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Okay so I'm starting to plan out a project where I'm going to build a series of 9 Chaos Lords, 1 lord from each of the Traitor legions, with Abaddon representing the Black legion. They're going to be standing in the midst of a now ruined imperial temple that has been converted into a chaos alter. in blood on the ground of the temple will be the Chaos Star and at each point of the star will be one of the lords with Abaddon in the middle. Each of the lords and Abaddon will be providing a sacrifice of their "arch Enemy" to enact some sort of Chaos ritual. So basically I will have 9 Chaos Lords with the body of a loyalist marine at their feet. For Abaddon I've already decided he's going to have the body of a Sanguinary guard with the head torn off and being crushed in the Talon of Horus. The Thousand Sons lord will have a Space Wolf being suspended by magic. The Word Bearers Lord will have an Ultramarine Chaplin. So here is my question:

Who would be the most apt arch enemy/most hated loyalist chapter/legion for:

World Eaters?
Iron Warriors?
Night Lords?
Emperor's Children?
Death Guard?
Alpha Legion?

I was thinking of Imperial Fists for the Iron Warriors, and Black Templars for the World Eaters. I figured that the Iron Warriors would be somewhat bitter about the Imperial fists being... well who they are during the Heresy. And there's the entire "Best in siege warfare" vs the "Best in Defense and fortification" angle. I was thinking the Black Templar for the World Eaters largely because of the passage in Butcher's Nails where Karn expessed some dismay at the thought of killing.... bah I can't remember his name. The dude who basically because the first High Marshall of the Black Templars because Dorn appointed him the "Emperor's Champion" during the siege of Terra. And then I was thinking about the Night Lords and considered that it was Dorn who tried to confine Kurze thus giving some credence to the idea that the Imperial Fists would be considered the closest to being the Arch Enemies of the Night Lords.

And then I realize that that would be 3 Imperial Fist, or successor from Imp Fists, sacrifices. Yeah. Can't do that. So who else would be most appropriate as a "Most hated" enemy to the respective legions?


as a general guide for the scope I want to proceed with this, here is an image of a previous rendition of Abaddon I built:

Emperors Children = Iron hands.
Iron warriors = Imp fists

those 2 are definate.. im not exactly sure on the rest

Death guard would hate anyone that used a lot of tanks and transports I think.

What you can do is just have 1 of each loyal legion

 kinratha wrote:

What you can do is just have 1 of each loyal legion

yes. That's actually exactly what I am intending to do and was expressly what I was describing in my original post.

This is from the HH: Betrayal allies matrix. The following will not ally with the other outside of the Warmaster's Command (Apoc Rules), so I equate this to hatred.

Emperor's Children -> Iron Hands, Night Lords
Iron Warriors -> Imperial Fists
Night Lords -> Dark Angels, Emperor's Children, Imperial Fists
World Eaters -> Ultramarines, Alpha Legion
Death Guard -> Thousand Sons
Thousand Sons -> Space Wolves, Death Guard
Alpha Legion -> World Eaters

On an interesting note, the Sons of Horus legion didn't hate anyone, but distrusted them.

Sons of Horus - Iron Warriors, White Scars, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion

Strange that the Emperor's Children and Night Lords don't get along, considering Fulgrim supposedly helped tutor Curze...

My opinion would be:

Iron Warriors - Imperial Fists
Sons of Horus - Blood Angels
Emperors Children - Iron Hands
Night Lords - Dark Angels
Word Bearers - Ultramarines
Thousand Sons - Space Wolves

And the less 'natural' fits:
Death Guard - Salamanders
Alpha Legion - Raven Guard
World Eaters - White Scars (or could swap Scars for Blood Angels)

My justification for the last three being the events of Deliverance Lost for the Alpha Legion (who's main hatred should/would be the Ultramarines), and that the Salamanders are humane/protect life, whilst the Death destroy it or 'protect' it under the notion of nurgle/undeath (but Vulkan Lives may help with the Sallies here).

It's reasonable to presume the Scars and World Eaters will fight it out on Terra, whilst both Legions enjoy war and seek freedom, but in very different ways. The Scars may feel particularly betrayed by Horus, who was close to the Khan and split the White Scars somewhat, and the Sons of Horus and Scars would also fight at least a bit on Terra. The World Eaters natural enemies should/would otherwise be the Space Wolves and Ultramarines IMHO, but they (and Angron and Sanguinius) had a lot of competition with one-another, as well as their links to Khorne and the comments about Sanguinius and Angron potentially being the 'ardest Primarchs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sweet looking Abaddon model!

