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 rapterz wrote:
Stupidest thing i've heard: "its too expensive, imma go play magic".

It's funny because magic is actually cheaper.

 sing your life wrote:
What are the most blatantly incorrect or plain idiotic things you've heard said a bout a tabletop game-related subject?

For me it's got to be this:

uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Games_Workshop

"OMFG wargaming SUCKS I'm, off to play CALL OF watch the language please. Reds8n DUTY!!!!!!"

please only nominate stuff said by fans or player please.

p.s: this is not a GW hate thread [as much as some want it to be]

I don't honestly understand what you are asking here.

rigeld2 wrote:

 rapterz wrote:
Stupidest thing i've heard: "its too expensive, imma go play magic".

It's funny because magic is actually cheaper.

Yeah, I didn't really follow this one either...

rigeld2 wrote:

 rapterz wrote:
Stupidest thing i've heard: "its too expensive, imma go play magic".

It's funny because magic is actually cheaper.

I lol'd. Magic is only cheaper if you look at short term purchases. Long term, magic will take a much heftier toll on the 'ol wallet.

Lets look at a typical tournament set up for instance:

A 40k eldar army, 2000 points, costs around $500-$750 depending on build. Books and models included.
A Magic deck, decent, will cost around, say $100 if you buy packs, about $50 if you go singles. For the sake of argument I'm assuming that you're not buying three booster boxes every set that comes out (which, lets face it, if your a magic tournament player, you are)

Winner: Magic

One year from now, that Eldar army will not have changed and will still be accepted at tournaments. Two years from now, same story, three years from now, same story. You may have to buy another $75 core Rulebook somewhere in there. If I wanted to, I could run a rogue trader Eldar army with the new rules in a tournament so long as everything looked like it should look (wysiwyg).

Magic, however, forces you to constantly upgrade your deck to play standard tournaments. That means that any cards that you have in your deck from an older set are not allowed in the tournament. At all. New sets come out every quarter, meaning that an older set becomes obsolete every quarter. Did you build a standard Avacyn Restored deck? Tough luck. Dragon's Maze came out in May, making all of your Avacyn restored cards unusable. So what's the best way to to get a new deck built? Singles of course. Do people buy singles? Yes, they do. But they also buy booster boxes as the most cost-effective way to get the new cards quickly (excluding singles). Lots of market research has gone into this, and those consumer psychologists and marketing pros have learned that random positive reinforcement is the most effective method of reinforcement to a consumer. Booster boxes list at $85-$115 per box. By three of those per set, which will give you a pretty good spread of most of the cards in that set (most, not all mind you, which is where those singles come in) and you've already spent about half of what the Eldar army cost us. Now multiply that times 4. You're now over the cost of the Eldar army by a very generous amount. Now do that again every year. I can do the numbers, but surely by now anyone can see that the whole idea that magic is cheaper (or most card games for that matter as many follow the magic model) is simply not true.

Now, you could play a different format, or you just play with friends so those purchasing rules don't apply, at which point I could spin it the same way with 40k and say that I only play kill teams which is probably still cheaper...

 Polonius wrote:
The statemetn about games in general that bugs me "quick to learn, hard to master."

It's the game marketing equivilent to "pro painted."

Isn't that the tagline for every Mantic ruleset or boardgame?

godswildcard wrote:
Lets look at a typical tournament set up for instance:

Only relevant if you are actually playing in tournaments.

I've been playing magic with my brother and his son for 3 years now, and the total cash outlay for all three of us combined has been aound $60.

While watching a demo game on a new game the host said "Don't worry, this isn't like 40k, this game is actually fun."

While not stupid, just caught me off guard.

godswildcard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 rapterz wrote:
Stupidest thing i've heard: "its too expensive, imma go play magic".

It's funny because magic is actually cheaper.

I lol'd. Magic is only cheaper if you look at short term purchases. Long term, magic will take a much heftier toll on the 'ol wallet.

