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starraptor wrote: I think the only comparrison that the c-14 impaler gauss rifle can be made to in 40k power wise is probally the new broadside railguns.
Which is silly because the recoil of firing a weapon like that (especially at the claimed 30 shots per second) would knock you off your feet.
Because at the speads we are talking about shot at once the depleted uranium rounds hit anything the molecueles will be split causing a nuclear explosion.
No.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
starraptor wrote: I think the only comparrison that the c-14 impaler gauss rifle can be made to in 40k power wise is probally the new broadside railguns. Because at the speads we are talking about shot at once the depleted uranium rounds hit anything the molecueles will be split causing a nuclear explosion.
And this is why it is silly, because are you suggesting armour that can be afforded on at least the scale of a space marine chapter can take 6 broadside hits before it goes down? And that one hundred of these can be taken down by something with purely biological weaponry? This I cannot see working, because in the videos of the railgun firings, the fire at the barrel end is the gases heated to levels of almost plasma by friction, this would be exiting the barrel up to 30 times a second, if we continue to use all the fluff. I'm not sure anything we could comprehend would take that load for the frugality required.
Also, it wouldn't cause a nuclear explosion, hit is very hard yes, not cause a nuclear explosion.
"My strength is as the strength of ten because my heart is pure"
"Really, well, there's twelve of them"
PhrycePhyre wrote: Also on the fire rate of the marine rifle, you can hear the individual shots being fired in game and in the cinematics.
You can hear the individual shots because the C-14 rifle is under most circumstances always fired in short burst.
PhrycePhyre wrote: This is compared to the bolter where the fire rate is always(in my experience) described as a roar. Thus if a marine rifle is 30 r/s then the bolter will fire more.
I see it differently. You can’t hear the shots of the bolter over all the sound it makes. The fact that the rounds also detonate on impact doesn’t help diminishing the noise either.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
PhrycePhyre wrote: Also on the fire rate of the marine rifle, you can hear the individual shots being fired in game and in the cinematics.
You can hear the individual shots because the C-14 rifle is under most circumstances always fired in short burst.
PhrycePhyre wrote: This is compared to the bolter where the fire rate is always(in my experience) described as a roar. Thus if a marine rifle is 30 r/s then the bolter will fire more.
I see it differently. You can’t hear the shots of the bolter over all the sound it makes. The fact that the rounds also detonate on impact doesn’t help diminishing the noise either.
Nope, don't hear the individual shots even when Ermey is firing them in bursts.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
PhrycePhyre wrote: Also on the fire rate of the marine rifle, you can hear the individual shots being fired in game and in the cinematics.
You can hear the individual shots because the C-14 rifle is under most circumstances always fired in short burst.
PhrycePhyre wrote: This is compared to the bolter where the fire rate is always(in my experience) described as a roar. Thus if a marine rifle is 30 r/s then the bolter will fire more.
I see it differently. You can’t hear the shots of the bolter over all the sound it makes. The fact that the rounds also detonate on impact doesn’t help diminishing the noise either.
Nope, don't hear the individual shots even when Ermey is firing them in bursts.
Regardless, if you think the bolter can fire over 30 rounds per second, then you need to find a quote in 40k specifically stating the bolter being able to do so
Are bolters even fully automatic? I have never read about a bolter firing anything but short burst or a single round at a time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh look what i found
dunk dunk dunk. not hard to hear the rounds here.
Heavy bolters should fire faster than a bolter right? I can still hear the rounds being puked out of it.
Even in movies, shall bolter rounds be heard by everyone.
I think i have made my point clear.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/18 09:51:13
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
The practical limit of a gyrojet's rate of fire is six rounds a second per barrel.
But given that a single bolter round is so destructive it doesn't need a spectacular rate of fire, and given that bolts are giant honking pieces of ammunition you'd want to conserve them anyway.
Additionally, an MG42 shoots at 1200 rounds per minute, a 30mm autocannon only fires at about 250 rounds per minute.
Which is the more destructive gun?
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Except, these are 3rd party games, thus whether or not they are taken as canon is debatable.
Also, not being able to hear the shots over the sound of the weapon? That makes no sense whatsoever. If you can't hear the individual shots, it means that it is firing so fast it is translated by the mind as a single noise, thus creating the 'ripping canvas' sound of the MG42. I don't know about you, but I'm taking the codices and similar over DOW.
"My strength is as the strength of ten because my heart is pure"
"Really, well, there's twelve of them"
Kain wrote: The practical limit of a gyrojet's rate of fire is six rounds a second per barrel.
But given that a single bolter round is so destructive it doesn't need a spectacular rate of fire, and given that bolts are giant honking pieces of ammunition you'd want to conserve them anyway.
