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Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 d-usa wrote:
America is different and unique and nothing that ever works anywhere else could actually work here.


Except for made up things like UK healthcare rationing or the steady collapse of France under its welfare system. Whenever there's made up stories about how terrible things are elsewhere then the obvious reaction is to never, ever do anything like that.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 d-usa wrote:
America is different and unique and nothing that ever works anywhere else could actually work here.


I'm stealing that for my signature. Have an exalt as well.


For the record, the minimum wage (which isn't a minimum wage per se, but whatever) for rookie restaurant workers in Sweden is $19 an hour. Let that sink in for a while, and then consider that Sweden went relatively unscathed through the GFC (not saying we didn't take a hit, but we're much better off than most of Europe).

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but instead of having, say, 5 wait staff they cut down to 4. Or maybe 3.

And with facilities that are already barebones you only ensure that they will remain that. There is no incentive for expansion or more hiring.


Ethical argumentation aside, you have a very bizare view of economics that completely fails to take into account how money moves around.

I mean, even if we went with the presumption that all these budget businesses would somehow find ways of reducing staffing levels even further, the fact that the remaining staff would earn more would still impact on the economy positively. By earning more, they'd have more to spend on services and luxury products themselves, which would in turn create jobs (which could quite reasonably be filled by the people who would have otherwise been employed at the first place).

Economics is an extremely complicated science, and never has black/white impacts.

But the fact that a goodly number of first world nations have livable minimum wages and comparable level of unemployment to the US? It indicates through a basic application of logic that the two are not particularly related at this level, and that making a minimum wage a living wage does not result in a massive boost to unemployment.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/07/18 07:42:20



 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





He won't listen.

He's heard the fairytale of the Welfare Queen too many times.

I fear this one is already lost.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

What's the point of a living minimum wage if all those other countries don't have FREEDOM!
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 d-usa wrote:
What's the point of a living minimum wage if all those other countries don't have FREEDOM!


I think your 'freedom' needs more exclamation marks and letters alternating between red, white and blue. I suspect you don't love America enough, citizen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 07:58:59


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 sebster wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
What's the point of a living minimum wage if all those other countries don't have:

!!!FREEDOM!!!


I think your 'freedom' needs more exclamation marks and letters alternating between red, white and blue. I suspect you don't love America enough, citizen.


Sorry...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/18 08:02:01


 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 d-usa wrote:
 sebster wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
What's the point of a living minimum wage if all those other countries don't have:

!!!FREEDOM!!!


I think your 'freedom' needs more exclamation marks and letters alternating between red, white and blue. I suspect you don't love America enough, citizen.


Sorry...


Now that's a man who loves his country

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

Not to play the man rather than the ball, but Grey Templar, aren't you a fairly devout christian?
Jesus was all about helping the poor and had a healthy disdain for rich people who hoard their wealth.

How do you square that with the circle of your disdain for any kind of programs to help the poor past the basic ones already in place? This always fascinates me because I've seen a lot of it from hardcore christians in the US, but not at all as much from hardcore christians in other places I've lived.

   
Made in gb
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





 Da Boss wrote:
Not to play the man rather than the ball, but Grey Templar, aren't you a fairly devout christian?
Jesus was all about helping the poor and had a healthy disdain for rich people who hoard their wealth.

How do you square that with the circle of your disdain for any kind of programs to help the poor past the basic ones already in place? This always fascinates me because I've seen a lot of it from hardcore christians in the US, but not at all as much from hardcore christians in other places I've lived.


It's the slightly strange Protestant work ethic concept that is prevalent in the US. The idea is that people should help themselves with hard work, but is used to justify not helping the poor and that people in low paid jobs are there not because of failings in society, business or education but that they choose to be there and that if they work harder they will not.

Also the capitalist idea that every market is a free market, which is not the case.

 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think more then two jobs may be bad for your health. But two jobs isnt bad. What is bad is telling people in order to live on their wage, go get another job. It is like Wal-Mart having a Welfare office in every store for its employees.


How so? I wasn't happy with my standard of living provided by one job, so I work two jobs. The real tragedy here is that people who have >1 job are taxed more heavily than those with a single job. That is a fething tragedy - you work harder, so they tax you harder.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 15:15:40


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[MOD]
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Somewhere in south-central England.

There are many retired executives in the UK who work several jobs as non-executive directors.

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Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
That is a fething tragedy - you work harder, so they tax you harder.


Just imagine how you are going to feel when you realize that there are people that don't work hard at all, make far more, and are taxed far more, though probably at a smaller percent after tax shelters and things like that.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 azazel the cat wrote:
He won't listen.

He's heard the fairytale of the Welfare Queen too many times.

I fear this one is already lost.


Didn't you hear that the one congressmen was able to feed himself on his food stamps?
nevermind he didn't account for any non food costs, or that the diet would kill him in a few years

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Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Ahtman wrote:
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
That is a fething tragedy - you work harder, so they tax you harder.


Just imagine how you are going to feel when you realize that there are people that don't work hard at all, make far more, and are taxed far more, though probably at a smaller percent after tax shelters and things like that.


I was told that we should treasure those people, because they create jobs and allow us to work for them, so they're generous and humane individuals.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Indeed, just swell humanists.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 sebster wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but instead of having, say, 5 wait staff they cut down to 4. Or maybe 3.


No, they won't, and I just explained why. Don't just keep repeating a basic summary of your argument.