Lets look at a typical tournament set up for instance:

A 40k eldar army, 2000 points, costs around $500-$750 depending on build. Books and models included.
A Magic deck, decent, will cost around, say $100 if you buy packs, about $50 if you go singles. For the sake of argument I'm assuming that you're not buying three booster boxes every set that comes out (which, lets face it, if your a magic tournament player, you are)

Winner: Magic

One year from now, that Eldar army will not have changed and will still be accepted at tournaments. Two years from now, same story, three years from now, same story. You may have to buy another $75 core Rulebook somewhere in there. If I wanted to, I could run a rogue trader Eldar army with the new rules in a tournament so long as everything looked like it should look (wysiwyg).

Magic, however, forces you to constantly upgrade your deck to play standard tournaments. That means that any cards that you have in your deck from an older set are not allowed in the tournament. At all. New sets come out every quarter, meaning that an older set becomes obsolete every quarter. Did you build a standard Avacyn Restored deck? Tough luck. Dragon's Maze came out in May, making all of your Avacyn restored cards unusable. So what's the best way to to get a new deck built? Singles of course. Do people buy singles? Yes, they do. But they also buy booster boxes as the most cost-effective way to get the new cards quickly (excluding singles). Lots of market research has gone into this, and those consumer psychologists and marketing pros have learned that random positive reinforcement is the most effective method of reinforcement to a consumer. Booster boxes list at $85-$115 per box. By three of those per set, which will give you a pretty good spread of most of the cards in that set (most, not all mind you, which is where those singles come in) and you've already spent about half of what the Eldar army cost us. Now multiply that times 4. You're now over the cost of the Eldar army by a very generous amount. Now do that again every year. I can do the numbers, but surely by now anyone can see that the whole idea that magic is cheaper (or most card games for that matter as many follow the magic model) is simply not true.

Now, you could play a different format, or you just play with friends so those purchasing rules don't apply, at which point I could spin it the same way with 40k and say that I only play kill teams which is probably still cheaper...

Magic is extremely cheaper if you play casually. Magic is extremely more expensive if you play Standard/competitively.

 insaniak wrote:

godswildcard wrote:
Lets look at a typical tournament set up for instance:

Only relevant if you are actually playing in tournaments.

I've been playing magic with my brother and his son for 3 years now, and the total cash outlay for all three of us combined has been aound $60.

Yeah i meant competitive play, as I find a game really only compelling if I (emphasis on the I) can play it "seriously". I agree that magic is cheaper if its casual and if thats your thing dats cool. Those goons telling me my hobby is a joke monetarily while buying up a block of cards are infuriating.

 Polonius wrote:
The PP elitism thing has two aspects. One is that a huge number of players came over from 40k, and often legitimatly find huge aspects of the rules that are superious. After a decade of playing 40k, I was pretty pleasantly surprised by a lot of the PP rules.

the other is the sort of rabid, irrational partisanship that only fanbois exhibit.

Sega does what Nintendon't!

in my personal experience warmachine players are akin to old caricatures of the d&d player. they dont bathe they smell and are as obstinate as d&d players used to be.

at my local we got away from gw for awhile based on their stupidity...and we started warmachine.. small armies 25 points or less we had 8 or so people playing.. well word got out and then THEY showed up..we had been playing for like 3 weeks and all of a sudden we were being challenged to 50 point or more games and they were demanding 50-100 point tournements

my retribution army is sitting on my shelf primed in white and hasnt been played since... and i cant remember the last warmachine game ive seen at the store... like anything in life, there were some really nice guys that showed up but it was like putting sharks in the kiddy pool it just wasnt the right time

Magic costs almost nothing if you play casual or Pauper, and eye watering amounts to play Legacy. You can chose your approach depending on what you want to spend. I know people who only draft every now and again.

What's the GW equivalent of Pauper mtg? There isn't one. They axed all their smaller games. A single finecast figure will cost more than a pauper deck. I recently built a pauper deck for almost nothing, paid £4 to enter it and won two boosters at the end of the day. Can you do that with GW? No.

The approach to Mtg can be very much decided by the player, with a range of formats and buy in costs. GW is a lot more rigid in that their products are largely similar and based on a lot of high cost sales. If you want skirmish 49k games you're better off looking for another ruleset.

 Grot 6 wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
What are the most blatantly incorrect or plain idiotic things you've heard said a bout a tabletop game-related subject?

