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 mortetvie wrote:
Deployment:
Games are won or lost with deployment (especially with Eldar) so glad people finally saw I was right .

Shuriken Cannon upgrade:
The Shruiken Cannon upgrades are "meh" as you either need to move 6" to fire everything or be in 24" and that seldom comes into play for me as I am generally moving 12" to get into good positions/kite and am keeping the opponent out of range.

I recommend ONLY getting Shuriken Cannon upgrades on serpents that will get close to other units (like ones delivering close ranged units) or if you have nothing else to spend points on. Seriously, staying out of range/danger>extra 3 shots. =)

Serpent Shield/serpent survivability:
I generally only like to drop my shield when I will know the extra shots are going to do some damage (like against weak armor save units in cover/light vehicles/the Scatter Lasers hit against a Flyer/FMC). Otherwise, I tend to keep them up when I know I will be potentially facing a lot of incoming fire. Also, I see no reason not to try to at least get some cover from ruins/hills as that 4+ cover goes to 3+. There is also nothing wrong with moving/turbo-boosting the heck out of there to put a lot of distance between you and opponent-sure you lose a turn of shooting but you also essentially force your opponent's forces that are closing in on you to be in a position like they were in deployment/turn 1.

Dealing with Wraiths:
Other than that, when I face hard units like Wraithspam, I try really hard to get Misfortune and roll on the Divination table like crazy to get it =).


Reserves:
Regarding the reserves issue, the FAQ says reserve ROLLS are made at beginning of the turn but does not address when reserves actually come on the board so it's still unclear even after GW's faq =(. Basically, I just clarify the rules with TOs before the tournament so there are no issues as TOs can run rules however they want. No point arguing when it can go either way.

Thank you for taking the time to share your insights on the new eldar. I've heard a lot about your skills as an eldar player. Maybe one of these days we can get a game on if we ever meet in a West Coast tournament (i.e. BAO or the Las Vegas Open) or perhaps when I am down in SoCal.

Shuriken Cannons I will decide whether I want to keep or not after some more play-testing. I do see its advantages and disadvantages. Dropping them for more spiders do sound very tempting however.

It's hard not to use the Serpent Shield offensively against an army such as my wraithwing crons. I need all the firepower I can get! Besides, I am more concerned about his teslas glancing me to death then I am about them exploding my serpents. And as it turned out, the majority of his serpent kills were from glances more than anything else.

Getting Misfortune would be great. I only rolled once for Runes of Fate powers to try to get Doom and when I didn't get it, took Guide instead. I then rolled for my 2 other powers on Divination. I feel that is the best way to do it.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea I have to agree reserving the spiders was smart in this game, he needs them to hit rear armor and take down scythes and their is no better way to due this then drop in behind them the turn after they arrive. It also makes the necron player decide whether they want to go back and deal with an expendable unit or continue being harassed from behind. I do think using DS as a default strategy is a mistake but against NS and hell turkeys I believe it's the best move.

However I am starting to think star engines are better then the SC as it would allow the WS to fire from long range until threatened and then boost over and well out of the threat range of the wraiths for example in this game. I think it also ensures in most games you can grab an objective in 2 turns rather then 3 when the deployment is hammer and anvil. The SC seems fine on WS carrying things like fire dragons and storm guardians though.

I may experiment with star engines. I could've used them in this game to get away!

I will be up in the Pleasanton area for the Golden Throne GT if you wana get a game in on Thursday/Friday night or the weekend thereafter =). Otherwise, I would totally be down for a game should we ever cross paths!

Regarding Eldar and your game/current meta:
I think that Cron air with Wraithspam; Flying Circus demons/CSM; Sabre spamming IG; and, other mechdar, are probably going to be the biggest threats for Eldar in general. Tau are not too bad because you can generally out range/maneuver them and pull their tricks against them. So your game in this battle report is against what I would consider a relatively tough match-up because Telsa spam and Wraiths are so deadly and if dice are hot or cold then that can end the game right there =(.

I think if I play against similar list as you have played here I would focus down the Wraith unit with no Necron lord in it first then move a serpent to block line of sight to a necron lord in a wraith unit and light up the other wraiths so no tanking shots for the lord (out of los means he can't be allocated wounds). I also tend to run a unit of D-Scythe wraithguard so once wraiths get close enough I use those to hopefully light up the Wraiths and hope the Necron lord fails a LOS for any 6s to wound I roll =). Regardless, it definitely seemed like the dice were not in your favor this game!

