Trygons, tervigons, and hive guard are some of the best units in the game for their points.

Tyranids aren't gimped, and despite a lackluster codex with terrible internal balance, they still manage to be fun to play.

As the points values go up, the effectiveness of Tyranids goes down. I've found that their lists tend to be much more impressive when designed TAC...when the points values are 1500 or lower.

Once you get past this mark there is enough variety in the opposing army to threaten those Flyrants, Tervi-spam and Doom.

Warriors with Boneswords ignore armour saves altogether, they have no AP. They can destroy terminators! I play Nids and I win most of my games, gaunt everywhere! Just need to learn different play styles, I used to do Genestealer spam but new edition I thought 'No way am I taking them!'. Zoanthropes are amazing because of their 3+ invulnerable save. Tyrannofexes are worth the points. Ymgarl Genestealers are worth taking hide in terrain and jump out and charge! Swarmlord with Iron Arm is even better! Mycetic Spores are best used with 20 Devilgaunts or the Doom of Malan'Tai. Some units are weak though...

Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
Tyrannofexes are worth the points.

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

I'm not getting into this mess - sure Mysetic Spores aren't like Drop Pods in every respect. But I think you should read the codex one more time just to be sure.

 Sleg wrote:
I'm not getting into this mess - sure Mysetic Spores aren't like Drop Pods in every respect. But I think you should read the codex one more time just to be sure.

I'm absolutely, 100%, will bet real money, sure that Mycetic Spores do not come in on turn one using the rules in the Tyranid Codex.
Please, show me a page.

Are you sure you're not thinking of the Marine Drop pod assault Steg? Nids get no such option iirc.

 Sleg wrote:
I'm not getting into this mess - sure Mysetic Spores aren't like Drop Pods in every respect. But I think you should read the codex one more time just to be sure.

I kid you not, the rule's not there. Unless there's this thing where your codex is in a different language and got translated weird, or accidentally had a page swap with some guys Marine book, its not there. Heck, I have two copies of the codex, they both say absolutely nothing. Page number or scan or something? The rule isn't there in the English language version of Tyranids 5th edition. Guaranteed.

Regardless of Drop Pod ruling, I'll have to communicate some of this to my friend. Thanks.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned gargoyles as a great unit. If they weren't such a pain to build and move across the board I'd drop my flyrants and for a load plus the parasite with zoan support. FNP plus telekine doom makes all those wounds in max-ed units tough to shift...I think a number of ETC lists will be including them.

The above drop pod/spore misunderstanding = troll IMO.

The biggest problem with gargoyles, by far, is playing them in a reasonable time frame (in a tournament setting). They're just NOT conducive to quick play.

Tyranids have some issues (Dark Eldar Venom spam, Space Wolf Jaws/Long Fang spam), mostly stemming from built-in dependence on monstrous creatures. The recent increase in "Ignores Cover" weapons hasn't helped though out much, either, as Tyranids rely on cover more than most armies.

All that said, they're still a fantastic army under most conditions in 6e. They usually have more (fearless) scoring units than anyone else, which is useful in most scenarios. The general playstyle of the army amplifies that advantage, as usually much of the swarm is advancing on your opponent, which tends to confine their options for spreading out to distant objectives (which often end up covered in termagants). The Elites slot is overloaded with good choices still, though the "good" HQs have been narrowed considerably this edition.

Really, the only thing about 6e that makes me sad is that the combination of changes to casualty removal, how cover saves are determined, and the reduction of FNP from 4+ to 5+ has made Genestealers nearly unusable at a competitive level. They're just too easy to kill for the cost now. If you can get Telekine Dome running on them, that's a nice boost, but it's not reliable by any means, and the rest of the Telekinesis powers aren't terribly useful.

What builds do you like specifically in 6th Jank?
Any favs or tips?

Nothing too left field:

Flyrant
Swarmlord

Hive Guard
Doom
Ymgarl/Zoanthropes

Tervigon w/claws & powers, plus adrenals & toxin
Tervigon w/o claws & fewer powers, plus adrenals & toxin
Gants
Gants
(Sometimes genestealers)

Gargoyles
(Sometimes more gargoyles)

Really, the plan is the same as in 5e: you want as many threats landing on your opponent as possible on turn 2, so that he can't deal with all of them, and something gets through. Not being able to assault from outflank has lessened the threat that 'stealers provide, meaning you have to rely on infiltrating them, which isn't as good, but the odds of making your reserve rolls has gone up, which is better.

The problem is when you run into something like Venom spam, which not only HAS enough firepower to drop a large portion of your incoming threat, but also is mobile enough to simply avoid the rest.

I assume for turn one , you're just running flat out as fast as possible with the Gargs, Swarmy, tervis and Gants whilst the Ymargls (cover charge), Doom and Flyrant DS using Hive Commander bonus?
How do you protect Swarmy as he crosses field (relatively slowly)? Ironarm and behind Tervs?

 Ratius wrote:
I assume for turn one , you're just running flat out as fast as possible with the Gargs, Swarmy, tervis and Gants whilst the Ymargls (cover charge), Doom and Flyrant DS using Hive Commander bonus?
How do you protect Swarmy as he crosses field (relatively slowly)? Ironarm and behind Tervs?

Actually, the Flyrant usually deploys, and headlines the charge. Swarmy & the non-clawed Tervigon usually advance more slowly, though being able to assault when spawned means the Tervigon is still participating in the turn 2 assault. Swarmie usually rolls in Telepathy, rather than Biomancy - Invisibility is absolute gold (or at least it was pre-Tau), as Invisible Gargoyles pretty much destroy everything, and both Hallucination and Puppet Master have solid application.