Anyhow, to repeat - paying the remaining staff 20% more doesn't make them clean tables 20% faster and get the job done. And if it did, the company would just have done that in the first place, because finding a way to get the job done for less money spent is the whole fething point of capitalism.

And with facilities that are already barebones you only ensure that they will remain that. There is no incentive for expansion or more hiring.


If expansion is viable opportunity then it's unlikely that a minimum wage $1 an hour higher will change that. After all, I don't know if you've ever been outside the US, but we have restaurants all over the place, and a much higher minimum wage.


They don't have to clean the tables 20% faster. They could even be slightly slower compared to what they were with more people on staff.

but if the reduction in speed is acceptable compared to the savings in salary then they will do it.


You are assuming the employer will make no compromise in expectations. This is nonsensical.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Think the notion or implied threat to fire someone has a tendency to pick up one production. One person = clean 20 tables in under 20 min can happen

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Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Da Boss wrote:
Not to play the man rather than the ball, but Grey Templar, aren't you a fairly devout christian?
Jesus was all about helping the poor and had a healthy disdain for rich people who hoard their wealth.

How do you square that with the circle of your disdain for any kind of programs to help the poor past the basic ones already in place? This always fascinates me because I've seen a lot of it from hardcore christians in the US, but not at all as much from hardcore christians in other places I've lived.


Sure, but taking care of the poor is the individual responsibility. Not the government.

And being rich doesn't make you a bad person. Being someone who loves their money does.

The rich have to be given the choice between helping those less fortunate then themselves, or not helping. You can't and shouldn't force charity.


How would you like it if there was a mandated 10% taken out of your paycheck to fund the local food bank/homeless shelter/orphanage/etc... You have no say where that money goes. Maybe you want it to go to the local homeless shelter, but instead it gets shuffled out of state where someone in a government office decided the need is greater.

And what prevents the government from using that money for other things instead of what they were supposedly earmarked for?

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Grey Templar wrote:

You are assuming the employer will make no compromise in expectations. This is nonsensical.


I agree. It is nonsensical when employers make no compromise in expectations.

I find it constantly happening.

One of our teams in our support center here had half the people jump ship (which should be an interesting warning indicator of its own). Rather than backfill those positions, even after given sufficient call data to rationalize why they needed it, people now handle about twice the calls, clients have twice the wait, any issue below a business critical (clients threatening to cancel) gets disregarded in favor of taking care of the ones that are, and their manager is in hot water because he can't "make them work harder".

Meanwhile, I myself have been "promoted" from doing high level technical work to designing internal websites that do not add value compared with working on outstanding client issues. I have no background in graphic design and I'm colorblind on top of that.

Perhaps I'm in a strange place, but I find every day a matter of waking up and finding out what bizarre non-negotiable expectations are being thrust upon me.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




WA

 d-usa wrote:
 sebster wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
What's the point of a living minimum wage if all those other countries don't have:

!!!FREEDOM!!!


I think your 'freedom' needs more exclamation marks and letters alternating between red, white and blue. I suspect you don't love America enough, citizen.


Sorry...


Yup... Sigged

"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa

"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch

FREEDOM!!!
- d-usa 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

It is a weird situation and counter-intuitive, but it is what happens and should be taken into account. Which many people simply do not.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Daedalus be sure to use lots of fusia and day glow orange.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 18:35:19


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Frazzled wrote:
Daedalus be sure to use ots of fusia and day glow orange.


The sick thing is that day glow orange is actually one of our corporate colors. :(

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

That explains so much...

Ours uses "my eyes! it burns!!!" red and white.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

 daedalus wrote:
Meanwhile, I myself have been "promoted" from doing high level technical work to designing internal websites that do not add value compared with working on outstanding client issues. I have no background in graphic design and I'm colorblind on top of that.

Perhaps I'm in a strange place, but I find every day a matter of waking up and finding out what bizarre non-negotiable expectations are being thrust upon me.


Make sure there are kittens and lensflare on everything!

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Made in us
Brutal Black Orc




The Empire State

Kind of curious how they expect people to work 2 jobs when it seems as though they are not flexible with their schedules at all.

Know some people who worked at McDonald's and never had a fixed scheduled to be able to coordinated with another job.

there are 6 Mcdonalds within a 1.1 mile radius of me (shameful I know).

There is always a help wanted sign on their doors. All of them have "Must be available all hours."



 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Well the schedule is for when you quit McDonalds...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 18:52:17


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Brutal Black Orc




The Empire State

 rubiksnoob wrote:
That's what they get for being poor! They're just asking to get poorer! Blame the victim!


hahahahahahahahahaha


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
Well the schedule is for when you quit McDonalds...


as a result for pissing in the food?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/18 19:02:40


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Orc Big'Un





Somewhere in the steamy jungles of the south...

The main problem with I have with a lot of the arguments against the minimum wage is the simple fact that upwards mobility in the US is dying out, and at the same time the wealth gap is gaping wider and wider. Long-term I see a future for America not unlike that envisioned in the satirical novel Snowcrash, a future in which the #1 source of employment is the low-wage service industry and people go to college to get degrees in burger flipping(I did say it was satire). The last 2 generations grew up in an age that was comparatively full of opportunities for moving up the social/economic ladder. The same is not true today. I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee already...

And don't get me started on the fact that most minimum wage workers are in college and have to pay for books and tuition and the myriad other costs associated with getting an education that will probably land you in a marginally-better or worse paying job than what your parents had...

~Tim?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/18 19:07:43


   
 
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