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 pretre wrote:
Thanks for the link. Also amusing that the tracker is linked.

It is, but I'd like to see more of that rather than anonymous sentences. I clicked the link, Control-F searched the page for "Pone", looked at his record... 18 True, 2 Partially True, 0 False! Means, I am paying attention to this

Seems pretty open-and-shut given the picture in the OP of the white dwarf page, too.

I'm still deciding on the color scheme of my pointy marines. Will see what these guys bring to the table and if my current collection fits in

I may just need too start a pre heresy army.

I've got all my Sons of Horus just waiting for some kind of jolt of life to the codex so they can see some table action.

I still can't really take any guesses as to what this list is going to offer. It says so you can run a black crusade army. I hope it's not simply that "all cult units are troops" and that there is something more meaningful to it than that.

I love Rumor Telephone.

Original:

Pwn'd You wrote:I also spoke to Jeremy vetock and he said he wants and is pushin for a fallen angels supplement as well as other dark angels supplements

Natfka's:

via a Reader here at Faeit 212 wrote:
Jeremy Vetock announced at games day that there will definitely be a fallen supplement coming, however we dont know if this is for DA or CSM.

So, after reading through the thread, there seems to be a point that most of my fellow CSM players have missed: the current dex ISN'T meant to be BL centric. Previous offerings? Absolutely, but that's the trouble here, everybody seems to view the present codex through a 5th edition (and earlier) lens.

The present codex, as it stands, is meant to resemble the fractious nature of the piles of CSM warbands floating about, generally being threats to smaller portions of space.

What evidence do I have to support this heinous claim, you ask? 2 points, actually: Marked Lords (and a sorcerer for Tz/1KS, hereby lumped into that group for simplicity's sake) and Cultists. Chaos lords bearing an appropriate mark unlock their patron god's cult marines as troops, instead of simply allowing the cult marines to be troops out of the gate. From my reading of the book's subtext and layout, this suggests the very real probability that those Khorne Berzerkers, hanging out with those Deathguard Plague marines and their boss, are there because they have something to gain from being there, as opposed to being all buddy-buddy without a solid, fluffy reason.

Next, we have Cultists, the cheap bullet sponges and plentifully availible for corruption on any world your warband happened to land on, as opposed to being well-trained guardsmen in fetish gear. Top this off with the fact that ANY of the gods can mark your lowly stack of meat shields for whatever reason, and you start to see that the book covers whatever they can dredge up, and not much else.

Dronze wrote:
So, after reading through the thread, there seems to be a point that most of my fellow CSM players have missed: the current dex ISN'T meant to be BL centric. Previous offerings? Absolutely, but that's the trouble here, everybody seems to view the present codex through a 5th edition (and earlier) lens.

The present codex, as it stands, is meant to resemble the fractious nature of the piles of CSM warbands floating about, generally being threats to smaller portions of space.

What evidence do I have to support this heinous claim, you ask? 2 points, actually: Marked Lords (and a sorcerer for Tz/1KS, hereby lumped into that group for simplicity's sake) and Cultists. Chaos lords bearing an appropriate mark unlock their patron god's cult marines as troops, instead of simply allowing the cult marines to be troops out of the gate. From my reading of the book's subtext and layout, this suggests the very real probability that those Khorne Berzerkers, hanging out with those Deathguard Plague marines and their boss, are there because they have something to gain from being there, as opposed to being all buddy-buddy without a solid, fluffy reason.

Next, we have Cultists, the cheap bullet sponges and plentifully availible for corruption on any world your warband happened to land on, as opposed to being well-trained guardsmen in fetish gear. Top this off with the fact that ANY of the gods can mark your lowly stack of meat shields for whatever reason, and you start to see that the book covers whatever they can dredge up, and not much else.

Interestingly enough, that might be why C:SM is getting an ultramarines supplement, to get away with having a "Main Dex" being represented by a legion/chapter.

Is this supposed to be coming out tomorrow, as in on the 1st?

 Rippy wrote:
Is this supposed to be coming out tomorrow, as in on the 1st?