It takes a very cool head to shoot at the Swarmlord, in cover, when everything else is going to hit your lines next turn. He's a force muliplier, but not usually an imminent threat. His job is mostly to make everything else better, and keep uppity Daemon Princes from trying to bother the Tervigons.

 Ratius wrote:
I assume for turn one , you're just running flat out as fast as possible with the Gargs, Swarmy, tervis and Gants whilst the Ymargls (cover charge), Doom and Flyrant DS using Hive Commander bonus?
How do you protect Swarmy as he crosses field (relatively slowly)? Ironarm and behind Tervs?

Im assuming that he just cover hops, which usually works well enough thanks to Move through cover on our MCs. However, it is very inadvisable to DS a flyrant, when you can fly them on 24" and then shoot 18". I like the list though, even if I usually play it a bit differently. I must ask though, how exactly do you like to use Genestealers? The only ideas I've had are to take a brood of 20 and Infiltrate up, then throw TeleDome and Endurance on them if possible.

Thanks for the tips/advice Jank, interesting.
Any fears for Swarmy with Eldar/Tau dexes and lots of ignore cover rules of late?
He really needs an FAQ to 2+

 jifel wrote:
I must ask though, how exactly do you like to use Genestealers? The only ideas I've had are to take a brood of 20 and Infiltrate up, then throw TeleDome and Endurance on them if possible.

Pretty much that, although usually no more than 17-18 toxic 'stealers, and Telekine Dome is a new wrinkle for me. Invisibility from Swarmie has been awesome, when it happens, but even 5+ cover (from terrain or intervening Gargoyles) and Endurance/Catalyst will keep some of them alive. And it doesn't take that many poisonous genestealers to really wreck someone's day; if 6-7 of them live to make a turn 2 charge, it's often enough.

One other note: part of what is currently "hurting" Tyranids in the metagame is that everyone ELSE has started bringing more infantry & fewer vehicles. Body count goes up, so people are also bringing more anti-infantry weapons, which are also useful against Tyranids. The niche of "scary horde army," once only shared with Orks, has now expanded to include Daemons, Tau, more mainstream Footdar, and the like.

We need a codex with a good, solid vehicle choice, so people have to shift back a bit to deal with it. I'm hopeful the Waveserpent is going to have that general effect over time.

 Sleg wrote:
I'm not getting into this mess - sure Mysetic Spores aren't like Drop Pods in every respect. But I think you should read the codex one more time just to be sure.

I think you should read the codex one more time.

You are 100%, completely wrong. Tyranid mycetic spores have no rule that allows them to deploy turn 1. At all, either by deploying half, or deploying any at all on turn 1.

It doesn't happen, there's no rule for it in Codex Tyranids.

What you are doing is using a rule from Codex Space Marines, for their drop pods, but for your Mycetic Spores. This is usually called cheating, but I'll chalk it up to a misunderstanding.

The only complain I can tell about the Nid is everybody use the same internet list (flyrant, gaunt spam, doom etc). When everybody use the same list, you cannot try something else like venomthrope, warriors, ripper swarm.

hellpato wrote:
The only complain I can tell about the Nid is everybody use the same internet list (flyrant, gaunt spam, doom etc). When everybody use the same list, you cannot try something else like venomthrope, warriors, ripper swarm.

I don't. I tend to base my army on the models I think are badass. I use a Flyrant and a Tervigon because the models are awesome, but I also use Venomthropes, Warriors, Hormagaunts and Carnifexes. I mean, I don't use the units that are flat out bad - I won't touch Rippers, Sky Slashers or Pyrovores, but those are units you can plainly see are terrible anyway.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Allies really isn't a huge loss.

No it's not a huge loss, but what is at a huge loss, is not having an extra HQ, Troop and Elite/FA/HS slot. So is that fair, everyone gets an extra HQ, Troop and Elite/FA/HS choice.

And add insult to injury Tyranids can't use BS for Emplaced Weapons.

Which means we can't use Weapon Emplacements at all since they don't auto-fire.

Davor wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Allies really isn't a huge loss.

No it's not a huge loss, but what is at a huge loss, is not having an extra HQ, Troop and Elite/FA/HS slot. So is that fair, everyone gets an extra HQ, Troop and Elite/FA/HS choice.

And add insult to injury Tyranids can't use BS for Emplaced Weapons.

Not really. Some allies are not scoring, so its really just another unit.

Allies only really benefit a few select codices that have a major weakness where the expense of another HQ and Troop choice is worth what you get in return.

In the majority of cases, the points spent on allies would be best spent on choices from the main codex. Its not worth the minimum cost of entry.


To get a unit of Broadsides for AA you are looking at at least an Etherial and 6 Fire Warriors(or some Kroot) which isn't bad, but its not going to do much. So you take a Command Suit and some Bodyguards as well. But now you've spent even more points which take away from the main army.

Unless you are looking at battle brother alliances I wouldn't even bother, and even then its not worth it more often than not.

hellpato wrote:
The only complain I can tell about the Nid is everybody use the same internet list (flyrant, gaunt spam, doom etc). When everybody use the same list, you cannot try something else like venomthrope, warriors, ripper swarm.

Everybody uses the same list? Damn, better change mine and tell the others to do the same. Where can I get a copy of the one list?

To answer the OP's question, no but yes. No, Nids aren't bad in 6th, with the changes to MC and Fearless rules, the massive change to winged MCs, access to rulebook psychic powers and the meta trend to infantry over vehicles, Tyranids can do very well in 6th. But. The Tyranid codex suffers greatly, mediocrity abounds throughout the codex, with units and upgrades being simply outclassed at what they do, not really doing anything, or having unreasonable points costs in comparison to not only other armies but other units in the same codex, and Tyranid players find themselves pigeon-holed into certain playstyles and units to be competitive.