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Resolve at BS5 is a catch all, except where snap shots are concerned.

But it isnt a catch all, there needs to be specific permission to break the rules, and its not there. Limitations to when you can and cant shoot, or when you have to snap fire are set in place, and there has to be permission to break them.

If your going to go ahead and allow snap firing at BS5, why not also allow models to fire missiles after running? Or on vehicles that flat out? Heres the hint, you have to disallow those because the rules exist for those things, just like they exist for shooting at a flyer.

A pinned broadside snap fires its seekers, a devilfish snap fires its seekers at flyers, and a pirhanna that's been stunned has to snap fire any seeker missiles they use. If someone wants to make that hit roll better; they have to spend markerlight tokens one per BS

What about the Counterfire Defence System, that resolves at BS 2. You going say that doesn't work either because Overwatch must be fired as snapshots and if is fired at BS 2 then it is not actually a snapshot and the FAQ says there are no modifications allowed?

A model with a counterfire defence system fires Overwatch
at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1 .

The rule says nothing about anything being resolved at anything. It specifically allows you to fire Overwatch at BS2.

On topic, would a Broadside with a Seeker Missile and Velocity Tracker resolve the shot at BS5?

No, it would not be a Snap Shot if the Broadside moves. Aren't Broadsides Relentless?

They are not. My question assumes they would be stationary and firing the missile.

Sorry, that was to address the last post on the last page. Stupid early morning surfing and I didn't see the page rolled.

Yes, if the Velocity Tracker gives Skyfire it would be a BS5 shot.

 davou wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

 davou wrote:

 Miri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

As the active player, when I have two "Set to X" effects I'm going to set to 1 for Snap Shot first, then because the codex block says "Resolve at BS5" I'm going to set it to BS5.

The codex does not say set to X, it says resolve. Part of that resolve process is 'set to 1'

Davou,

Please explain why you believe the "resolve" has to be in your order of occurrence.

Not mine; but the order of presidence is clearly laid out in the rulebook. Resolve is in no way a special rule in 40k that grants permission to ignore normal rules. Why do you think that the word resolve allows you to selectively apply the rules of the shooting phase? Do you think its a USR?

Okay. Let me ask you another way. Please site the pages of rules order of special rules.

 thejughead wrote:

 davou wrote:

 thejughead wrote:

 davou wrote:

 Miri wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
You can re-read my earlier posts. We just keep going in circles.

Your earlier posts were deficient in using any rules related to 40k

Resolved at BS5 is a modifier, a set one in fact. Read oh, page 2 I think. The definition is in there. So, you set the BS to 5, then it is set to 1 by Snapfire.

Your argument is rebutted, completely. Please only post further if you have some rules to contribute to the discussion - actual rulebook ones.

As the active player, when I have two "Set to X" effects I'm going to set to 1 for Snap Shot first, then because the codex block says "Resolve at BS5" I'm going to set it to BS5.

The codex does not say set to X, it says resolve. Part of that resolve process is 'set to 1'

Davou,

Please explain why you believe the "resolve" has to be in your order of occurrence.

Not mine; but the order of presidence is clearly laid out in the rulebook. Resolve is in no way a special rule in 40k that grants permission to ignore normal rules. Why do you think that the word resolve allows you to selectively apply the rules of the shooting phase? Do you think its a USR?

Okay. Let me ask you another way. Please site the pages of rules order of special rules.

Sure, page 5,7,12,13,42,71,74,81. Also the core rulebook FAQ, the previous Tau FAQ,

OK. I will review that. Thank you. Although the previous Tau FAQ has no relevancy to the current ruleset.

It set a precident ruling for this very question. Ive also quoted a dozen rules over these pages

I remember in the old tau faq they had something saying it was still a snapshot unless other means negated it, but this is missing in the new tau faq. I would imagine it was removed, but this needs to be refaq'd again.

The codex specifically states that seeker missile shots are "...resolved at Ballistic Skill 5." [page 68 - Codex: Tau Empire]

It does say that it must be fired at the same target as the vehicle/ unit so you would have to fire all other weapons as Snap Shots as usual but the rule for firing a seeker missile seems clear.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:
The codex specifically states that seeker missile shots are "...resolved at Ballistic Skill 5." [page 68 - Codex: Tau Empire]

It does say that it must be fired at the same target as the vehicle/ unit so you would have to fire all other weapons as Snap Shots as usual but the rule for firing a seeker missile seems clear.

Did you read the thread at all?
Would you mind actually using rules to attempt to disprove the arguments against your statement? Because as it's standing you brought this thread back from the brink of death and added nothing new.

Isn't this way easier than most are making it out to be?

You have two set modifiers one is "Hard to hit" and the other is "BS5 for marker-light launched seekers" - controlling player dictates the order.

