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The one thing I wanted from this supplemen was chaos termies as troops, an abbadon deathwing list would be fun I think. From the sounds of it tho they have the new supplement just written hastily and without answer to the new c:sm.

It's another black crusade down the drain....

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yeah, you guys are reading this all wrong.

Chaos just got a 175 point CSM unit with 5 plasma that can score.

Who cares about warlord traits when I can run 6 of these squads and 3 heldrakes? Anything else is icing.

Must take VotLW, 195 points

I think people are getting carried away with the talk of 4 turkeys and are forgetting the original spam/cheese sandwich: obliterators. Now you can run 12!

bogalubov wrote:
I think people are getting carried away with the talk of 4 turkeys and are forgetting the original spam/cheese sandwich: obliterators. Now you can run 12!

I think you an addition too late.Oblits are certainly strong but are certainly not cheesy by any means with the restrictions and nerfs put on them this edition.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
I think people are getting carried away with the talk of 4 turkeys and are forgetting the original spam/cheese sandwich: obliterators. Now you can run 12!

I think you an addition too late.Oblits are certainly strong but are certainly not cheesy by any means with the restrictions and nerfs put on them this edition.

Despite the nerf, the oblits still remain a strong pillar of the CSM codex. That might be more reflective of the general quality of the CSM codex, but they are still a unit that does a lot of heavy lifting in my lists.

bogalubov wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
I think people are getting carried away with the talk of 4 turkeys and are forgetting the original spam/cheese sandwich: obliterators. Now you can run 12!

I think you an addition too late.Oblits are certainly strong but are certainly not cheesy by any means with the restrictions and nerfs put on them this edition.

Despite the nerf, the oblits still remain a strong pillar of the CSM codex. That might be more reflective of the general quality of the CSM codex, but they are still a unit that does a lot of heavy lifting in my lists.

sure they are perfectly useable, but I think think having 3 more is going to be gamechaning at all.

A 4th heldrake is not going to change anything either.

3 more oblits can get you to a point where you're even less worried about other heldrakes.

4 Heldrakes @ 2,000 Pts or lower will actually make your list worse. The best performing CSM lists run 2 Heldrakes.
If you run into a 2+ heavy army or a list with a lot of anti-air you are done.

Same thing with 12 Oblits. It won't work well @ 2,000 Pts because of the cost.

I would still like a complete run down on the new Terminator rules. Can someone confirm 100% if there is a way to make them score?

bogalubov wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

bogalubov wrote:
I think people are getting carried away with the talk of 4 turkeys and are forgetting the original spam/cheese sandwich: obliterators. Now you can run 12!

I think you an addition too late.Oblits are certainly strong but are certainly not cheesy by any means with the restrictions and nerfs put on them this edition.

Despite the nerf, the oblits still remain a strong pillar of the CSM codex. That might be more reflective of the general quality of the CSM codex, but they are still a unit that does a lot of heavy lifting in my lists.

That doesn't make them qualify as cheesy though, even if spammed. Actually I think they are better in moderation than spammed given that high armour save isn't what it used to be.

Are there any restrictions on taking special characters apart from Abaddon from the main book? I didn't think that would be allowed, but I haven't heard anything about it.

If the other characters are still allowed, than infiltrating those scoring plasma chosen via Huron or Ahriman may be an interesting option.

That would be quite interesting

After checking it out on a friends Ipad, i can safely say that I am looking forward to it getting a hardback release.
I like the new toys and different rules that I can chose from, I reckon some of the stuff in it would be quite fun to try.

 Malisteen wrote:
Are there any restrictions on taking special characters apart from Abaddon from the main book? I didn't think that would be allowed, but I haven't heard anything about it.

If the other characters are still allowed, than infiltrating those scoring plasma chosen via Huron or Ahriman may be an interesting option.

This guys...

Let's absorb this some more before rendering this fugly.

I guess it makes sense. Kind of disappointing though.

I'm disappointed with what I've seen so far, but I'll probably use it for the Daemon sword, I feel I'll get more use out of it than the murder sword.

I'm interested in seeing some battle reports using it though.

So...wait!

You can have 4 heavy units? Or 4 units of Oblits?

o.O

Now have 4 two-man Oblits is very intriguing...

With allies, anybody can have four heavy support. The question is whether the fourth pair of obliterators is really better than what you could have gotten out of a Heavy Support slot taken from the daemon, guard, ork, necron, tau, farsignt, or dark eldar books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, primary detachment Black Legion led by warlord huron, allied detachment regular CSMs led by abaddon, with a unit of cheap, non-vet combiplas terminators and a max blob of cultists?

If huron rolls a '1' on Master of deception, infiltrate the terminators, and abby walks with the cultists, if huron rolls a '2' then abby goes with the terminators, and if huron rolls a '3' then a squad of combi plas chosen from the primary detachment get to go along for the ride?

2/3 of the time, you get to shove abaddon and a bunch of plasma fire right in the enemy's face. Not pretty. Maybe not good, either, but still.

 Malisteen wrote:
With allies, anybody can have four heavy support. The question is whether the fourth pair of obliterators is really better than what you could have gotten out of a Heavy Support slot taken from the daemon, guard, ork, necron, tau, farsignt, or dark eldar books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, primary detachment Black Legion led by warlord huron, allied detachment regular CSMs led by abaddon, with a unit of cheap, non-vet combiplas terminators and a max blob of cultists?

If huron rolls a '1' on Master of deception, infiltrate the terminators, and abby walks with the cultists, if huron rolls a '2' then abby goes with the terminators, and if huron rolls a '3' then a squad of combi plas chosen from the primary detachment get to go along for the ride?

