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 Redcruisair wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
In a Universe where Carnifexes can survive Cyclonic torpedos a nuclear bomb isn't going to do much.

There is absolutely no possible way you could ever convince me that a carnifex would be able to survive a fracking nuclear strike, when this dumb creature can die to a single frack grenade.

Tyranid 4th edition codex. World scoured clean by Cyclonic Torpedos, not a single living thing should be left. Adeptus Mechanicus explorer teams found a living Carnifex regenerating, and had to kill it with a lance strike from an orbiting ship.

If you're disregarding official fluff, then you've already conceded the argument.

Not to mention, it's not possible to kill a Carnifex with a single grenade (even a melta bomb wouldn't do it), though I'm sure some Black Library book has done it (let me guess, the Commisar Cain books, where none of it should be taken seriously as it's him embellishing his own story?).

 -Loki- wrote:
Tyranid 4th edition codex. World scoured clean by Cyclonic Torpedos, not a single living thing should be left. Adeptus Mechanicus explorer teams found a living Carnifex regenerating, and had to kill it with a lance strike from an orbiting ship.

That just means it didn't take a direct hit from a torpedo. That might mean it could survive a nuke with sufficient distance, but a direct hit is still going to vaporize it.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Are the large ground battles in 40k silly? somewhat. you forget that while these ground battles are happenening each sides fleet are up above them pounding away at each other. At leasts its not as Silly as "UNSC win most of the ground battle agianst the covenant.. while the covenant have full air and space supremacy".

It’s silly because at no point would an army ever be needed for anything other than as an occupation force. A large ground force serves no purpose when you have big ships that can blast entire world to ashes. All this is made even worse when these ships’ godly firepower is all the suddenly made obsolete by the enemy doing something as trivial as digging underground, or hiding inside a city with unbreakable void shields… Don’t get me wrong I’m not hating on 40k, but a lot its fluff is very silly IMO.

A.) Agian while these large engagements are happening most of the time the Fleet is up their fighting the enemy fleet aswell.
B.) These large battles happen on planets that said factions wants to control
C.) blowing up every planet an enemy appears on would leave very few planets left in the galaxy
D.) all the pictures you see of the "large 40k ground battles" are on planets that the sides are fighting for control off. planets that they dont want to make into an ash heap.
E.) when the enemy has no fleet the conflict ends pretty gosh darn fast in 40k.

take a look at the Space marine video game. the orks appeared and where engaging the enemy fleet but loosing. the Ork ground forces were using anti aircraft weaponary to keep ships (and the large ships that can enter the atmopshere) at bay. Why didnt the Imperium take a contienent sized Chunk out of the planet? oh that right because the entire planet is a factory and some of the factories on the planet they have no idea how to rebuild them. so send in Men which are a Resource the imperium will throw at what ever they want.

I'd heard blizzard had spent a year or so combing through GW's IP (back before they had the lawyers and guidelines regarding use of the IP) only to declare there was no games to be made there before sneaking off and making Warcraft orc's and humans and starcraft respectively.

edit: next time I should notice there's more than 1 page of posts so this doesn't seem so out of place.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
In a Universe where Carnifexes can survive Cyclonic torpedos a nuclear bomb isn't going to do much.

There is absolutely no possible way you could ever convince me that a carnifex would be able to survive a fracking nuclear strike, when this dumb creature can die to a single frack grenade.

Tyranid 4th edition codex. World scoured clean by Cyclonic Torpedos, not a single living thing should be left. Adeptus Mechanicus explorer teams found a living Carnifex regenerating, and had to kill it with a lance strike from an orbiting ship.

If you're disregarding official fluff, then you've already conceded the argument.

Not to mention, it's not possible to kill a Carnifex with a single grenade (even a melta bomb wouldn't do it), though I'm sure some Black Library book has done it (let me guess, the Commisar Cain books, where none of it should be taken seriously as it's him embellishing his own story?).

Pretty sure its in the Space Wolf fluff somewhere. It may even be Ragnar jamming a krak grenade into a carnifex's mouth and detonating it before swinging off into the next target. To my knowledge Cain has never been described as directly facing off against a Carnifex.

 -Loki- wrote:
Not to mention, it's not possible to kill a Carnifex with a single grenade (even a melta bomb wouldn't do it), though I'm sure some Black Library book has done it (let me guess, the Commisar Cain books, where none of it should be taken seriously as it's him embellishing his own story?).

No, it came from the ultramarine codex. Tyranid war veterans used grenades as improvised weapons against the larger nids (Carnifex and anything bigger.)

