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Well luckily for the dominion there marines are actually their basic throw away troops so to speak. The marines to the dominion are what the imperial guard are to the imperium. And in numbers in fluff the marines in sc heavily out number marines in 40k. So i think Sc marine win in a fight against 40k marines.

 PhrycePhyre wrote:
But I am not comparing the time, I am comparing the number of shots. Taking 8 hits to kill is more than the ~6 hits less than a bolter. However, it is less than the ~9.2 required from a lasgun. As the rate of fire is going to be roughly similar, as both app.ear in cinematics/fluff to be semi-automatic, the marine rifle is less powerful than the bolter measured in time it takes to kill a marine, assuming that terran and imperial power armour is the same

But you can't compare the number of shots becuase the roll of one dice to hit in 40k does not equal the firing of a single round from a particular weapon during a turn. The to-hit, to-wound and armour save rolls in 40k are abstractions to see if one unit has damaged their target over an unspecified time.

“The C-14 fires hypersonic 8 mm armor-piercing metal ‘spikes’ which can penetrate up to two inches of steel plating."

So basic marine rifles got rending?

 starraptor wrote:
Well luckily for the dominion there marines are actually their basic throw away troops so to speak. The marines to the dominion are what the imperial guard are to the imperium. And in numbers in fluff the marines in sc heavily out number marines in 40k. So i think Sc marine win in a fight against 40k marines.

Yes, but do they outnumber the IG? Hell no.

The Imperium has billions of guardsmen to throw at a conflict. Starcraft would get out-attritioned pretty quickly. Assuming the Navy doesn't just nuke the problem from orbit.

I don't think some people on here understand the basic principle of Tactics, (Besides what they think are tactics from RTS games.) It's just come down to a pissing contest now....
you just can't beat 40k because the story doesn't progress.

 Redcruisair wrote:

“The C-14 fires hypersonic 8 mm armor-piercing metal ‘spikes’ which can penetrate up to two inches of steel plating."

So basic marine rifles got rending?

Two inches of steel plating?

That's...not terribly impressive.

 Kain wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

“The C-14 fires hypersonic 8 mm armor-piercing metal ‘spikes’ which can penetrate up to two inches of steel plating."

So basic marine rifles got rending?

Two inches of steel plating?

That's...not terribly impressive.

Maybe something simmilar to what the Eldar got then? Ignores armor saves on 6s.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 starraptor wrote:
Well luckily for the dominion there marines are actually their basic throw away troops so to speak. The marines to the dominion are what the imperial guard are to the imperium. And in numbers in fluff the marines in sc heavily out number marines in 40k. So i think Sc marine win in a fight against 40k marines.

Yes, but do they outnumber the IG? Hell no.

The Imperium has billions of guardsmen to throw at a conflict. Starcraft would get out-attritioned pretty quickly. Assuming the Navy doesn't just nuke the problem from orbit.

Nuking the problem is exactly what SC would do.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

“The C-14 fires hypersonic 8 mm armor-piercing metal ‘spikes’ which can penetrate up to two inches of steel plating."

So basic marine rifles got rending?

Two inches of steel plating?

That's...not terribly impressive.

Maybe something simmilar to what the Eldar got then? Ignores armor saves on 6s.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 starraptor wrote:
Well luckily for the dominion there marines are actually their basic throw away troops so to speak. The marines to the dominion are what the imperial guard are to the imperium. And in numbers in fluff the marines in sc heavily out number marines in 40k. So i think Sc marine win in a fight against 40k marines.

Yes, but do they outnumber the IG? Hell no.

The Imperium has billions of guardsmen to throw at a conflict. Starcraft would get out-attritioned pretty quickly. Assuming the Navy doesn't just nuke the problem from orbit.

Nuking the problem is exactly what SC would do.

I'd just file the C-14 as being an AP 5 lasgun since bolters can go through 8 or so inches of steel (so a space marine could kill any tank in the second world war with just his assault rifle and laugh off everything they had).

 Kain wrote:
I'd just file the C-14 as being an AP 5 lasgun since bolters can go through 8 or so inches of steel.

Ay, that seems accurate enough. Terran marines use weight of fire to bring down their pray, so their guns would likely be AP 5 strength 4.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I'd just file the C-14 as being an AP 5 lasgun since bolters can go through 8 or so inches of steel.

Ay, that seems accurate enough. Terran marines use weight of fire to bring down their pray, so their guns would likely be AP 5 strength 4.

No S3, a Bolter can go clean through a Tiger tank and turn the crew inside into mush while the Space marine would shrug off the 88mm gun. A terran marine could fire at a Tiger tank all day and would never penetrate the frontal armor. And I'm fairly sure that after getting hit by an 88mm anti-tank round you'd need to pick the Terran marine out of his suit with a spoon.

 Kain wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I'd just file the C-14 as being an AP 5 lasgun since bolters can go through 8 or so inches of steel.

Ay, that seems accurate enough. Terran marines use weight of fire to bring down their pray, so their guns would likely be AP 5 strength 4.