But:
Hard to hit : "Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as snap shots" (emphasis mine)
Snap shots: "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, the its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1, for the purpose of those shots"

So, you could have any number of set-modifiers - and it wouldn't matter. If you're resolving the shot at something other than BS1 it isn't a snap shot anymore.

You have the contributing ruling of the FAQ which disallows modification of snap shot BS, but it isn't needed. In order to shoot at a flyer, you need to fire snapshots, and to fire a snapshot, you use BS1.

I don't understand how you can get around this without an additional rule that allows you to. You can argue the order of modification all you want (by being controlling player) but you still need to abide by the rules which are attached to those modifications. One of those rules is hard to hit - see above. If you're resolving at BS5, you're NOT resolving the shot at a zooming flyer as a snap shot, and you're breaking the rules.

From a skyray it's bs 5, but from say a broadside without VT I'd say if your firing at flyers you snap shoot. I know I know I want it the other way but there is no indication that you would ignore the snapshot rule.

I myself am on the fence. I want it to be bs5 no matter what your shooting at, however it's a tough sell.

Simple question. In the tau codex under markerlights and seeker missiles it never says that these are even shooting attacks , the refer to them just as abilities.

So how are we certain these are even shooting attacks ?

kambien wrote:
Simple question. In the tau codex under markerlights and seeker missiles it never says that these are even shooting attacks , the refer to them just as abilities.

So how are we certain these are even shooting attacks ?

You have to expend markerlights to use them.
How to you expend markerlights?

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:
Simple question. In the tau codex under markerlights and seeker missiles it never says that these are even shooting attacks , the refer to them just as abilities.

So how are we certain these are even shooting attacks ?

You have to expend markerlights to use them.
How to you expend markerlights?

You declare you are expending counters on the next subsequent tau units shooting phase before shooting to use one of 3 abilities

kambien wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:
Simple question. In the tau codex under markerlights and seeker missiles it never says that these are even shooting attacks , the refer to them just as abilities.

So how are we certain these are even shooting attacks ?

You have to expend markerlights to use them.
How to you expend markerlights?

You declare you are expending counters on the next subsequent tau units shooting phase before shooting to use one of 3 abilities

You need to use the shooting rules.
While this is an ability, without the rules for shooting you could not hit or wound as ML do not have their own rules for these items.

Think of it as the rules for the turn sequences are a foundation, where special abilities draw the basics from to be able to perform. The special abilities then stipulate how it works, and will cover within its entry all exceptions. Any of the basic rules which are not overridden by this are still applied, such as line of sight etc.

kambien wrote:
Simple question. In the tau codex under markerlights and seeker missiles it never says that these are even shooting attacks , the refer to them just as abilities.

So how are we certain these are even shooting attacks ?

If you are not using the rules for shooting, how are you rolling to hit and wound/pen?

 Nem wrote:

kambien wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:
Simple question. In the tau codex under markerlights and seeker missiles it never says that these are even shooting attacks , the refer to them just as abilities.

So how are we certain these are even shooting attacks ?

You have to expend markerlights to use them.
How to you expend markerlights?

You declare you are expending counters on the next subsequent tau units shooting phase before shooting to use one of 3 abilities

You need to use the shooting rules.
While this is an ability, without the rules for shooting you could not hit or wound as ML do not have their own rules for these items.

Think of it as the rules for the turn sequences are a foundation, where special abilities draw the basics from to be able to perform. The special abilities then stipulate how it works, and will cover within its entry all exceptions. Any of the basic rules which are not overridden by this are still applied, such as line of sight etc.

ML do indeed have their own set of rules under the target acquired section . Did you mean the seeker missile ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:

kambien wrote:
Simple question. In the tau codex under markerlights and seeker missiles it never says that these are even shooting attacks , the refer to them just as abilities.

So how are we certain these are even shooting attacks ?

If you are not using the rules for shooting, how are you rolling to hit and wound/pen?

"is resolved at BS 5 "

I know this needs to be FAQ'd
as a Tau player I was 99% sure that I could hit a flyer at BS5 with a markerlight...
After reading quite a bit Im pretty sceptical
It makes more sense that if you have VT its resolved at BS5
and if not, then gak out of luck...

I hope an FAQ comes out soon allowing for markerlighted seeker missles to hit at BS5 tho

Illuminor Szeras in the Necron Codex can give Improved Optics. This gives the Unit BS 5 for the duration of the game. Does that mean that they're at BS 5 even when they shoot snap shots, because those occur during a game?

No, it doesn't.

The Seeker missiles are shot at BS5. However, they're shooting at a zooming flyer. Do the seeker missiles have the skyfire special rule? No. Then they are resolved at BS 1. Unless of course, you'd like to argue that the unit that IS gives BS 5 to gets BS 5 to everything because it's a special rule that grants them BS 5 for the duration of the game.