 Redcruisair wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Not to mention, it's not possible to kill a Carnifex with a single grenade (even a melta bomb wouldn't do it), though I'm sure some Black Library book has done it (let me guess, the Commisar Cain books, where none of it should be taken seriously as it's him embellishing his own story?).

No, it came from the ultramarine codex. Tyranid war veterans used grenades as improvised weapons against the larger nids (Carnifex and anything bigger.)

And yet they survive Cyclonic torpedoes with just a bit of dirt between them and the crust slagging detonation, go figure.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
A.) Agian while these large engagements are happening most of the time the Fleet is up their fighting the enemy fleet aswell.

And when said fleet won, it could then freely go about destroying the opponent’s ground force at its own leisure.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
B.) These large battles happen on planets that said factions wants to control

Hench why I said you needed an occupation force. Those who control sky have free reign, as long as there is no big guns on the planet that could shoot the fleet down. In such cases you would obviously need boots on the ground.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
C.) blowing up every planet an enemy appears on would leave very few planets left in the galaxy
D.) all the pictures you see of the "large 40k ground battles" are on planets that the sides are fighting for control off. planets that they dont want to make into an ash heap.

You don’t have to blow the planet up. You could instead destroy targets of military worth – Barracks, industry, supply depots, airfields. A blockade would also be an effective way of getting the planet to surrender. Destroying crops, livestock and vaporise the rivers and seas would effectively result in the planet’s population starving from lack of food and water. All this done without a single lasgun shot fired.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
E.) when the enemy has no fleet the conflict ends pretty gosh darn fast in 40k.

Not always. Two times Fenris has been invaded by an opposing force with a vastly superior fleet. In both of those wars the wolves had no ships of their own and the fighting lasted years before the conflict finally ended.



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 Kain wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Not to mention, it's not possible to kill a Carnifex with a single grenade (even a melta bomb wouldn't do it), though I'm sure some Black Library book has done it (let me guess, the Commisar Cain books, where none of it should be taken seriously as it's him embellishing his own story?).

No, it came from the ultramarine codex. Tyranid war veterans used grenades as improvised weapons against the larger nids (Carnifex and anything bigger.)

And yet they survive Cyclonic torpedoes with just a bit of dirt between them and the crust slagging detonation, go figure.

Ay, this is why I refuted the notion of a Carnifex surviving a direct hit form a nuke. If a grenade can kill the beast, then a bomb with the power of 500,000 tons of TNT should be able to do it as well.

GW = derp

I've seen this argument once, and someone did the numbers based of fluff to see who wins.

Turns out the entire SC universe, if they all join forces and form an unquestionable alliance, would be stomped.
As in, a complete one-sided victory being obliterated an any battlefield with ease.
By the tau.
Alone.

So any of the bigger factions will have an even easier time.

Point is, as much as some of the things in SC are badass, the things in 40K are outright insane, brake the rules of physics in half, and overkill is the norm.
SC universe is just heavily outnumbered, outgunned, outteched, out everything. they are not even on the same scale.
Even mere lasguns are stronger then the terran rifles, and they are considered among the worst guns in 40K.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
A.) Agian while these large engagements are happening most of the time the Fleet is up their fighting the enemy fleet aswell.

And when said fleet won, it could then freely go about destroying the opponent’s ground force at its own leisure.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
B.) These large battles happen on planets that said factions wants to control

Hench why I said you needed an occupation force. Those who control sky have free reign, as long as there is no big guns on the planet that could shoot the fleet down. In such cases you would obviously need boots on the ground.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
C.) blowing up every planet an enemy appears on would leave very few planets left in the galaxy
D.) all the pictures you see of the "large 40k ground battles" are on planets that the sides are fighting for control off. planets that they dont want to make into an ash heap.

You don’t have to blow the planet up. You could instead destroy targets of military worth – Barracks, industry, supply depots, airfields. A blockade would also be an effective way of getting the planet to surrender. Destroying crops, livestock and vaporise the rivers and seas would effectively result in the planet’s population starving from lack of food and water. All this done without a single lasgun shot fired.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
E.) when the enemy has no fleet the conflict ends pretty gosh darn fast in 40k.

Not always. Two times Fenris has been invaded by an opposing force with a vastly superior fleet. In both of those wars the wolves had no ships of their own and the fighting lasted years before the conflict finally ended.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Not to mention, it's not possible to kill a Carnifex with a single grenade (even a melta bomb wouldn't do it), though I'm sure some Black Library book has done it (let me guess, the Commisar Cain books, where none of it should be taken seriously as it's him embellishing his own story?).