Additionally, an MG42 shoots at 1200 rounds per minute, a 30mm autocannon only fires at about 250 rounds per minute.
Which is the more destructive gun?
The bolter is of course the more powerful weapon of the two. I already explained earlier how the C-14 is a weapon used to drown enemies in bullets, not pulp them to red mush. .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PhrycePhyre wrote: Except, these are 3rd party games, thus whether or not they are taken as canon is debatable.
Also, not being able to hear the shots over the sound of the weapon? That makes no sense whatsoever. If you can't hear the individual shots, it means that it is firing so fast it is translated by the mind as a single noise, thus creating the 'ripping canvas' sound of the MG42. I don't know about you, but I'm taking the codices and similar over DOW.
I don't think the writers at GW know anything at all about guns, or how they sound when fired. They properly thought to themself "how do we make this gun sound cool? Ooh I know! Let’s make it sound like it was spewing out thunder. These are after all weapons used by demi-gods." Again I’m waiting for written confirmation of the bolter firing as fast as you claim, guesswork won't be enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 10:08:25
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
Redcruisair wrote: I don't think the writers at GW know anything at all about guns, or how they sound when fired. They properly thought to themself "how do we make this gun sound cool? Ooh I know! Let’s make it sound like it was spewing out thunder. These are after all weapons used by demi-gods." Again I’m waiting for written confirmation of the bolter firing as fast as you claim, guesswork won't be enough.
Except this argument works against blizzard as well, because we are talking about, if we go by everything, 30 hypersonic projectiles per second that penetrate 2 inches of steel plating.
Another thing, if you took a rocket launcher firing sound and extended the first portion(as if it was semi- to fully automatic), then it could feasibly be called a roar. I can't put forward actual canonical firespeeds because I have none, I cannot find any of the gun's specifications anywhere, maybe I didn't read the rulebook hard enough, I don't know. I just run off the descriptions of the effects and the in-game values.
"My strength is as the strength of ten because my heart is pure"
"Really, well, there's twelve of them"
There's no point using anything in-game as it's all changed for game balance. Unless you seriously believe a heavy bolter can only fire 3 shots a turn...
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Redcruisair wrote: I don't think the writers at GW know anything at all about guns, or how they sound when fired. They properly thought to themself "how do we make this gun sound cool? Ooh I know! Let’s make it sound like it was spewing out thunder. These are after all weapons used by demi-gods." Again I’m waiting for written confirmation of the bolter firing as fast as you claim, guesswork won't be enough.
Except this argument works against blizzard as well, because we are talking about, if we go by everything, 30 hypersonic projectiles per second that penetrate 2 inches of steel plating.
Another thing, if you took a rocket launcher firing sound and extended the first portion(as if it was semi- to fully automatic), then it could feasibly be called a roar. I can't put forward actual canonical firespeeds because I have none, I cannot find any of the gun's specifications anywhere, maybe I didn't read the rulebook hard enough, I don't know. I just run off the descriptions of the effects and the in-game values.
I think i did say that the people who made the sc fluff for the weopons didnt know what they are talking about because either the weapon has the penetration power to go thru 2 inches of steel (which by the way the gattling gun from the american civil war can do that also) or it fires the bullet at hypersonic speeds and from the only things i could find to compare it to in real life is the rail gun or as its also called death by speed. If it fire projectiles ate the same speed as a rail gun it would have to have an extermely powerful electromagnet as a propulsion device, which if you think about it its over 500 years in the future its possible. The thing is though as i read up on rail guns though is at the speeds of the ammo gets shot at the molecules in it start to become extremely unstable and start to rip them selves apart so by the time they hit the target they explode. So if the most common replacement ammo the marines use is depleted uranium that would not pierce a target it would cause small nuclear explosin. Also the ammo they use are solid spikes and real life railguns use solid projectiles also.
starraptor wrote: I think i did say that the people who made the sc fluff for the weopons didnt know what they are talking about because either the weapon has the penetration power to go thru 2 inches of steel (which by the way the gattling gun from the american civil war can do that also) or it fires the bullet at hypersonic speeds
So we have two conflicting sources. Why do we have to take the one that gives the bigger number for firepower instead of assuming that 2" penetration through steel is the correct one?
The thing is though as i read up on rail guns though is at the speeds of the ammo gets shot at the molecules in it start to become extremely unstable and start to rip them selves apart so by the time they hit the target they explode. So if the most common replacement ammo the marines use is depleted uranium that would not pierce a target it would cause small nuclear explosin.