No S3, a Bolter can go clean through a Tiger tank and turn the crew inside into mush while the Space marine would shrug off the 88mm gun. A terran marine could fire at a Tiger tank all day and would never penetrate the frontal armor. And I'm fairly sure that after getting hit by an 88mm anti-tank round you'd need to pick the Terran marine out of his suit with a spoon.

No its strength 4. Terran marries got explody ammunition too, so strength 4.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I'd just file the C-14 as being an AP 5 lasgun since bolters can go through 8 or so inches of steel.

Ay, that seems accurate enough. Terran marines use weight of fire to bring down their pray, so their guns would likely be AP 5 strength 4.

No S3, a Bolter can go clean through a Tiger tank and turn the crew inside into mush while the Space marine would shrug off the 88mm gun. A terran marine could fire at a Tiger tank all day and would never penetrate the frontal armor. And I'm fairly sure that after getting hit by an 88mm anti-tank round you'd need to pick the Terran marine out of his suit with a spoon.

No its strength 4. Terran marries got explody ammunition too, so strength 4.

Please tell me switching out armor piercing rounds for less penetrative high explosive rounds will help the C-14 kill the Tiger Tank better when a basic explosive bolter round can go one end of a tiger tank and out the other without needing special penetrative ammunition.

 Kain wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I'd just file the C-14 as being an AP 5 lasgun since bolters can go through 8 or so inches of steel.

Ay, that seems accurate enough. Terran marines use weight of fire to bring down their pray, so their guns would likely be AP 5 strength 4.

No S3, a Bolter can go clean through a Tiger tank and turn the crew inside into mush while the Space marine would shrug off the 88mm gun. A terran marine could fire at a Tiger tank all day and would never penetrate the frontal armor. And I'm fairly sure that after getting hit by an 88mm anti-tank round you'd need to pick the Terran marine out of his suit with a spoon.

No.

A bolter would NOT be able to hurt a Tiger tank. Certainly not at range. Maybe at close range shooting at vulnerable areas. But at that point it would be much easier to just run up and plant a krak grenade, or rip the hatch off and toss in a frag.

PA might be able to resist the 88 shell, but it could certainly break bones and would send the marine flying. On a direct hit anyway. A HE shell that hit anywhere but directly on his armor would accomplish nothing. Thats marginal though, I think the 88 could just as easily crack the armor.

Hmm I might have misread about the ammunition types. I got the exploding bullets mixed up with the fragmentation grenades. My bad .

So guess it will go like this.

C-14 rifle: strength 3, AP5.
and
Fragmentation grenade: strength 6, AP4, small blast.

A frag grenade being stronger than a frag missile?

Gimme a break.

 Grey Templar wrote:
A frag grenade being stronger than a frag missile?

Gimme a break.

Yeah I know it sounds crazy, but the F grenade is described as an anti-personal weapon, yet is powerful enough to blast armoured vehicles apart and pound solid rock to powder. Thought I guess we could remove the blast part to make it more game balanced.

Hmm another viable option would be to reduce its strength to 4, AP to 5 and then give it armour bane.

So a simple conventional explosive device is almost as strong as the small thermo-nuclear device known as a meltabomb?

 Grey Templar wrote:
So a simple conventional explosive device is almost as strong as the small thermo-nuclear device known as a meltabomb?

Nah, it ain’t that strong. You should remember that the rules for the M bomb don’t display its power properly. Just like C-14 rifles should be somewhere in the middle between 3 and 4.
But alas, no such thing as 3,5 strength exist, so we have to make due with 3. Take it all with a grain of salt.

Also Melta bombs are strength 8 IIRC.

Well technicly the very fluff of the c-14 rifle is weird. It describes its penatrating power only being able to go thru 2 inchs of steel in the same sentence as it fireing at hypersonic speeds. To anolog with a current day real life weapon the only one we have at that speed is the railgun you know the weapon so massive its only platform is a battle cruiser. Also if it were to fire its depleted uranium rounds at that speed it would be the equivelent force of a hiroshima size bomb for every shot. Yah I think they need to readjust their shooting speeds alittle.

 starraptor wrote:
Well technicly the very fluff of the c-14 rifle is weird. It describes its penatrating power only being able to go thru 2 inchs of steel in the same sentence as it fireing at hypersonic speeds. To anolog with a current day real life weapon the only one we have at that speed is the railgun you know the weapon so massive its only platform is a battle cruiser. Also if it were to fire its depleted uranium rounds at that speed it would be the equivelent force of a hiroshima size bomb for every shot. Yah I think they need to readjust their shooting speeds alittle.

Yeah its penetration power should actually be higher than that. I got the “2 inches of steel” quote from the old original SC game manual, and I honestly think it’s safe to say, that the C-14 rifle has gone through some notable changes since then.

I'm not gonna bring up the bolter vs. marine rifle again, but would we be able to get a comparison between terran and imperial power armours going? I'm not sure about the terran, but it probably isn't as powerful as the imperial stuff, given that a combat shield brings up it's effectiveness by 1/5.