No, it came from the ultramarine codex. Tyranid war veterans used grenades as improvised weapons against the larger nids (Carnifex and anything bigger.)

And yet they survive Cyclonic torpedoes with just a bit of dirt between them and the crust slagging detonation, go figure.

Ay, this is why I refuted the notion of a Carnifex surviving a direct hit form a nuke. If a grenade can kill the beast, then a bomb with the power of 500,000 tons of TNT should be able to do it as well.

GW = derp

The beauty about the fluff is that you can take any figures you want as canon. So if someone just goes with all high end all the time, SC gets obliterated.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Ay, this is why I refuted the notion of a Carnifex surviving a direct hit form a nuke. If a grenade can kill the beast, then a bomb with the power of 500,000 tons of TNT should be able to do it as well.

GW = derp

So what about the people who survived ground Zero at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? seeing as those are the only 2 nuclear weapons ever used on living targets and the data recovered from said uses goes like this
Of the people who died 60% from the blast, 30% from Debris, 10% from unknown. Just because its a nuke doesnt mean it will automatically kill everything.

You don’t have to blow the planet up. You could instead destroy targets of military worth – Barracks, industry, supply depots, airfields.

And Agian when you live in a time where you don;t know how everything works. blowing up industry is a very bad idea. you need to read more in 40k to understand that alot of their tech they dont know how it works or how to make more of said item. And I want you to name one race in 40k that would surrender. and no the Tau won't surrender because they would just be killed. And

A blockade would also be an effective way of getting the planet to surrender. Destroying crops, livestock and vaporise the rivers and seas would effectively result in the planet’s population starving from lack of food and water. All this done without a single lasgun shot fired.

who in 40k would surrender? you apparently think that humans are only fighting other humans in this universe. and that once said humans surrender they will be treated fine and not butchered. oh wait this is 40k planet A helped Xenos and decides to leave the imperium. Imperium doesn't like this and sends a fleet to blockade the planet. They planet surrenders a few weeks later. the imperium kills everyone on the planet and brings in new colonists. So what was the point of surrendering agian? your going to die anyways.

 Kain wrote:

The beauty about the fluff is that you can take any figures you want as canon. So if someone just goes with all high end all the time, SC gets obliterated.

Them fluff Radicals, they so cray.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ninjacommando wrote:
So what about the people who survived ground Zero at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? seeing as those are the only 2 nuclear weapons ever used on living targets and the data recovered from said uses goes like this
Of the people who died 60% from the blast, 30% from Debris, 10% from unknown. Just because its a nuke doesnt mean it will automatically kill everything.

The Japanese, who stood at the epicentre of the explosion, got instantly vaporized. The same thing would also happen to a Carnifex.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
And Agian when you live in a time where you don;t know how everything works. blowing up industry is a very bad idea. you need to read more in 40k to understand that alot of their tech they dont know how it works or how to make more of said item.

So what you’re saying is that because there are some important forgeworlds out there we can’t bomb the other planets? Maybe you should do some reading, as you clearly think that such rare worlds make up 99,9% of the planets in the galaxy. 40k consists of millions of different kinds of planets and on many of them would orbital bombardment be an acceptable tool of conquest.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
who in 40k would surrender? you apparently think that humans are only fighting other humans in this universe. and that once said humans surrender they will be treated fine and not butchered. oh wait this is 40k planet A helped Xenos and decides to leave the imperium. Imperium doesn't like this and sends a fleet to blockade the planet. They planet surrenders a few weeks later. the imperium kills everyone on the planet and brings in new colonists. So what was the point of surrendering agian? your going to die anyways.

Human or Xeno, it doesn’t matter. They will have to give up, or die a slow and agonising death from famine and starvation.

Why would a lasgun be more powerful then an impaler rifle of a marine in sc universe? the impaler rifle is is desined to kill light to medium armor in sc universe with relative ease. it friggin shoots 6-8 mm spikes at extremly high velocity at 3 seperate settings single shots for sniping, semi- auto to conserve bullets and full auto when you need that succer dead fast. Its also can be held 2-handded by a non power armored terran or 1-handed by a marine in armor. and its their standard issue military weapon. I'm just sayin obviusly if you take 40k as is and duke them out against sc as is 40k wins, but if you give any faction in sc any reasonable amount of time to build up forces in 40k universe they will have more than a fighting chance.