No, gw releases new products on saturdays and since it is not up for pre order already i presume it will be released on 10th.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are getting supplements eventually.

The elite unit entries in the core codex don't necessarily reflect World Eaters, just Khorne Berserkers, for example.

The Legion lists will have unit entries for Berserker/Plague/Rubric/Noise Terminators, unique warlord traits, and some fun wargear stuff.

ANother anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:The mono-god legions will NOT be getting a supplement. It's felt they are well enough reflected in the codex. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers were given as Examples of Chaos Legion Supplements.

Yeah, those two sources say the exact opposite.

also from Faet212

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:
Just over half the space marine chapters of the first founding will receive a supplement.

So on the IoM side we already have BA, DA, and SW. Which means there are 5 loyalists
For chaos there are 9 legions.
What do you be over half means 10, and those 10 are 5 loyalist(all of them) and 5 chaos legions(non cult)
So:
Salamanders
Raven Guard
White Scar
Imperial Fist
Ultramarines
Black Legion
Word Bearers
Iron Warriors
Alpha Legion
Night Lords

Honestly I dont know anything about Raven Guard and I thought IF were basically codex marines in yellow but they will probably get supplements.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

ANother anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:The mono-god legions will NOT be getting a supplement. It's felt they are well enough reflected in the codex. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers were given as Examples of Chaos Legion Supplements.

Yeah, those two sources say the exact opposite.

Raven Guard theoretically have codex organisation, but don't operate in a codex fashion. Companies operate more or less independently, and they emphasise stealth and rapid, overwhelming strikes against the weak points of an opposing army.

Personally, I've found the BA codex has allowed me to field what I felt was a representative RG force, I don't want to speculate overmuch, but scouts, infiltration, fast vehicles and ASM squads as troops could very well feature.

 azreal13 wrote:
Raven Guard theoretically have codex organisation, but don't operate in a codex fashion. Companies operate more or less independently, and they emphasise stealth and rapid, overwhelming strikes against the weak points of an opposing army.

Personally, I've found the BA codex has allowed me to field what I felt was a representative RG force, I don't want to speculate overmuch, but scouts, infiltration, fast vehicles and ASM squads as troops could very well feature.

and White Scar also emphasise rapid overwhelming strikes

and DA ravenwing also emphasise rapid overwhelming strikes


I concede I might just be ignorant about this stuff.

Which by their very definition you can't play in Warhammer 40K which tries (but doesn't always succeed) in balancing forces

so unless supplements allow 'crazy stuff' their signature styles are a no no

Neronoxx wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:

Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me

So basically your issue is that GW is the worst company in the world because they dont cater to your wishes?

Take a look at Grot 6's post history, specifically in GW threads, Neronoxx.

Imposter101 wrote:
I don't really see how the Black Legion warrant a codex of their own. As well as being the generic Chaos marine paint scheme for some time, alongside artwork and fluff. They don't do anything that cannot be done with the Chaos marine codex, nor are they really unique in any way. I wouldn't say however any of the Chaos legions really needs an expansion however.

Exactly. The last codex was based on them and not much as changed with the newest one. So what, you'll be able to take all Cult Units as troops without a character. The armies are still going to look exactly the same because GW has no idea how to internally balance their game. Nobody will run Thousand Sons, Khorne Bersekers, or Noise Marines regardless.

That's unfortunately what scares me too... I really wish this supplement would do something to give the codex a jolt but I don't think it's possible without changes to the core units.

Griever wrote:
Nobody will run ... Khorne Bersekers, or Noise Marines regardless.

If you really think so...

Maybe there will be a character that allows Demons to be purchased out of the Daemons codex but count as Primary detachment troops?? -- That would be cool!!

Diablix wrote:

Griever wrote:
Nobody will run ... Khorne Bersekers, or Noise Marines regardless.

If you really think so...

While he's wrong on the Noise Marines, he is right on the Bezerkers.

 Exergy wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are getting supplements eventually.

The elite unit entries in the core codex don't necessarily reflect World Eaters, just Khorne Berserkers, for example.

The Legion lists will have unit entries for Berserker/Plague/Rubric/Noise Terminators, unique warlord traits, and some fun wargear stuff.