For me it's got to be this:

uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Games_Workshop

"OMFG wargaming SUCKS I'm, off to play CALL OF watch the language please. Reds8n DUTY!!!!!!"

please only nominate stuff said by fans or player please.

p.s: this is not a GW hate thread [as much as some want it to be]

I don't honestly understand what you are asking here.

Why? All the other users correctly read it.

godswildcard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 rapterz wrote:
Stupidest thing i've heard: "its too expensive, imma go play magic".

It's funny because magic is actually cheaper.

I lol'd. Magic is only cheaper if you look at short term purchases. Long term, magic will take a much heftier toll on the 'ol wallet.

Lets look at a typical tournament set up for instance:

A 40k eldar army, 2000 points, costs around $500-$750 depending on build. Books and models included.
A Magic deck, decent, will cost around, say $100 if you buy packs, about $50 if you go singles. For the sake of argument I'm assuming that you're not buying three booster boxes every set that comes out (which, lets face it, if your a magic tournament player, you are)

Winner: Magic

One year from now, that Eldar army will not have changed and will still be accepted at tournaments. Two years from now, same story, three years from now, same story. You may have to buy another $75 core Rulebook somewhere in there. If I wanted to, I could run a rogue trader Eldar army with the new rules in a tournament so long as everything looked like it should look (wysiwyg).

Assuming the meta doesn't change (Vehicles becoming weaker, scenery becoming vital) or you need new kits to stay competitive (fliers, FMC), then you're still arguing that 40k is cheaper than MTG until about 5 years (best case) or 15 years (worst case), unless you're seriously into competitive tournament play, in which case you'll be spending a lot more on 40k too.

Anything to do with synergy, meta and combos.

That's to do with competing and gaming for advantage, not wargaming.

 notprop wrote:
Anything to do with synergy, meta and combos.

That's to do with competing and gaming for advantage, not wargaming.

So what exactly is "wargaming" if it doesn't include making sensible decisions based on the rules of the game and your past experiences? Do you just line up a bunch of models in a pretty formation, make some gun noises, and then put them away again?

 Absolutionis wrote:


On-topic, my 'stupid statement' about a game are strangers that make backhanded remarks in favor of Warmahordes by insulting 40k. It has happened several times in my presence. Once, it had happened when I wasn't even playing 40k. It was stupid.

With all due respect, i always find there are two sides to these stories.

What counts as "insulting" 40k?

Playing devil's advocate here:

Is this saying one is better than the other? Is that insulting? Is stating my preference insulting? Is describing why an insult? Or is it merely an explanation backing up an opinion?

How about an objective assessment about things? Bear in mind what im saying below is a few arguments youd be likely to hear. ANd to be fair, they would be arguments i stand by.

If i were to say that PP is vastly superior to GW in terms of its support to its players, with competitive play sponsored, frequent leagues, badges, trophies etc, not to mention frequent interaction with the fanbase. Heck, theyve even gone off and produced models (black dragon pikemen) after campaigns by the fans.

If i were to say that i find GW models silly and cartoony lately. that is quite subjective, but it is my point of view. I much prefer WMs cartoony models (vastly more character in my opinion), and even then, Corvus Belli are leagues ahead of both. Would this count as "insulting"?

If i were to say that i find PP fluff vastly more engaging and interesting than 40k fluff, how would you feel about that? If i were to say that honestly, ive lost almost all interest in 40k fluff aside from forgeword. its shoddily written (Kaldor Draigo) and irredeemably silly. In my mind, for all my love of the older fluff (armageddon, the gothic sector war, battle of the fang etc etc) , to me, 40k has gone from grimdark to grimderp. PPs stuff on the other hand is a hidden gem, and after reading through the RPG material, i find the breadth, scope, detail, grittiness and character of the world to be vastly superior to GW offerings.

If i were to say that GW write terrible rules. that GW rules are clunky, and full of bagage, and are weighed down by their own fat and needless excess. a lot of it could be stripped out and rewritten, but they insist on pushing a fundamentally flawed system. 3-rolls, the AP system, different damage mechanisms, ridiculous amounts of USRs instead of a movement value. Compared to how Flames of War, Warmachine, or Infinity operate, 40k rules are terrible. Add to this the sheer lack of balance, both internally, and externally and it is a severely flawed platform. I recently introduced a long time 40k player to Infinity (found out by chance he was a gamer) and ended up taking him over to a mates place for a game of flames of war. He's literally converted overnight. and now he shakes his head at 40k. He looks at flames of war and says "why couldnt 40k be this!?"