Battle report completed.

Well that was completely unexpected. Despite tremendous bad luck on Jy2's part such as:
-Early high run moves on Wraiths
-My Necron Overlord tanking ton load of damage in a single turn.
-Scaring off a whole unit of Guardians with a lone single wounded Wraith
-Jy2 failing 3/4 3+ saves on is Jetbikes

Jy2 some how manage to pull out a draw. I'm not sure if him remembering his Farseer has hit and run would have made a difference. That punk manage to survive prolong combat against my Wraiths and might have won.

Well done Jy2! I can accept those results.

Edit:

A lot of people mentioned how deploying far back and kiting might have made a difference. My Wraiths hardly touched Jy2's Wave Serpents. It was the Tesla Destructors from my Night Scythes and barges that took out Jy2's mobility. Argument is moot I suppose.

 mortetvie wrote:
I will be up in the Pleasanton area for the Golden Throne GT if you wana get a game in on Thursday/Friday night or the weekend thereafter =). Otherwise, I would totally be down for a game should we ever cross paths!

Regarding Eldar and your game/current meta:
I think that Cron air with Wraithspam; Flying Circus demons/CSM; Sabre spamming IG; and, other mechdar, are probably going to be the biggest threats for Eldar in general. Tau are not too bad because you can generally out range/maneuver them and pull their tricks against them. So your game in this battle report is against what I would consider a relatively tough match-up because Telsa spam and Wraiths are so deadly and if dice are hot or cold then that can end the game right there =(.

I think if I play against similar list as you have played here I would focus down the Wraith unit with no Necron lord in it first then move a serpent to block line of sight to a necron lord in a wraith unit and light up the other wraiths so no tanking shots for the lord (out of los means he can't be allocated wounds). I also tend to run a unit of D-Scythe wraithguard so once wraiths get close enough I use those to hopefully light up the Wraiths and hope the Necron lord fails a LOS for any 6s to wound I roll =). Regardless, it definitely seemed like the dice were not in your favor this game!

Sure. Just give me a PM when the time gets closer.

Yeah, tesla actually did the most damage in this game. It was almost won by necron shooting, not their assault.

There's only 1 way to find out. Perhaps I will take my necrons against your eldar when we meet. You'll going to see how good they really are when run by an expert cron player.

 SabrX wrote:
Well that was completely unexpected. Despite tremendous bad luck on Jy2's part such as:
-Early high run moves on Wraiths
-My Necron Overlord tanking ton load of damage in a single turn.
-Scaring off a whole unit of Guardians with a lone single wounded Wraith
-Jy2 failing 3/4 3+ saves on is Jetbikes

Jy2 some how manage to pull out a draw. I'm not sure if him remembering his Farseer has hit and run would have made a difference. That punk manage to survive prolong combat against my Wraiths and might have won.

Well done Jy2! I can accept those results.

Edit:

A lot of people mentioned how deploying far back and kiting might have made a difference. My Wraiths hardly touched Jy2's Wave Serpents. It was the Tesla Destructors from my Night Scythes and barges that took out Jy2's mobility. Argument is moot I suppose.

Honestly, I'm not quite sure how I pulled it off also. The way you were making your saves and how hot your teslas were, this game really should have been yours. With the exception of my Warlord not dying, I really didn't have much luck at all in this game. One thing I felt you probably could have done better was how you played your wraiths. Once you took the center, you should have probably spread them out more to create a much bigger threat radius. Split off your non-Walord D-lord if you had to. By that time, my firepower was practically gone (with the exception of my spiders, who were quite determined to ignore everything but your flyers) so you didn't really need him to tank for your wraiths anymore. But that is really something you learn with experience.

I've got to give it to my spiders this game. They were amazing and the MVP's for me this game.

I may be wrong but on turn 4, it looks like your guardians got in the wave serpent which then turbo boosted. I don't think vehicles can turbo boost after troops embark/disembark. At any rate the game was well played.

@bronzi - I think you may be thinking about tank shocks/ramming. A vehicle that hasn't moved before passengers embark can move normal/turbo boost.


Edit: whoops forgot to say, what an ending! Dramatic comeback for the draw JY2!

Good game... close and very interesting to follow.

If you're making a purely competitive list, I think Iyanden is the way to go. The warlord trait table is just plain better... and against some armies (NOT these Necrons) making a Wraithknight your warlord is a pretty safe idea.