ANother anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:The mono-god legions will NOT be getting a supplement. It's felt they are well enough reflected in the codex. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Word Bearers were given as Examples of Chaos Legion Supplements.

Yeah, those two sources say the exact opposite.

also from Faet212

Anonymous source on faeit212 wrote:
Just over half the space marine chapters of the first founding will receive a supplement.

So on the IoM side we already have BA, DA, and SW. Which means there are 5 loyalists
For chaos there are 9 legions.
What do you be over half means 10, and those 10 are 5 loyalist(all of them) and 5 chaos legions(non cult)
So:
Salamanders
Raven Guard
White Scar
Imperial Fist
Ultramarines
Black Legion
Word Bearers
Iron Warriors
Alpha Legion
Night Lords

Honestly I dont know anything about Raven Guard and I thought IF were basically codex marines in yellow but they will probably get supplements.

You forgot the Iron Hands. Don't feel bad, GW have as well, apparently

Bah, CSM got heldrakes. Why do they need anything else to help them?

COming from a Marines player with acces to 3++ wargear, its pretty funny...

I much prefer having a hard copy. I don't want to have to buy an Ipad version, but the lag time between digital and hardback is huge...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Diablix wrote:

Griever wrote:
Nobody will run ... Khorne Bersekers, or Noise Marines regardless.

If you really think so...

While he's wrong on the Noise Marines, he is right on the Bezerkers.

While I agree that Khorne Berzerkers are IMHO overpriced, I saw both in real life and in this forum's battle reports people running them. And not just one in a million.
Noise Marines (I know you agree, I'm just speaking in general) are tied up with Plague Marines to be the best troop choice available to Chaos, depending on what you want/need. Sure Plague Marines are THE unit to defend objectives, but Noise Marines are a wonderful alternative, being cheaper and more versatile.

Fearless, with access to Feel No Pain, 3 different special Weapons that ignores cover (2 of them with AP3). Can be kitted and used as Assault, Counter-Assault, Mid-Range or Long-Range support based on how you need them to be. I'd kill to have an Eternal Warrior HQ choice (or even better some sort of special rule) that unlocks them as troop.

Said that, this is no place to talk about that. Can't wait to see what this supplement will offer. Just hope it will be at least slightly better than the previous two..

 Sasori wrote:
I much prefer having a hard copy. I don't want to have to buy an Ipad version, but the lag time between digital and hardback is huge...

Same here. This is why, as much as I like some of the idea of the new supplements (but my god the pricing scheme is just...no.) I loathe their current format. Sure, I appreciate them trying to move with the times - but when I go to an event or tournament I really don't want to lug along an ipad or e-reader that could get damaged, dropped or lost whereas a hard copy generally won't because it's larger, has a bit more weight to it and you're probably going to keep it in your hands that bit more.

re: this being equivalent to supplement: ultramarines. The supplement books are 98% fluff & pictures, & only 2% rules. They're about the fluff. With the current SM book, the fluff and art revolves around the Ultramarines. The codex cover is an ultramarine. The fluff is mostly from Ultramarine perspective. There are several Ultramarine special characters, and even a unique unit for ultramarines.

The same is not true for Black Legion in the CSM book. The cover art is not a Black Legionnaire. The Black Legion are described, along with the other legions, and the crusades are mentioned, but they aren't the primary focus of the book. Abaddon is there, but no other BL characters or units. The Black Legion isn't particularly associated with any of the new units. The biggest section of fluff is on a failed space marine crusade leading to dozens of new renegade warbands.

Yes, the Black Legion are more or less the generic face of their faction the way the Ultramarines are for theirs, but while the current codex: SM is very much a 'codex ultramarines', the same just can't be said for Black Legion and the current codex: CSM.


Since the supplement line so far has been primarily fluff and not rules, the Black Legion is actually a pretty good fit. They don't need much in terms of rules or models, but they do need a new injection of personality, which a book of fluff could give them. I mean, compare again to ultramarines. They aren't just 'generic, blank slate space marines', they've got their anti-tyranid thing, they've got their classical greek thing, they've got several well fleshed out personalities, they've got their ruling ultramar gimmick.