 Malkira wrote:
This is from the HH: Betrayal allies matrix. The following will not ally with the other outside of the Warmaster's Command (Apoc Rules), so I equate this to hatred.

Emperor's Children -> Iron Hands, Night Lords
Iron Warriors -> Imperial Fists
Night Lords -> Dark Angels, Emperor's Children, Imperial Fists
World Eaters -> Ultramarines, Alpha Legion
Death Guard -> Thousand Sons
Thousand Sons -> Space Wolves, Death Guard
Alpha Legion -> World Eaters

On an interesting note, the Sons of Horus legion didn't hate anyone, but distrusted them.

Sons of Horus - Iron Warriors, White Scars, Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion

Interestling to note how more of the traitor legions don't get along with each other then compared to who would become their loyalist counter part.

 Just Dave wrote:
Strange that the Emperor's Children and Night Lords don't get along, considering Fulgrim supposedly helped tutor Curze...

My opinion would be:

Iron Warriors - Imperial Fists
Sons of Horus - Blood Angels
Emperors Children - Iron Hands
Night Lords - Dark Angels
Word Bearers - Ultramarines
Thousand Sons - Space Wolves

And the less 'natural' fits:
Death Guard - Salamanders
Alpha Legion - Raven Guard
World Eaters - White Scars (or could swap Scars for Blood Angels)

My justification for the last three being the events of Deliverance Lost for the Alpha Legion (who's main hatred should/would be the Ultramarines), and that the Salamanders are humane/protect life, whilst the Death destroy it or 'protect' it under the notion of nurgle/undeath (but Vulkan Lives may help with the Sallies here).

It's reasonable to presume the Scars and World Eaters will fight it out on Terra, whilst both Legions enjoy war and seek freedom, but in very different ways. The Scars may feel particularly betrayed by Horus, who was close to the Khan and split the White Scars somewhat, and the Sons of Horus and Scars would also fight at least a bit on Terra. The World Eaters natural enemies should/would otherwise be the Space Wolves and Ultramarines IMHO, but they (and Angron and Sanguinius) had a lot of competition with one-another, as well as their links to Khorne and the comments about Sanguinius and Angron potentially being the 'ardest Primarchs.

Yeah you see the problem I'm running into now. Out side of the obvious ones I'm left with reasons why like 3 of the Legions would hate the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, but not so solid reasons why anyone cares at all about the Iron Hands or Raven Guard.

 Just Dave wrote:
Strange that the Emperor's Children and Night Lords don't get along, considering Fulgrim supposedly helped tutor Curze...

My opinion would be:

Iron Warriors - Imperial Fists
Sons of Horus - Blood Angels
Emperors Children - Iron Hands
Night Lords - Dark Angels
Word Bearers - Ultramarines
Thousand Sons - Space Wolves

And the less 'natural' fits:
Death Guard - Salamanders
Alpha Legion - Raven Guard
World Eaters - White Scars (or could swap Scars for Blood Angels)

My justification for the last three being the events of Deliverance Lost for the Alpha Legion (who's main hatred should/would be the Ultramarines), and that the Salamanders are humane/protect life, whilst the Death destroy it or 'protect' it under the notion of nurgle/undeath (but Vulkan Lives may help with the Sallies here).

It's reasonable to presume the Scars and World Eaters will fight it out on Terra, whilst both Legions enjoy war and seek freedom, but in very different ways. The Scars may feel particularly betrayed by Horus, who was close to the Khan and split the White Scars somewhat, and the Sons of Horus and Scars would also fight at least a bit on Terra. The World Eaters natural enemies should/would otherwise be the Space Wolves and Ultramarines IMHO, but they (and Angron and Sanguinius) had a lot of competition with one-another, as well as their links to Khorne and the comments about Sanguinius and Angron potentially being the 'ardest Primarchs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sweet looking Abaddon model!

They don't get on because curze killed some of the Phoenicians princesses, I mean sons

I find it slightly strange that World Eaters don't hate Thousand Sons in the Allies Matrix, but admittingly tthat'd be a bit redundant with he Space Wolves' relation with Thousand Sons being there already. Still, I thought the World Eaters disliked psykers even before the fall.

Shouldn't Word Bearers hate Ultramarines?

TiamatRoar wrote:
I find it slightly strange that World Eaters don't hate Thousand Sons in the Allies Matrix, but admittingly tthat'd be a bit redundant with he Space Wolves' relation with Thousand Sons being there already. Still, I thought the World Eaters disliked psykers even before the fall.