Bronzino88 wrote:
I may be wrong but on turn 4, it looks like your guardians got in the wave serpent which then turbo boosted. I don't think vehicles can turbo boost after troops embark/disembark. At any rate the game was well played.

Yes, that was how I played it. I don't have my book right now but if you are right, then I did make a mistake.

However, I don't think it would have changed the outcome. My spiders would have still contested the objective or probably shot his warriors off of the objective. My serpent would have also contributed to shooting his warriors off the objective if it had survived.

That was a really well played end game. Good job jy2 on pulling off a draw despite everything.

Welll played endgame J, you really consolidated on some small errors on the Necron side and it paid off.

Tbh your spiders did a really good game with the tactics you had in mind.
However i am still sure that gunlining in this match up with the help of the seer would maybe have wipede 1 or 2 units. of wraiths.
If he then focusses on them with flyers and barges, it will give your serpents free reign.

What are your thoughts about your list? would you take lets say a spider less on each unit to upgrade the big guy with a suncannon or even scatterlasers? it would make him more flexible.

Weren't those the spiders who had just regrouped? If so, I'm afraid they're not allowed to Run; barring ATSKNF, you don't get to move at all after the 3" consolidation in the round you regroup.

Very interesting game, and Eldar can muster a truly disturbing amount of quality firepower, and that's without bringing in any of their Dark cousins. What's a poor Tyranid to do anymore? Zoanthropes need access to Divination, so I can get some Forewarning on my Gargoyles!

After close inspection I found out why Jy2 was having bad luck with his dice and SabrX had good fortune with his....One of my dice somehow found its way to the table and you were using it as an objective marker , the 4pt one to be exact. Apparently my dice wanted to make Jim pay for having me lose! (I hope you kept those dice btw)

In a more serious tone I was not expecting the draw and more info on how necrons play is always good to know

Janthkin is correct so technically a win for SabrX... Nice shot at the comeback though. Oh so close.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Janthkin is correct so technically a win for SabrX... Nice shot at the comeback though. Oh so close.

Unofficially win, but officially a draw (since we've already played it).

Wow, another mistake in this game. Time to re-read BRB. Being on hiatus has made me rusty.

 Janthkin wrote:
Weren't those the spiders who had just regrouped? If so, I'm afraid they're not allowed to Run; barring ATSKNF, you don't get to move at all after the 3" consolidation in the round you regroup.

Very interesting game, and Eldar can muster a truly disturbing amount of quality firepower, and that's without bringing in any of their Dark cousins. What's a poor Tyranid to do anymore? Zoanthropes need access to Divination, so I can get some Forewarning on my Gargoyles!

Wow....you are correct. Never knew that you couldn't run after regrouping.

Ok, so SabrX takes this one. Oh, so close.

I will change the results tomorrow. Bedtime for me right now.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Janthkin is correct so technically a win for SabrX... Nice shot at the comeback though. Oh so close.

Damn spiders...why did they have to fail Morale. I must've failed morale just from shooting/pinning at least 5 times this game....and that doesn't even include combat!

 SabrX wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Janthkin is correct so technically a win for SabrX... Nice shot at the comeback though. Oh so close.

Unofficially win, but officially a draw (since we've already played it).

Wow, another mistake in this game. Time to re-read BRB. Being on hiatus has made me rusty.

I give it to you. I would not have made it to contest if we played it right.

Congrats on the win. Necrons take it. I will change the results tomorrow.

Way to go Jim. : )

Yep, this was definitely a learning game for both sides. Are you going to do a rematch? I'm curious how the game would go if a few of the mistakes were not made.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea I have to agree reserving the spiders was smart in this game, he needs them to hit rear armor and take down scythes and their is no better way to due this then drop in behind them the turn after they arrive. It also makes the necron player decide whether they want to go back and deal with an expendable unit or continue being harassed from behind. I do think using DS as a default strategy is a mistake but against NS and hell turkeys I believe it's the best move.

I'm not a necron player but was playing against one this last weekend and he told me that their flyer was AV11 on all sides... so firing into the rear would be pointless... was I lied to?

No, all codex Necron vehicles have (at least) rear armour 11.

No, you weren't lied to. 11 all round.

So the only real reason then to get to the backfield would be to hit the rear of the AB, which would only be 11 versus the front/side of AV 13...

hind sight is always 20/20, but I would have taken out the ABs first with the spiders. Sure the flyers were more of a late game threat, but the ABs were doing more damage to your forces, and would have been much easier to take out, earlier in the game. <shrug>

Wwooops! Poor deployment on both sides. Someone forgot serpent shields have 60 in range! And someone else forgot that a refused flank can cut their opponents firepower in half for a turn while they have to reposition!