Now, here is my point. You could take what i've written above as being "insulting", or you could take it as someones analysis of the games they love. I, and other people are fully entitled to our opinions on things. Now, its one thing to be rabid about one system (or against a system) based on lies and misconceptions - and that is something i fundamentally disagree with. But if you can be rational, and objective about it, its a whole other story. And here is the other side of the coin. What one takes as being insulting isnt necessarily meant as such from the other guy. Not everyone says negative things about GW as a trollish attempt to belittle you. Not everything that sounds negative needs to be taken personally, or seen as a direct and personal insult either.

there are always two sides to things. and the middle.

 Peregrine wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Anything to do with synergy, meta and combos.

That's to do with competing and gaming for advantage, not wargaming.

So what exactly is "wargaming" if it doesn't include making sensible decisions based on the rules of the game and your past experiences? Do you just line up a bunch of models in a pretty formation, make some gun noises, and then put them away again?

No, do you just mathhammer (when I'm King those that use this word in IRL will be first against the wall) possibilities without getting you models from the sprues?

To me it's about playing a game for fun.

The flip side is gaming a system go improve probability to gain better results. I'll pass on this as the result has overtaken the enjoyment of playing.

To succeed with a given or even random force is an enjoyable tactical/strategic challenge to both players (chess as a basic example), min-maxing to kerb-stomp known/preferred/common builds is not enjoyable for both players or if you are like me either player. The latter is ultimately dull whether you are the winner or loser and debatably a challenge.

Gaming to Advantage is an aberration of the intent of most games and when taken to extremes it turns into tick/tack/toe or Rock/Paper/Scissor with [unpainted?] miniatures and calls from the powergamer who lost of broken lists/unbalance and all that other verbiage. To spend your valuable free time doing this when you could be enjoying yourself with others is stupid.

 Peregrine wrote:
Stupidest thing I've ever heard about a wargame: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/539184.page

Well played sir, well played

godswildcard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 rapterz wrote:
Stupidest thing i've heard: "its too expensive, imma go play magic".

It's funny because magic is actually cheaper.

I lol'd. Magic is only cheaper if you look at short term purchases. Long term, magic will take a much heftier toll on the 'ol wallet.

Lets look at a typical tournament set up for instance:

A 40k eldar army, 2000 points, costs around $500-$750 depending on build. Books and models included.
A Magic deck, decent, will cost around, say $100 if you buy packs, about $50 if you go singles. For the sake of argument I'm assuming that you're not buying three booster boxes every set that comes out (which, lets face it, if your a magic tournament player, you are)

If you're a tournament player you're getting a significant amount of free packs even if you never place. Name a 40k tournament where you get a free box of minis just for attending (I don't mean the huge ones like Adepticon, etc. that have sponsors)

Magic, however, forces you to constantly upgrade your deck to play standard tournaments. That means that any cards that you have in your deck from an older set are not allowed in the tournament. At all. New sets come out every quarter, meaning that an older set becomes obsolete every quarter. Did you build a standard Avacyn Restored deck? Tough luck. Dragon's Maze came out in May, making all of your Avacyn restored cards unusable.

Close but no cigar.
Innistrad was released Sept. 2011 and doesn't rotate until Sept 2013.
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Standard

I can do the numbers, but surely by now anyone can see that the whole idea that magic is cheaper (or most card games for that matter as many follow the magic model) is simply not true.

Even a casual tournament player that never places gets free packs. And you're ignoring the fact that post rotation many cards still have good value and can be traded to stores for packs. I haven't spent a dime buying magic cards for about a year. I've got one strong deck and a few fun decks.

Now, you could play a different format, or you just play with friends so those purchasing rules don't apply, at which point I could spin it the same way with 40k and say that I only play kill teams which is probably still cheaper...