See the "How strong is a lasgun" thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/539592.page#5849436

We worked out a minimum of 4.4 gigawatts for a single shot(based on minimum energy to destroy 1/4 of the human body)

Necron Gauss weapons have an energy limit of "Don't be silly, you can't even understand the principles of how this works."

 Kain wrote:
Necron Gauss weapons have an energy limit of "Don't be silly, you can't even understand the principles of how this works."

From the 3rd ed. Necrodex: "If a mechanical trigger is used to deliver the pulse, the moment the firing mechanisms come into contact, microscopic irregularities in the material will dissipate o much energy as to b completely vapourised."

So, the gun is so powerful if you use a trigger or have any imperfection whatsoever, the gun evaporates.

EDIT: Oh yes, also I would take the 'nid codex over the space marines one on the carnifex issue, seeing as also in te space marines codex there is Calgar taking the Avatar's sword at stabbing it with it, and if I remember correctly a marine cutting a wraithlord in half.

 Grey Templar wrote:
See the "How strong is a lasgun" thread. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/539592.page#5849436

We worked out a minimum of 4.4 gigawatts for a single shot(based on minimum energy to destroy 1/4 of the human body)

Just because something needs that much energy to destroy 1/4 of the human body does not make it a stronger weapon it makes it a very innefecient weapon that should probally be replaced and the imperium would save a lot of money, to build more killy things. 1 shot from an impaler rifle can pretty much burst a human head as if it was a rotten tommato. Power consumption does not always equate to how powerful a weapon is. 40k is all about huge over kill infefecient weapons. Sc universe is filled with a bunch of money grubbin rather save money and have something get killed just as good peeps. except arcturas mengst but at least in sc 2 he actually has generals that know what they are doing instead of of that ass edmund duke.

What?

A catagory 5 hurricane can launch a piece of straw thru a tree trunk and thats wind speeds of roughly 157mph, the c-14 impaler gauss rifle fires at super sonic (actually i reread the fluff it says hyper sonic not super sonic with hyer sonic being 5 time faster than super sonic) speeds. which means greater than the spead of sound . Since the speed of sound is roughly 750 mph in a dry atmoshere the basic infantry rifle of sc marines should actually shred just about anything. I think the desine team under estimated what an 8 milimeter steel spike can do at that speed since this is how they desribe the weapons basic ability. The C-14 Impaler gauss rifle is a terran standard issue marine weapon of the Confederate and Dominion Marine Corps. It is very common in the Koprulu Sector.[1]
n use by 2478,[2] the C-14 fires hypersonic 8 mm armor-piercing metal "spikes"[3][1] which can penetrate up to two inches of steel plating.[4]
The Impaler is fully automatic with a fire rate of 30 rounds per second,[5] although fully automatic fire is discouraged under most circumstances. A capacitor system is used to fire the weapon in short bursts, conserving ammunition and minimizing power requirements.[1] Due to this, the C-14 rifle has high recoil; CMC armor is designed to suppress this.[2] The armor can also supplement the rifle's power supply.[5]

The C-14 has been used as automatic base defense weapon, mounted on a tower.[6]

The C-14 should not be confused with the AGR-14 rifle. Both are referred to as "assault rifles"[5] but the latter may be a scaled down version of the former.[7]
actually it says hypersonic not supersonic so that means it's 5 times the speed of sound, hy·per·son·ic

/ˌhīpərˈsänik/





Adjective




1.Relating to speeds of more than five times the speed of sound (Mach 5).
2.Relating to sound frequencies above about a thousand million hertz.








Synonyms




supersonic - ultrasonic

yah that should not be an infantry weapon.

 starraptor wrote:
A catagory 5 hurricane can launch a piece of straw thru a tree trunk and thats wind speeds of roughly 157mph

This is just a myth.

the c-14 impaler gauss rifle fires at super sonic speeds. which means greater than the spead of sound.

Just like every single real-world rifle you mean? Shooting a bullet at supersonic speeds doesn't really mean very much.

I'm sorry to tell you most "every single real gun today" do not have a muzzle velocity of over 3750mph

 starraptor wrote:
I'm sorry to tell you most "every single real gun today" do not have a muzzle velocity of over 3750mph

No, they don't. But that's not what you said, you said supersonic, as in 750+.

Sorry about that i forgot to edit it a little after i had reread the fluff on the weapon it actually states it at hyper sonic speeds which is mach 5 or 5 times the speed of sound. I re-edited the post.

I'm pretty sure the 4.4 gigawatts was the output rather than the input.