Stop using science fiction as a source for how things work. None of this is even remotely correct.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
starraptor wrote: I think i did say that the people who made the sc fluff for the weopons didnt know what they are talking about because either the weapon has the penetration power to go thru 2 inches of steel (which by the way the gattling gun from the american civil war can do that also) or it fires the bullet at hypersonic speeds
So we have two conflicting sources. Why do we have to take the one that gives the bigger number for firepower instead of assuming that 2" penetration through steel is the correct one?
The thing is though as i read up on rail guns though is at the speeds of the ammo gets shot at the molecules in it start to become extremely unstable and start to rip them selves apart so by the time they hit the target they explode. So if the most common replacement ammo the marines use is depleted uranium that would not pierce a target it would cause small nuclear explosin.
Stop using science fiction as a source for how things work. None of this is even remotely correct.
He is correct on that at a high enough speed projectiles explode rather than penetrate. But he's wrong about why they do it.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yeah, you'd have to be shooting something at a velocity approaching the speed of light for the object's impact to cause a nuclear reaction. And then it would happen regardless of the material used.
And Depleted Uranium is the wrong kind of Uranium anyway.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, you'd have to be shooting something at a velocity approaching the speed of light for the object's impact to cause a nuclear reaction. And then it would happen regardless of the material used.
And Depleted Uranium is the wrong kind of Uranium anyway.
Well actually at hypersonic speeds a great deal of things disintegrate and explode rather than penetrate on impact because they're simply not strong enough to remain together in the face of that much kinetic energy. At escape velocity and beyond? Well even trillion ton asteroids can't hold themselves together after the impact.
It's decidedly a physical and not a nuclear reaction though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 18:22:41
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Kain wrote: Well actually at hypersonic speeds a great deal of things disintegrate and explode rather than penetrate on impact because they're simply not strong enough to remain together in the face of that much kinetic energy. At escape velocity and beyond? Well even trillion ton asteroids can't hold themselves together after the impact.
Right, but the point of the quoted post was that depleted uranium is uranium that has been reduced in effectiveness in nuclear reactions. Even if the magic "nuke on impact" thing existed you'd want to use enriched uranium for your bullets.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Kain wrote: Well actually at hypersonic speeds a great deal of things disintegrate and explode rather than penetrate on impact because they're simply not strong enough to remain together in the face of that much kinetic energy. At escape velocity and beyond? Well even trillion ton asteroids can't hold themselves together after the impact.
Right, but the point of the quoted post was that depleted uranium is uranium that has been reduced in effectiveness in nuclear reactions. Even if the magic "nuke on impact" thing existed you'd want to use enriched uranium for your bullets.
True, and I'm fairly sure even gun type fission bombs were a tad more complex.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Most of the 'fluff' from the Codexes tend to be the type that makes peoples eyes bleed with how crazy OTT it is. I would rather believe a novel or game in being more appropriate in terms if general fluff like weapons.
Unlike most of the other Universes depicted in this converation, 40k has an absoutely terrible time agreeing with itself let alone standing up with a solid enough fact to present to competition.
I give this to the SW universe, based on naval superiority. This is not due to numbers nor even the hitting power of their weapons (I believe 40k has numbers slightly and weapon power appears equivalent) but because of resistance, countermeasures and fire control (though for some reason SW severely limits their weapon ranges compared to just about ANY genre...).
Farseer Faenyin 7,100 pts Yme-Loc Eldar(Apoc Included) / 5,700 pts (Non-Apoc) Record for 6th Edition- Eldar: 25-4-2
Record for 7th Edition -
Eldar: 0-0-0 (Yes, I feel it is that bad)
Battlefleet Gothic: 2,750 pts of Craftworld Eldar
X-wing(Focusing on Imperials): CR90, 6 TIE Fighters, 4 TIE Interceptors, TIE Bomber, TIE Advanced, 4 X-wings, 3 A-wings, 3 B-wings, Y-wing, Z-95
Battletech: Battlion and Command Lance of 3025 Mechs(painted as 21st Rim Worlds)
Most of the 'fluff' from the Codexes tend to be the type that makes peoples eyes bleed with how crazy OTT it is. I would rather believe a novel or game in being more appropriate in terms if general fluff like weapons.
Unlike most of the other Universes depicted in this converation, 40k has an absoutely terrible time agreeing with itself let alone standing up with a solid enough fact to present to competition.
I give this to the SW universe, based on naval superiority. This is not due to numbers nor even the hitting power of their weapons (I believe 40k has numbers slightly and weapon power appears equivalent) but because of resistance, countermeasures and fire control (though for some reason SW severely limits their weapon ranges compared to just about ANY genre...).
The Necrons would quite likely obliterate anything seen in Star Wars in space, but the Necrons punch way above the weight class of 40k as a whole.