At least you didn't go after the $3,000 decks for Legacy - which I'd compare to Apoc and come out significantly cheaper.

rigeld2 wrote:
Even a casual tournament player that never places gets free packs. And you're ignoring the fact that post rotation many cards still have good value and can be traded to stores for packs. I haven't spent a dime buying magic cards for about a year. I've got one strong deck and a few fun decks.

I've not gotten a free pack of cards since starting playing magic tournaments again. I've got a foil FNM Judge's Familar... Not saying it's not true, I'd just like to know where these tournaments are so I can get free gak

I get mercy packs every FNM and draft night. Maybe your FLGS gives out more packs for placing? I thought it was a normal thing.

rigeld2 wrote:
I get mercy packs every FNM and draft night. Maybe your FLGS gives out more packs for placing? I thought it was a normal thing.

My store, while it has a large magic crowd (20 kids at least on Fridays), only about 6 to 8 of them want to actually play competitively, so they often scrape to get enough to get a sanctioned event. Idk why, I see kids buying like 2 to 3 packs, and then buying at least 5 dollars in food and drinks... Why not spend that money on a tournament fee and try out your ability to play? I'm very much not apart from that crowd, so when I entered my first tournament in a long while people who knew I did minis gaming were like, "Wtf, why are you down here?" I would just tell them I wanted a challenge, nothing seemed more challenging than playing a competitive game I suck at .

I think instead of the mercy packs, we get the promo cards... The last tournament I was in had something like this for prizes:

1st: 15 dollars store credit, FNM Promo Card
2nd: 10 dollars store credit, FNM Promo Card
3rd: 5 dollars store credit, FNM Promo Card
4th - 8th FNM Promo Card

rigeld2 wrote:

godswildcard wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 rapterz wrote:
Stupidest thing i've heard: "its too expensive, imma go play magic".

It's funny because magic is actually cheaper.

I lol'd. Magic is only cheaper if you look at short term purchases. Long term, magic will take a much heftier toll on the 'ol wallet.

Lets look at a typical tournament set up for instance:

A 40k eldar army, 2000 points, costs around $500-$750 depending on build. Books and models included.
A Magic deck, decent, will cost around, say $100 if you buy packs, about $50 if you go singles. For the sake of argument I'm assuming that you're not buying three booster boxes every set that comes out (which, lets face it, if your a magic tournament player, you are)

If you're a tournament player you're getting a significant amount of free packs even if you never place. Name a 40k tournament where you get a free box of minis just for attending (I don't mean the huge ones like Adepticon, etc. that have sponsors)

Magic, however, forces you to constantly upgrade your deck to play standard tournaments. That means that any cards that you have in your deck from an older set are not allowed in the tournament. At all. New sets come out every quarter, meaning that an older set becomes obsolete every quarter. Did you build a standard Avacyn Restored deck? Tough luck. Dragon's Maze came out in May, making all of your Avacyn restored cards unusable.

Close but no cigar.
Innistrad was released Sept. 2011 and doesn't rotate until Sept 2013.
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Standard

I can do the numbers, but surely by now anyone can see that the whole idea that magic is cheaper (or most card games for that matter as many follow the magic model) is simply not true.

Even a casual tournament player that never places gets free packs. And you're ignoring the fact that post rotation many cards still have good value and can be traded to stores for packs. I haven't spent a dime buying magic cards for about a year. I've got one strong deck and a few fun decks.

Now, you could play a different format, or you just play with friends so those purchasing rules don't apply, at which point I could spin it the same way with 40k and say that I only play kill teams which is probably still cheaper...

At least you didn't go after the $3,000 decks for Legacy - which I'd compare to Apoc and come out significantly cheaper.

Good post man! And good catch on the innistrad block. I only played Magic Tourneys for about 6 months before I tapped out.