Well technicly the very fluff of the c-14 rifle is weird. It describes its penatrating power only being able to go thru 2 inchs of steel in the same sentence as it fireing at hypersonic speeds. To anolog with a current day real life weapon the only one we have at that speed is the railgun you know the weapon so massive its only platform is a battle cruiser. Also if it were to fire its depleted uranium rounds at that speed it would be the equivelent force of a hiroshima size bomb for every shot. Yah I think they need to readjust their shooting speeds alittle.

Especially given the rifle would have to deal with plasma or very near it exiting the barrel 10 or so times a second(random estimate based on the fire rate in the game/cinematics)

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I'd just file the C-14 as being an AP 5 lasgun since bolters can go through 8 or so inches of steel.

Ay, that seems accurate enough. Terran marines use weight of fire to bring down their pray, so their guns would likely be AP 5 strength 4.

No S3, a Bolter can go clean through a Tiger tank and turn the crew inside into mush while the Space marine would shrug off the 88mm gun. A terran marine could fire at a Tiger tank all day and would never penetrate the frontal armor. And I'm fairly sure that after getting hit by an 88mm anti-tank round you'd need to pick the Terran marine out of his suit with a spoon.

No.

A bolter would NOT be able to hurt a Tiger tank. Certainly not at range. Maybe at close range shooting at vulnerable areas. But at that point it would be much easier to just run up and plant a krak grenade, or rip the hatch off and toss in a frag.

PA might be able to resist the 88 shell, but it could certainly break bones and would send the marine flying. On a direct hit anyway. A HE shell that hit anywhere but directly on his armor would accomplish nothing. Thats marginal though, I think the 88 could just as easily crack the armor.

With 8 inches of steel equivalent penetration, a German Tiger tank would go down in a a few shots. Given that PA can withstand multiple shots from a bolter which has superior penetration than an 88mm, then the 88mm would do little to the space marine.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Yeah its penetration power should actually be higher than that. I got the “2 inches of steel” quote from the old original SC game manual, and I honestly think it’s safe to say, that the C-14 rifle has gone through some notable changes since then.

So we have two possible solutions:

1) The velocity number is the correct fluff, and the gun should use the high-end firepower value.

2) The armor penetration number is the correct fluff, and the gun should use the low-end firepower value.

So far I don't really see a compelling argument for picking #1 over #2 besides a desire to have the biggest firepower number possible, while taking the lower value has the advantage of making a lot more sense for an infantry rifle.

 Kain wrote:
With 8 inches of steel equivalent penetration, a German Tiger tank would go down in a a few shots. Given that PA can withstand multiple shots from a bolter which has superior penetration than an 88mm, then the 88mm would do little to the space marine.

Armor penetration isn't everything. A weapon can penetrate armor very well but fail to do very much once it does (for example, a very focused laser weapon that penetrates a section of armor that isn't covering anything important), and a weapon can fail to penetrate armor but still kill everything inside (for example, the marine's armor might stop the 88 from penetrating, but the blunt force impact will still kill the marine inside).

A full clip from a bolter should probably turn the Nazi center of a tiger tank into mush if not gut the engines or detonate the ammunition. And the 88mm, I'd agree with you and say it seems to be in the same situation as a 40k autocannon salvo on a space marine, the shells can't pierce the armor, but they hit hard enough to usually injure if not kill the marine outright.

As for the C-14 Peregrine, I think there may be an answer. At a high enough velocity, rounds don't penetrate any more so much as they outright explode. Which is why against those ridiculously fast little projectiles in space, the best shield is simply jut a thin expendable layer of matter that the hypervelocity projectile explodes against while doing little damage to anything of value.

So the C-14's velocity is simply so high that it actually hampers it's penetration power, but has a bit of a boost against soft targets at the cost of being largely useless against anything with armor worth a damn.

C14 fires 30 rounds per second allegedly.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/C-14_rifle

 Flinty wrote:
C14 fires 30 rounds per second allegedly.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/C-14_rifle

Given the bouncing and bucking recoil seen in the cutscenes, the likelihood of the C14 hitting the same spot multiple times to deepen penetration is negligible.

A bolter can penetrate 8" of steel, yet won't kill a guardsman with a hit 33% of the time?

Nah, that sounds too ridiculous to be true.

 Dakkamite wrote:
A bolter can penetrate 8" of steel, yet won't kill a guardsman with a hit 33% of the time?

Nah, that sounds too ridiculous to be true.

The 40k game and the 40k fluff are such abstractions of one another that trying to argue one because of something that happens in the other is like wondering how so many people can fit in a barracks in an RTS game.

Also on the fire rate of the marine rifle, you can hear the individual shots being fired in game and in the cinematics. This is compared to the bolter where the fire rate is always(in my experience) described as a roar. Thus if a marine rifle is 30 r/s then the bolter will fire more.

we were not actually debating the rounds of fire per sec but at what velocity the rounds leave the barrell at. So if you were to compare a bb gun that can shoot at 20 rps and an actual hand gun that fires lets say 9 rps i'm putting my bet on the hand gun over the bb gun on winning a shoot out. I think the only comparrison that the c-14 impaler gauss rifle can be made to in 40k power wise is probally the new broadside railguns. Because at the speads we are talking about shot at once the depleted uranium rounds hit anything the molecueles will be split causing a nuclear explosion.