The black legion, ever since their ascendancy, have been lacking in that kind of personality, and if the supplement could add some in, then that would be fantastic, imo.


Iron Warriors or Night Lords might have been equally good choices, I suppose, not because they need extra rules to function, but rather because their particular gimmicks could help sell the newer CSM models - daemon engines, warp smiths, and maulers on the IW side; raptors and warp talons on the night lords end. But when the Legion that is supposed to be the face of the CSM faction in general is considered 'boring' by many, that seems to me to be something that warrants immediate attention.


As for the legions that do need extra rules, the cult legions in particular? Well most of them don't just need new rules, but new models & units, or in the case of 1k sons completely new rules for existing units. And because of the Chapterhous thing, none going to happen until GW has kits ready to go. I'd rather have to wait extra to get cult legions with updated cult rules and cult terminators and whatnot then get them first and not have the extra toys they need to function.

No, better for cult supplements to wait until the cult rules can be revived alongside new plastic cult boxes (with terminator conversion bits, maybe) & new plastic greater daemons, & maybe skullcrushers or the like.


The BL supplement is coming out with new new model releases, and maybe that's for the best that they're first then, because they don't need new models to function.

Hey Mali, Vesper here.
BnC is more often down than online these few months. It's getting annoying.

Hey, Vesper. Yeah, I wonder what the deal is this time. Hopefully nothing major.

 Rippy wrote:
I never understood why people come to a forum page about a GW product to tell everyone how they don't like GW.
Black Legion FTW!

Its not a phenomenon unique to GW. Visit any video game specific forum and you'll see the same thing. People who have made hundreds of posts on a Call of Duty website about how much they hate CoD and Activision. Heck, its one of the reasons GW shut down their own forum, because all it contained was page after page of hate. Its not that they truly hate the game or even the company that creates it. They are typically just mad about the newest version not catering to them (or removing something they used/abused).

Getting on a website about GW games and complaining about how the cost has just drove you away, and as a result, you are selling 4 armies totaling at 5K points each is beyond ridiculous, as it equates to saying, "I don't want to buy a couple of $80 models, so I'm selling the $10,000 in armies I've collected over the last 5-10 years." GW has ALWAYS been considered too expensive.

Anyway, back on subject. I personally think there is more to BL than what is represented in the CSM codex. In my opinion, I feel the CSM codex better represents the Word Bearers, with the abundance of cultists and daemonic units. Hopefully this codex supplement will expand on the generic HQ, giving them some kind of unique, chapter-specific rule kind of like C:SM chapter tactics. I'm not sure a true Black Legion army would even include cultists as troops, and I'm not certain Daemon Princes would be around either.

The Current CSM book has something for everyone, just not as many options nor as interesting ones as the 3.5 book had. But seriously:

BL: special character, options for mixed mark armies
Renegades: special character
Cult legions: special characters, option for troop cults
Alpha Legion: cultists
Iron Warriors: daemon engines, warpsmith
Word Bearers: apostles, allied daemons
Night Lords: new 'super raptor' warp talons.

Sure, a lot of that stuff isn't what particular CSM players might have wanted or been looking for. A lot of that wasn't really how the players of these subfactions thought about or defined them, even if it was how the 3.5 legion rules might have done so.

I'm not a big fan of the current CSM codex. I think it's not up to par with Kelly's other work. I think it shows a poor understanding of how the game rules have changed in 6e (ie: rhinos do not constitute a functional delivery system for assault-only infantry units like 'zerkers or possessed), and several units, rules, & options seem half baked, or ported without thought from either the previous CSM book or from Chaos Warriors in Fantasy without much thought to whether or why a given rule worked in its original context and how it might need to be adapted to CSMs in 6e 40k.

But it's not like the book is terrible, and it's not like it didn't at least try to give a nod to all the various and sundry chaos marine subfactions. It isn't codex: Black Legion, it's codex Chaos Space Marines. Maybe not the one we wanted, needed, or deserved, but that's still what it is.