Just a few things on the above. If you haven't bought any magic cards in about a year, instead trading cards for packs and getting the free packs at tournaments to assembled your decks, you have to know that you are in the minority here. WoTC wouldn't stay in business if you were their normal magic tournament playing customer. The people that I know and play with seem to have bottomless pockets when it comes to this stuff. Yeah, we could flip that argument with 40K players doing the same thing, but by in large even the tournament players I know stick with their armies for about 2 years before shelving it for the next hotness. While the argument '40K involves you keeping up with the meta and buying new units' is valid, if all you're doing is buying new units, you're still behind the cost power curve set by Magic. I'm not making stuff up when I say the local Magic players (which are an uber competitive group, mind you) buy three booster boxes each, MINIMUM, when the new set releases (I know this because I tried to hang with them for 6 months, and that's when I went back to warhammer). That's a minimum of $85/ box after our FLGS discount. Times three boxes, times 4 sets per year. After my initial example with that elder army, that army will be good to go for quite some time, at least a year before meta changes, likely closer to two to three years before editions change. So split the difference and say that our Eldar army only requires us to purchase, say, $200 worth of new units every 2 years, you're still cheaper than Magic. Total cost of that Eldar army after two years of initial purchase: less than $1000. Our magic players have spent over twice that in the same amount of time. I won't even get into the tournament players that substantial amounts of free models every tournament they go to, thus nullifying the need to purchase those new units with their hard earned cash.

Getting into legacy is a whole new ball game, and I left that out for a reason, but since it's involved now, why not? Yep, a good legacy deck will run you about that $3000. You can also spend less than that, but if you're not dropping a couple of grand on legacy you can forget winning anything. What Apocalypse army are you talking about that costs remotely close to that amount? I can show links to Apoc armies you can buy for full retail on GW's website that cost about 1/3 of that. Let's use this one:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1120011a&prodId=prod2080046a
A space marine 1st company army is a good bet if you're looking for a good apocalypse army, and that's $1157 for everything. I can get the whole thing through my FLGS for $925.60. That is about 3500-4000 points of apocalyptic goodness right out of the box. I'll be crazy here and add in some superheavies: A forgeworld Thunderhawk and heresy era Fellblade and you're spending another $836.98, adding in another 1200 points or so (not sure, don't know the cost of the fellblade, but the thunderhawk is about 900 points by itself). And now since I want to have a decent 1st company army, I'll grab 7 drop pods and a land raider for my marines to go in, and I'll top it off with Marneus Calgar and his honor guard. That's another $394, or $315.20 after my FLGS discount. So if you're doing the math on this army, which is now in excess of 5000 points, you've spent $2387.98 or $1910.38 if you get my discount. STILL less than that legacy deck. By about another 40K armies worth. Yeah, you could continue to expand that army in your head until it surpasses the legacy deck, but then I can say that given enough time you're going to continue to incorporate expensive cards into the same legacy deck, so you're still coming out ahead.

The thing is, most magic players I've talked to don't really know how much they spend on this stuff. It just kind of flies under the radar for them, and that creates this viewpoint that they don't spend that much, which is where these arguments come from. But, all that said, exceptions do exist. I've got a pretty competitive group of magic players and 40K players, so I'm just going off my experience. YMMV.

 notprop wrote:


To me it's about playing a game for fun.

The flip side is gaming a system go improve probability to gain better results. I'll pass on this as the result has overtaken the enjoyment of playing.

To succeed with a given or even random force is an enjoyable tactical/strategic challenge to both players (chess as a basic example), min-maxing to kerb-stomp known/preferred/common builds is not enjoyable for both players or if you are like me either player. The latter is ultimately dull whether you are the winner or loser and debatably a challenge.

Gaming to Advantage is an aberration of the intent of most games and when taken to extremes it turns into tick/tack/toe or Rock/Paper/Scissor with [unpainted?] miniatures and calls from the powergamer who lost of broken lists/unbalance and all that other verbiage. To spend your valuable free time doing this when you could be enjoying yourself with others is stupid.

And what happens when that competitive wargaming (ie building an army based on clever synergies and combos) is what I consider to be fun? Is it the wrong kind of fun? Is my different fun wrong? Is my kind of fun fundamentally inferior to yours?

Regarding given and random armies, that defeats a fundamental point of wargaming: choice - 'my' army. You're telling me a game without choice is bad. No thanks. Winning with a random or pre set army is in no way superior than winning with an army built with synergy in mind - stop bringing elitist. Gaming to advantage similarly is a very negative take on pushing your army and pushing yourself to be all it, and all you can be. I see no difference between pushing yourself to be a better general with better and cleverer use of the assets at your disposal than desiring to be a better runner with cleverer kit, tactics and training regimes. More power to you

 Alfndrate wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I get mercy packs every FNM and draft night. Maybe your FLGS gives out more packs for placing? I thought it was a normal thing.