Nice job coming back with a draw, but all of the mistakes make it hard to get a clear idea of how these two armies really match up.

Thanks for the report.

Bronzino88 wrote:
I may be wrong but on turn 4, it looks like your guardians got in the wave serpent which then turbo boosted. I don't think vehicles can turbo boost after troops embark/disembark. At any rate the game was well played.

Chancetragedy wrote:
@bronzi - I think you may be thinking about tank shocks/ramming. A vehicle that hasn't moved before passengers embark can move normal/turbo boost.


Edit: whoops forgot to say, what an ending! Dramatic comeback for the draw JY2!

After going through the books again, looks like I've made another mistake again. Bronzino is correct. I moved my serpent, the guys got in and then the serpent moved flat-out again.

The mistake was made because this is the first time I've ran a skimmer transport and came across this situation in all of 6th Ed. Thanks for pointing it out, Bronzino.

However, it still wouldn't have changed the outcome IMO.

 DexKivuli wrote:
Good game... close and very interesting to follow.

If you're making a purely competitive list, I think Iyanden is the way to go. The warlord trait table is just plain better... and against some armies (NOT these Necrons) making a Wraithknight your warlord is a pretty safe idea.

I'm actually interested in running eldar as allies in one of my lists. I don't have the Iyanden supplement. Can you run a 2 WK's in an allied attachment - 1 as HQ and 1 as Heavy?

 Valek wrote:
Welll played endgame J, you really consolidated on some small errors on the Necron side and it paid off.

Tbh your spiders did a really good game with the tactics you had in mind.
However i am still sure that gunlining in this match up with the help of the seer would maybe have wipede 1 or 2 units. of wraiths.
If he then focusses on them with flyers and barges, it will give your serpents free reign.

What are your thoughts about your list? would you take lets say a spider less on each unit to upgrade the big guy with a suncannon or even scatterlasers? it would make him more flexible.

It's hard to say. The problem with deploying my spiders with the rest of the army is that they'll most likely be trapped in their own deployment zones. I won't be able to advance them because of all the wraiths. Also, I felt it was more of a priority to take out the night scythes with troops in them as opposed to the wraiths. As a seasoned necron player, I know that the wraiths are just a distraction unit meant to keep the army busy and out of position. That is how I've been winning most of my necron games anyhow. Then his scythes would have been able to come in unthreatened and have free reign with their shooting. You need to have a unit in their backfield to threaten such an army. That is how you need to play against wraithwing necrons - don't let them box you in and force them to split up. From my experiences, wiping out the wraiths can still lose you the game. Positioning is paramount when facing wraithwing necrons.

After this game, I'm actually thinking about taking out 1 wave serpent + troops and rounding out the list with other units. Perhaps war walkers or maybe some more spiders. Spiders are so unfricking believably good, though it's going to cost an arm and a leg if I go this route.

I don't have the Iyanden supplement. Can you run a 2 WK's in an allied attachment - 1 as HQ and 1 as Heavy?

Going Iyanden, a WK can be your Warlord, but that doesnt make it a HQ.

 Janthkin wrote:

Very interesting game, and Eldar can muster a truly disturbing amount of quality firepower, and that's without bringing in any of their Dark cousins. What's a poor Tyranid to do anymore? Zoanthropes need access to Divination, so I can get some Forewarning on my Gargoyles!

You can't get Forewarning, but I guess Invisibility is the next best thing. How's about Telekine Dome? Or just go f**k it, take 2x30 gargoyles.

GTKA666 wrote:
After close inspection I found out why Jy2 was having bad luck with his dice and SabrX had good fortune with his....One of my dice somehow found its way to the table and you were using it as an objective marker , the 4pt one to be exact. Apparently my dice wanted to make Jim pay for having me lose! (I hope you kept those dice btw)

In a more serious tone I was not expecting the draw and more info on how necrons play is always good to know

Yup, I've got it. You forgot it on the table and I actually didn't notice it until after the game when we were cleaning up.

You can get a taste of my necrons later. Tonight, you have some monstrous creatures to face. And no, it's not going to be daemons. Instead, you are looking at the Grey Knights.....and Eldar!

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Way to go Jim. : )

Thanks. I did the best I could under the circumstances. And mistakes will be unavoidable when you are playing a new army for the first (or second) time ever.