The recent posts have caused me to reread the rules for both Snap Shots and the Seeker special rule for Markerlights.
in reviewing both, I have realized that it may be impossible for a Seeker Missile fired with the Seeker special rule to resolved as a Snap Shot.

Underlines are for clarity.

The Snap Shot rule says:

Under certain circumstances, models can only fire Snap Shots...
If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots.

Target Acquired (Tau Empire Codex):

Immediately before a unit from Codex: Tau Empire shoots at a target that has one or more markerlight counters, it can declare it is using one or more of the markerlight abilities listed below.

The Seeker rule says:

For each markerlight counter expended on this ability, the unit immediately fires a single seeker missile in addition to any other weapons it is permitted to fire.

The problem is that there is no model firing the Seeker Missile. As strange as it sounds, the entire unit according to the RAW, is firing the singe Seeker Missile. Furthermore, since there is no model firing, it can not be a Snap Shot since only a model can be forced to make a Snap Shot.

On top of this, it is the unit using the markerlights to fire the Seeker Missile that is firing the weapon, not the platform the Seeker Missile is being fired from. So if a flyer had 6 markerlights on it, a Skyray could use those 6 markerlights to fire 6 Seeker Missile from Devilfish and Broadsides and the shots would be coming from the Skyray 'unit'.

Whether or not it can hit a flyer is a different matter all together now since they can -NEVER- be resolved as a Snap Shot.

This REALLY needs to be FAQ'ed.

If your going to argue that, then I'll argue that it can never hit a flyer then. Only snap shots can hit flyers according to the rules I've quoted previously, since they aren't snap shots, they are explicitly barred from hitting zooming flyers period.

 davou wrote:
If your going to argue that, then I'll argue that it can never hit a flyer then. Only snap shots can hit flyers according to the rules I've quoted previously, since they aren't snap shots, they are explicitly barred from hitting zooming flyers period.

I never said anything to that point. I simply stated that is was a different matter altogether since there is no model firing it, but the entire unit. I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough and you misinterpreted what I meant.

I agree however, that the current RAW prevents seeker fired Seeker Missiles from being able to hit flyers. I'm not even sure now if the missiles are fired with the special rule from a Skyray if they will have the Skyfire special rule.

As I said, this is a different matter altogether and I believe needs to be researched more thoroughly to see if it changes anything else in the codex we or GW didn't notice.

EDIT: One thing I can think of off the top of my head because of this, is if a vehicle is Shaken or Stunned, it can either fire a Seeker Missile as BS5 with the Seeker rule without Snap Shooting, or another unit can fire the Seeker Missile from the Shaken/Stunned vehicle also at BS5.

All of that has been gone over already, some of it three times; Best to just let it die for now and wait for then to not FAQ it later before we start going in circles again.

I play tau, so I'm gonna just not use seekers.

kambien wrote:

 Nem wrote:

kambien wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kambien wrote:
Simple question. In the tau codex under markerlights and seeker missiles it never says that these are even shooting attacks , the refer to them just as abilities.

So how are we certain these are even shooting attacks ?

You have to expend markerlights to use them.
How to you expend markerlights?

You declare you are expending counters on the next subsequent tau units shooting phase before shooting to use one of 3 abilities

You need to use the shooting rules.
While this is an ability, without the rules for shooting you could not hit or wound as ML do not have their own rules for these items.

Think of it as the rules for the turn sequences are a foundation, where special abilities draw the basics from to be able to perform. The special abilities then stipulate how it works, and will cover within its entry all exceptions. Any of the basic rules which are not overridden by this are still applied, such as line of sight etc.

ML do indeed have their own set of rules under the target acquired section . Did you mean the seeker missile ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:

kambien wrote:
Simple question. In the tau codex under markerlights and seeker missiles it never says that these are even shooting attacks , the refer to them just as abilities.

So how are we certain these are even shooting attacks ?

If you are not using the rules for shooting, how are you rolling to hit and wound/pen?

"is resolved at BS 5 "

Yes sorry, I did mean SM.

One good example is Mawloc's Terror from the deep, it’s an ability which does not even take place in the shooting phase, does not fire a weapon at all but still utilizes the rules. This is why they needed to FAQ that you can take cover saves from the ability. While trying to take cover from something swallowing you up from the ground is not very logical, it follows the rules for shooting - and with the absence of 'Ignores cover' or 'no cover saves allowed' the ability must still abide by those rules.

'Is resolved at BS 5' doesn't mean anything if you have no rules to roll the dice, hit and wound. Without using any rules from shooting - how do you do that?

http://www.novaopen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013-NOVA-Open-Short-Return-Draft-FAQ.pdf

The Chaps at nova may have been reading (actually reading) the posts made here.

When a model with the Skyfire special rule uses the Seeker markerlight ability to fire a Seeker Missile
at a Zooming Flyer or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, the attack is resolved at BS5. If the firing
model does not have Skyfire then the attack is resolved at BS1