My store, while it has a large magic crowd (20 kids at least on Fridays), only about 6 to 8 of them want to actually play competitively, so they often scrape to get enough to get a sanctioned event. Idk why, I see kids buying like 2 to 3 packs, and then buying at least 5 dollars in food and drinks... Why not spend that money on a tournament fee and try out your ability to play? I'm very much not apart from that crowd, so when I entered my first tournament in a long while people who knew I did minis gaming were like, "Wtf, why are you down here?" I would just tell them I wanted a challenge, nothing seemed more challenging than playing a competitive game I suck at .

I think instead of the mercy packs, we get the promo cards... The last tournament I was in had something like this for prizes:

1st: 15 dollars store credit, FNM Promo Card
2nd: 10 dollars store credit, FNM Promo Card
3rd: 5 dollars store credit, FNM Promo Card
4th - 8th FNM Promo Card

Yeah, only our top 4 get promo cards, but everyone gets a pack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

godswildcard wrote:
Just a few things on the above. If you haven't bought any magic cards in about a year, instead trading cards for packs and getting the free packs at tournaments to assembled your decks, you have to know that you are in the minority here.

Sure, but a 40k tournament player that only has one army and never buys another model is even more of a minority.

So split the difference and say that our Eldar army only requires us to purchase, say, $200 worth of new units every 2 years, you're still cheaper than Magic. Total cost of that Eldar army after two years of initial purchase: less than $1000. Our magic players have spent over twice that in the same amount of time. I won't even get into the tournament players that substantial amounts of free models every tournament they go to, thus nullifying the need to purchase those new units with their hard earned cash.

So you're comparing uber competitive Magic players to a slightly competitive single army tournament player. Um.
And what free models? I've only ever seen store credit if you win (getting 3rd rarely gets anything at small tournaments). There's nothing like the FNM promos or mercy packs.

Getting into legacy is a whole new ball game, and I left that out for a reason, but since it's involved now, why not? Yep, a good legacy deck will run you about that $3000. You can also spend less than that, but if you're not dropping a couple of grand on legacy you can forget winning anything. What Apocalypse army are you talking about that costs remotely close to that amount? I can show links to Apoc armies you can buy for full retail on GW's website that cost about 1/3 of that. Let's use this one:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1120011a&prodId=prod2080046a
A space marine 1st company army is a good bet if you're looking for a good apocalypse army, and that's $1157 for everything. I can get the whole thing through my FLGS for $925.60. That is about 3500-4000 points of apocalyptic goodness right out of the box. I'll be crazy here and add in some superheavies: A forgeworld Thunderhawk and heresy era Fellblade and you're spending another $836.98, adding in another 1200 points or so (not sure, don't know the cost of the fellblade, but the thunderhawk is about 900 points by itself). And now since I want to have a decent 1st company army, I'll grab 7 drop pods and a land raider for my marines to go in, and I'll top it off with Marneus Calgar and his honor guard. That's another $394, or $315.20 after my FLGS discount. So if you're doing the math on this army, which is now in excess of 5000 points, you've spent $2387.98 or $1910.38 if you get my discount. STILL less than that legacy deck. By about another 40K armies worth. Yeah, you could continue to expand that army in your head until it surpasses the legacy deck, but then I can say that given enough time you're going to continue to incorporate expensive cards into the same legacy deck, so you're still coming out ahead.

And you've completely ignored the cost to paint all of that. You spend all that money and have to assemble (and likely paint) all those models. Thats not free at all. It's just something 40k players tend to sweep under the rug. And the Legacy deck likely doesn't need to be tweaked like ever (or if it does, it'll be relatively inexpensive as the biggest cost is the land base).

Deadnight wrote:
..........stuff...........

All games are by their nature competitive; you appear to be alluding to the casual/tournament discussion and defending your own take on that.

It doesn't matter to me what force you take or what the result is, wargaming is about taking part and the enjoyment gained.