Anyway, the marine rifle does 6 damage to a marine's 45 hp. This means it takes 8(6*8=48) hits to kill a marine. If we assume terran armour is the same as imperium power armour and that the rifle does not penetrate armour, then this means that 3 shots need to statistically wound. Thus, the to-wound chance is 3/8 statistically, or 0.375, this is closer to the 0,33 of str3 than the 0.5 of str 4 therefore I would call it str 3.

Does anyone else find Starraptor's posts *incredibly* hard to read?

 PhrycePhyre wrote:
I'm pretty sure the 4.4 gigawatts was the output rather than the input.

Anyway, the marine rifle does 6 damage to a marine's 45 hp. This means it takes 8(6*8=48) hits to kill a marine. If we assume terran armour is the same as imperium power armour and that the rifle does not penetrate armour, then this means that 3 shots need to statistically wound. Thus, the to-wound chance is 3/8 statistically, or 0.375, this is closer to the 0,33 of str3 than the 0.5 of str 4 therefore I would call it str 3.

You are comparing one gaming mechanism used for a real time strategy game to another for a turn based tactical game. This is not a valid comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another way of looking at it would be to say that a marine firing their rifle will always kill another marine in 6.45 seconds. This is definately at the lower end of the assumed time scale of a 40k turn and therefore all Terran marines are BS5 with plasma weapon grade kit

 Flinty wrote:
You are comparing one gaming mechanism used for a real time strategy game to another for a turn based tactical game. This is not a valid comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another way of looking at it would be to say that a marine firing their rifle will always kill another marine in 6.45 seconds. This is definately at the lower end of the assumed time scale of a 40k turn and therefore all Terran marines are BS5 with plasma weapon grade kit

It's the only way we can really compare it, unless someone made a working bolter and marine rifle? Also, point out where I am invalid please.

 PhrycePhyre wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
You are comparing one gaming mechanism used for a real time strategy game to another for a turn based tactical game. This is not a valid comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another way of looking at it would be to say that a marine firing their rifle will always kill another marine in 6.45 seconds. This is definately at the lower end of the assumed time scale of a 40k turn and therefore all Terran marines are BS5 with plasma weapon grade kit

It's the only way we can really compare it, unless someone made a working bolter and marine rifle? Also, point out where I am invalid please.

The representation in Starcraft is to have the unit fire at a certain speed. My understanding is that the weapons fire always hits and causes the damage specified to the weapon. Therefore you end up with a damage per second type approach which is fine for a real time strategy game.

40k is turn based and therefore the time taken per turn is not defined. There was a discussion on this on Dakka a while back and there were estimates of a few seconds to a few minutes given as to how long a turn is, but this definiiton is not fixed and could theoretically vary even betwen turns. The abstraction in the 40k rules for firing weapons is designed to indicate how effective a particular troop type is at damaging/killing the enemy over the undetermined time of the turn, not the precise power and accuracy of an individual shot from a weapon.

They are 2 different methods of abstraction to fit the effects of weapons fire into 2 different kinds of game and are therefore impossible to compare. With the information provided my interpretation of BS5 plasma toting Terran marines is just as valid as yours, but I'm not saying that mine is right.

Rather than looking at the game effects, which are subject to abstraction to fit the framework of the individual games, I think we have to go by the background fluff for each of the weapons. The Starcraft Wikia page indicates the fire rate and penetrating power of the C14 rifle. This can be compared to similar stats for 40k weapons and the relative merits discussed.

You actually can test a marines rifle out in real life because it gives you real world stats. It says in the marine rifles stats that the ammo is a 8 mm long steel spike for their normal ammo, it also says it is fired at hypersonic speed. Hypersonic meaning 5 times spead of sound which ends up being roughly 3750 mph. Now we just need the myth busters to figure out what kind of damage this will do. Me personly I like to think just because of the speeds this spike is travaling at if you shot at some ones head it would be a bloody mist and the tank behind the person will have a whole in it and posibly the concrete wall behind the tank. I also think the Sc stats under estimate what kind of damage it can do by what they tell you the muzzle velcity and type of ammo it uses.

But I am not comparing the time, I am comparing the number of shots. Taking 8 hits to kill is more than the ~6 hits less than a bolter. However, it is less than the ~9.2 required from a lasgun. As the rate of fire is going to be roughly similar, as both app.ear in cinematics/fluff to be semi-automatic, the marine rifle is less powerful than the bolter measured in time it takes to kill a marine, assuming that terran and imperial power armour is the same