 Redemption wrote:
Yep, this was definitely a learning game for both sides. Are you going to do a rematch? I'm curious how the game would go if a few of the mistakes were not made.

Not planning to. Once is enough. Time to test out my army against different builds.

However, the closest you will probably get to a rematch is if I play against Mortevie's mechdar.

Then you're going to see a very good necron player versus a very good eldar player and I guarantee you that sparks will fly.

Moridan wrote:
So the only real reason then to get to the backfield would be to hit the rear of the AB, which would only be 11 versus the front/side of AV 13...

hind sight is always 20/20, but I would have taken out the ABs first with the spiders. Sure the flyers were more of a late game threat, but the ABs were doing more damage to your forces, and would have been much easier to take out, earlier in the game. <shrug>

There is that aspect of being able to hit his vehicles in the rear.

But more importantly, I did it more for positioning. Try to split up his wraiths and to be able to threaten his backfield units at the same time. The problem with playing against wraithwing is that if you get boxed in by them, that is a recipe for disaster in most cases. As a matter of fact, as a necron wraithwing player, that is how I win the majority of my games. I win not really in the Shooting or Assault phases, but in the Movement phase.

 hippesthippo wrote:
Wwooops! Poor deployment on both sides. Someone forgot serpent shields have 60 in range! And someone else forgot that a refused flank can cut their opponents firepower in half for a turn while they have to reposition!

Nice job coming back with a draw, but all of the mistakes make it hard to get a clear idea of how these two armies really match up.

Thanks for the report.

I find that games will never happen as you expect. Dice tends to skew the results.

Fortunately, both armies are forgiving. You can afford to make a couple of mistakes and still bounce back.

This game was exactly how I envisioned - a tight, close game between 2 very good armies that also could have been anyone's game....even with the bad luck for eldar and mistakes on both sides.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moridan wrote:

I don't have the Iyanden supplement. Can you run a 2 WK's in an allied attachment - 1 as HQ and 1 as Heavy?

Going Iyanden, a WK can be your Warlord, but that doesnt make it a HQ.

Bummer.

I so wanted to run 2 wraithknights and 3 dreadknights.

MTO Necrons are one of your best lists. I also liked a lot the Crowe GK psyspam.

3 dreadknights and a wk... may Slanesh not learn of this battle for I fear the fall of the eldar start now!

I think you're underestimating Warp Spider movement, their insane ability to get to a backfield even without Deep Striking. As long as you're willing to Warp Jump, they'll have a 50% chance to move at least 24 inches in a single turn, and that's not even including the Fleet reroll for Run (this was quick math). It's 85% of at least 20 inches movement, again not counting Fleet.

I think that's worth it over deep striking unless your opponent deployed as far back as possible.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
MTO Necrons are one of your best lists. I also liked a lot the Crowe GK psyspam.

MTO crons are still very good, though I fear my Crowe-Purifiers aren't quite what they used to be. I actually have a losing record with them so far in 6th.

GTKA666 wrote:
3 dreadknights and a wk... may Slanesh not learn of this battle for I fear the fall of the eldar start now!

Don't forget Draigo. He's a monster in his own right.

Quark wrote:
I think you're underestimating Warp Spider movement, their insane ability to get to a backfield even without Deep Striking. As long as you're willing to Warp Jump, they'll have a 50% chance to move at least 24 inches in a single turn, and that's not even including the Fleet reroll for Run (this was quick math). It's 85% of at least 20 inches movement, again not counting Fleet.

I think that's worth it over deep striking unless your opponent deployed as far back as possible.

It's not so much as I am under-estimating Warp Spider movement as it is you may be under-estimating wraithwing movement. Keep in mind we are playing Hammer & Anvil against 18 wraiths and 2 D-lords. They have a potential 18-24" threat range in any direction, or a potential 36-48" diameter threat range. If they spread out, you just can't get past them, especially if you take into consideration that you want to keep your spiders at least 18" away from them at the end of each turn. That means that if the spiders deploy with the rest of the army, they will most likely have to stay there until you can kill the majority of the wraiths, which by then may be Turns 3 or 4 already.

Now I am not saying that it isn't a good idea to deploy with the rest of the army. It's just my experience as a wraithwing player tells me that the best way to break out of their trap is to get behind them while they are advancing - either by flyers, outflanking or deepstriking. That's a guarantee that you won't get caught in their net and that you will get the beta-strike while losing a little firepower initially.