War in Heaven Era Necrons would probably not even notice any of the SW factions as a threat given their crazier projects.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yeah, they have a room somewhere that has self-destruct buttons for every star in the galaxy.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, they have a room somewhere that has self-destruct buttons for every star in the galaxy.
"Halo rings? Pssh, that's something sissies would make."
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, they have a room somewhere that has self-destruct buttons for every star in the galaxy.
"Halo rings? Pssh, that's something sissies would make."
"Charging up the superlaser? 'Ain't nobody got time fo' dat"
Oh yes, can someone give me a way to get a gun the size of a standard sidearm that could take 30 railgun shots per second that we could agree is not utterly stupid?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 20:43:53
"My strength is as the strength of ten because my heart is pure"
"Really, well, there's twelve of them"
I never said it wasnt stupid. And sorry if i got confused about the exploding, and I was not quoting a fictious source i was actually quoting the U.s. navys explanation on how the railgun system works. I might have gotten confused about the nuclear explosin part though so sorry. It was kinda of diffacult reading thru alot of the science terms. I figured when it said the progectiles molecules started to break down causing explosion at that speeds, I thought it meant at an atomic lv. Obviously it did not. Because i do know atomic weapons work by splitting the atoms of an unstable element like uranium.
Grey Templar wrote: Yeah, they have a room somewhere that has self-destruct buttons for every star in the galaxy.
"Halo rings? Pssh, that's something sissies would make."
"Charging up the superlaser? 'Ain't nobody got time fo' dat"
Oh yes, can someone give me a way to get a gun the size of a standard sidearm that could take 30 railgun shots per second that we could agree is not utterly stupid?
Well in Strike Legion you could reenact the Exterminatus of Typhon Primaris with some space vans, pistols, and a grenade.
But Strike Legion is a parody of Scifi as a whole, and 40k is one of the most heavily parodied elements in it.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
Really the only way I could feasibly see railguns working is torus-shaped magnetic fields, to stop the barrel from melting, but I cannot see how we could get that on a semi-automatic sidearm scale. This being because the gun would have to completely seal the ammunition, meaning that it would take stupid amounts of energy to turn it off and on 30+ times per second. Also the size issue get brought into play, when you consider the minimum sizes that would be needed to prevent the gases from cooking the gun barrel.
"My strength is as the strength of ten because my heart is pure"
"Really, well, there's twelve of them"
Something I was wondering in this discussion. Where did the steel penetration depth for bolt rounds come from? I've checked out some references but it hasn't come up.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
PhrycePhyre wrote: Really the only way I could feasibly see railguns working is torus-shaped magnetic fields, to stop the barrel from melting, but I cannot see how we could get that on a semi-automatic sidearm scale. This being because the gun would have to completely seal the ammunition, meaning that it would take stupid amounts of energy to turn it off and on 30+ times per second. Also the size issue get brought into play, when you consider the minimum sizes that would be needed to prevent the gases from cooking the gun barrel.
Well we are pretty close to a practical working railgun for mounting on ships.
From there its just a matter of miniaturizing the components.
It may only ever be something like a man-portable anti-tank weapon and not a submachine gun.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Flinty wrote: Something I was wondering in this discussion. Where did the steel penetration depth for bolt rounds come from? I've checked out some references but it hasn't come up.
I was wondering this myself. Lexicanum’s quite extensive article on the boltgun does not mention anything about how good the bolts are at penetration things.
If a bolt is able to penetrate up to ten inches of steel plating, then it isn’t reflected in its AP.
amanita wrote: So dare I ask what happens if he farts? Could it blow the seals on the lower portion of his armor? Or is a space marine's system immune to such mundane fluctuations of bodily conduct?
Moktor wrote: No one should be complaining about this codex. It gave regular Eldar a much needed buff by allowing us to drop Fire Dragons and D-Scythe Wraithguard wherever we want, without scatter. Without this, I almost lost a game once. It was scary. I almost took to buying fixed dice to ensure it never happened again.
Yaknow, the whole "high scale-low scale" argument looses some meaning when you realize that the highest scale SC sources are still nowhere near as powerful as the lowest scale 40K sources.
You know what a starcraft class railgun can do? it can go through a PLANET and exit from the other side, and this is the weakest main faction of 40K building these in armadas.
If we take the higher end, necrons can make suns blow up be simply pushing a button on a computer in one of their worlds, regardless of where it is, without any projectile, any means to stop it, or in fact any requirements to use it except not being too willing to do so because of the insane uncalculateable side effects.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
.
Farseer Faenyin 
7,100 pts Yme-Loc Eldar(Apoc Included) / 5,700 pts (Non-Apoc) 
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