2/3 of the time, you get to shove abaddon and a bunch of plasma fire right in the enemy's face. Not pretty. Maybe not good, either, but still.

if your not taking the vets upgrade on your termies, then why not make the BL the allies and save a bunch of points from needing to make everyone vets?

However it goes. Depends on what you want with the rest of the list. Only important parts are that Huron is main dex (whether CSM or BL), Abby is allied (again CSM or BL), and the terminators are from the CSM book (whether Allies or main dex), and plasma chosen, if any, are BL (again allied or main).

Main dex BL if you want more troop chosen or a third HQ with one of the BL artifacts, or basic CSMs if you don't.

 Malisteen wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, primary detachment Black Legion led by warlord huron, allied detachment regular CSMs led by abaddon, with a unit of cheap, non-vet combiplas terminators and a max blob of cultists?

If huron rolls a '1' on Master of deception, infiltrate the terminators, and abby walks with the cultists, if huron rolls a '2' then abby goes with the terminators, and if huron rolls a '3' then a squad of combi plas chosen from the primary detachment get to go along for the ride?

2/3 of the time, you get to shove abaddon and a bunch of plasma fire right in the enemy's face. Not pretty. Maybe not good, either, but still.

Couldn't you already do this?

 Zweischneid wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Because in the same way that Codex: Space Marines represents standard Codex Chapters, the Chaos Space Marines codex represents typical Chaos Space Marine forces. The best use for a supplement therefore is to flesh out non-typical forces.

The Chaos Space Marines Codex represents all Chaos Space Marines forces, just as the Codex: Space Marines represents a variety of non-Codex Chapters too.

While you may prefer that supplements flesh out some more exotic armies, that isn't what they do. The Codex Supplements flesh out iconic "events", "campaigns", etc.. in the 40K history (such as the fall of Iyanden), and no Chaos Space Marine faction has a more iconic/better-known "event" like that than the Black Legion's Black Crusades (with the Red Corsairs Badab War arguably being a close second).


The assumption that it is "deviation from norm-x" that justifies or not justifies a Codex Supplement (or a Codex even) is yours alone.

Ok, so let me paraphrase. supplements suck and arnt worth buying.

That's my assumption too actually, and tons of people's after browsing this thread. I think youre one of the few that likes the idea of pointless fluff books.

sennacherib wrote:
Couldn't you already do this?

Nope. If you include Abby in the primary detachment, then he has to be the warlord. Sure, you could field Huron along with him, but since Huron wouldn't be the warlord he wouldn't get his warlord trait, so no infiltrating.

Disappointed with CSM as a whole, the 6th edition codex was very lacking and had almost no representation for the traitor legions. I was hoping the supplement would fix this but alas they focus on the one legion that did not need support and they still do a bad job on it, yet the new Space Marine codex gets individual rules for all the first founding chapters and then some. I feel pretty betrayed by GW as a csm player at this point.

I guess I'm just used to it? I don't know. I've got nothing but complaints about the handling of CSMs this edition, yet I'm still super keen on playing them. Over in fantasy, I think the Vamp Counts book is literally the best faction book GW has produced since the 5th edition Undead, and yet I have no motivation to play or paint.

Can't say what it is. But anyway, my expectations for this supplement were low, at least when it comes to the rules, so I'm not disappointed now. Just excited to be painting models and getting some custom rules for my very favorite Chaos subfaction. Even 3.5 didn't give me that, so ... yeah. Yay, me.

I wouldn't say everything is lost just yet. I'd give it alittle time to see if things like termies shooting on 2+ to hit, having eternal warrior dp's back in, and the other subtle tweaks play out into anything clever by those not swayed by the math-hammer world.

And 3.5 is still the most comprehensive book CSM have been graced with.

Eternal warrior DP, now that is a nice change, I had not even thought of that.

With tha latest rumors on Faeit nlog, there is the 4 Chaos books supplement in the going,( like the guy said in the other thread).

The Staff guys at Games Day also said that the supplements will go further in complexity and modifications to existing units as they comes out.

Iyanden Farsight and BL being the first 3, gotta wait to see if the following would be worth it.

personnaly giving VotLW to everyone isn't really an issue for me, seeing that i allready do it, just love to reroll all those attacks Vs marines.

But they should have given it to Chosen and Termies for free

It's rules less than inspired, and there were certainly some missed opportunities, but I'm still pretty happy & excited.

As for the cult books - sounds a lot like wishlisting to me, but could be cool if true. Especially if they provide an excuse for GW to release new models. Such cult books really would be screaming out for new plastic cult units and greater daemons.

Then again, the black legion book was screaming out for new Abaddon and Chosen models, and we don't seem to be getting those (at least not yet, we'll see about in November when the hardcover is supposed to be released).

I was thinking the same thing the other day, that they should have released a plastic Chosen boxset!?! I love the Chosen from Dark Vengeance and wish that they would release more models of the same caliber that I would use as either Chosen of just plain old Chaos Space Marines. I alsways thought that Chaos space marines should look like the chosen is Dark Vengeance.

kb305 wrote:
Ok, so let me paraphrase. supplements suck and arnt worth buying.

That's my assumption too actually, and tons of people's after browsing this thread. I think youre one of the few that likes the idea of pointless fluff books.

Actually, pointless fluff books are fine, and a great idea. Many players enjoy the background of the game, and would buy such things for the same reason they bought, say, the book of Jes Goodwin's random sketches.

What I have an issue with is a pointless fluff book that include two pages of extra rules for a faction that doesn't need them, as this forces people who otherwise wouldn't want to buy a pointless fluff book to pick it up if they want to stay current with the full rules of this game. Put the rules in the codex. Or if you must release supplements, include enough rules in them to make them a worthwhile purchase for those who aren't as interested in the background. As a 'Legions' supplement, this book might have been worth considering. As is? Not so much.