If you enjoy researching synergy/combos, mathhammering and min-maxing/list building and are focusing your energies on that, then obviously that's not wargaming, you appear to enjoy bookkeeping and lawyering followed by some wargaming.

You are right though, gaming to advantage is negative, precisely why I denote it as stupid.

Where you are wrong is that you state that an optimised force is that same challenge as one that isn't, when clearly the former is better suited to dealing with whatever meta (gah!) is expected and is therefore less of a challenge.

Be all you can be? Take the route of least resistance more like.

Don't forget to take into account the cost of "accessories" when comparing magic to 40k. Does that $200 estimate take into account paint, glue, basing materials (and magnets for the extra-dedicated). Compare that to the cost of two packs of card sleeves, and a deck box (and a playmat for the extra-dedicated).

rigeld2 wrote:
And you've completely ignored the cost to paint all of that. You spend all that money and have to assemble (and likely paint) all those models. Thats not free at all. It's just something 40k players tend to sweep under the rug. And the Legacy deck likely doesn't need to be tweaked like ever (or if it does, it'll be relatively inexpensive as the biggest cost is the land base).

Wait, really? You want to get into that? Paint, brushes glue for that whole army....$50. My time is free for me to spend however I choose. If I choose to spend time assembling and painting an army, that doesn't cost anything whatsoever. That's why it's 'swept under the rug'. It's a non issue. I don't use the fact that you likely don't just look at your cards or open packs right before a game or something. Doesn't happen. Just like you spend time with Magic outside of the competitive circle, so to do warhammer players.

If you really want to go down that road, I'll spend less money and buy a painted army off of ebay or from Dakka. Yeah, cheaper than if I'd bought it new and done all of that myself. Painted used armies rarely go over retail cost for the models unless the paint job is something special. Average paint job? Yeah, cheaper by a fair amount usually. Meanwhile, Magic singles are still priced pretty much the same, so the difference grows. There is a used market for warhammer that I can access if I want to increase my level of savings. Not so much a used market for Magic.

But I'm done with this. Agree to disagree.

 notprop wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
..........stuff...........

All games are by their nature competitive; you appear to be alluding to the casual/tournament discussion and defending your own take on that.

It doesn't matter to me what force you take or what the result is, wargaming is about taking part and the enjoyment gained.

If you enjoy researching synergy/combos, mathhammering and min-maxing/list building and are focusing your energies on that, then obviously that's not wargaming, you appear to enjoy bookkeeping and lawyering followed by some wargaming.

You are right though, gaming to advantage is negative, precisely why I denote it as stupid.

Where you are wrong is that you state that an optimised force is that same challenge as one that isn't, when clearly the former is better suited to dealing with whatever meta (gah!) is expected and is therefore less of a challenge.

Be all you can be? Take the route of least resistance more like.

With all due respect, I have no intention of doing the wargaming version of clubbing baby seals to death. You seem to be taking the view that it's one or nothing. I'm as capable of a fun game as I am with competitive ones. The guys I play flames of war with are very casual. My war machine buddies are quite competitive. Both are fun.

I take offended to the comment that list building comes first and actual play is a distant concern. It's all part of the same hobby, whether it's the lore, painting, modelling, or playing. You can have fun gaming and pushing yourself at the same time. If I'm gymming or running I push myself as hard as I can. My friends do too. And I have fun too! I enjoy that burn At the end of it. Frankly calling it the path of least resistance is downright insulting to me. I enjoy that push - I enjoy finding that line and pushing myself beyond it. I see no difference with my desire to pushy self in terms of my fitness as I do with my wargaming. Fitter, faster, stronger. That's what I want in myself. And I enjoy that attitude in other aspects of mu life too. Doesn't mean I can't rein it in, enjoy a KFC and a crate of beer with chill out time too.

Also pushing optimised builds has a different meaning in different games. In war machine pretty much everything can be built into an effective game winning strategy. It's radically different to 40k where only a handful of viable builds exist. Now when everyone is pushing themselves at the same time, and pushing each other at the same time, you get a very engaging scene. It's one I genuinely enjoy. As do many others. Please don't dismiss it out of hand because it's not your cup of tea.