Shouldn't Word Bearers hate Ultramarines?

Lorgar and Magnus were best buds. They were like Horus and Sanguinius or Lorgar and Ferrus Manus before the Heresy.

TiamatRoar wrote:I find it slightly strange that World Eaters don't hate Thousand Sons in the Allies Matrix, but admittingly tthat'd be a bit redundant with he Space Wolves' relation with Thousand Sons being there already. Still, I thought the World Eaters disliked psykers even before the fall.

The World Eaters weren't particularly anti-psyker, although they were fairly marginalised within the Legion (particularly by Angron; aggravates butchers nails). Mortarion, Russ, Dorn and Corax were the main proponents for the sanctioning of Nikaea and so probably less fond of the Thousand Sons than the World Eaters were.

Shouldn't Word Bearers hate Ultramarines?

Depends at what point in the timeline the allies matrix is for I guess...?

Maverike_prime wrote:Yeah you see the problem I'm running into now. Out side of the obvious ones I'm left with reasons why like 3 of the Legions would hate the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, but not so solid reasons why anyone cares at all about the Iron Hands or Raven Guard.

I'm not surprised: I conceptualised the World Eaters, Word Bearers, Night Lords and Alpha Legion all as 'haters' of the Ultramarines.

The Iron Hands would have a particular dislike towards the Emperor's Children for fairly obvious reasons that occurred during the HH timeline.

The Raven Guard are harder, but I'd imagine they'd particularly dislike the Alpha Legion after 'Deliverance Lost', the Sons of Horus because of the heresy in general and Horus' conflict with Corax, and the Night Lords because Curze and Corax often seemed at odds and duelled on Istvaan.

Ceann Fine wrote:They don't get on because curze killed some of the Phoenicians princesses, I mean sons

Ooooh yeah, forgot about Curze beating up some of the Emperor's Children as well as Dorn.

VensersRevenge wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
I find it slightly strange that World Eaters don't hate Thousand Sons in the Allies Matrix, but admittingly tthat'd be a bit redundant with he Space Wolves' relation with Thousand Sons being there already. Still, I thought the World Eaters disliked psykers even before the fall.

Shouldn't Word Bearers hate Ultramarines?

Lorgar and Magnus were best buds. They were like Horus and Sanguinius or Lorgar and Ferrus Manus before the Heresy.

My first sentence said World Eaters, not Word Bearers. It's okay though. I make that mistake too (in fact, after proofreading, I had to go back and change "Word Bearers" to "World Eaters" when composing that post


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Dave wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:I find it slightly strange that World Eaters don't hate Thousand Sons in the Allies Matrix, but admittingly tthat'd be a bit redundant with he Space Wolves' relation with Thousand Sons being there already. Still, I thought the World Eaters disliked psykers even before the fall.

The World Eaters weren't particularly anti-psyker, although they were fairly marginalised within the Legion (particularly by Angron; aggravates butchers nails). Mortarion, Russ, Dorn and Corax were the main proponents for the sanctioning of Nikaea and so probably less fond of the Thousand Sons than the World Eaters were.

Shouldn't Word Bearers hate Ultramarines?

Depends at what point in the timeline the allies matrix is for I guess...?

I thought the Ultramarines destroying the Word Bearer's city happened kinda early-ish in the timeline (relatively speaking). Certainly earlier than when Fulgrim and Merrus came to blows (unless Iron Hands and Emp Children hated each other even before then despite their primarchs being best buds).

Yeah, I suspected the allies matrix was set for quite late too. Monarchia was about 50 years before the heresy as I recall, with the Great Crusade itself lasting about 200 years, so it wasn't exactly late: definitely before Fulgrim and Ferrus, or Curze and Dorn fighting at least.

TiamatRoar wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
I find it slightly strange that World Eaters don't hate Thousand Sons in the Allies Matrix, but admittingly tthat'd be a bit redundant with he Space Wolves' relation with Thousand Sons being there already. Still, I thought the World Eaters disliked psykers even before the fall.

Shouldn't Word Bearers hate Ultramarines?

Lorgar and Magnus were best buds. They were like Horus and Sanguinius or Lorgar and Ferrus Manus before the Heresy.

My first sentence said World Eaters, not Word Bearers. It's okay though. I make that mistake too (in fact, after proofreading, I had to go back and change "Word Bearers" to "World Eaters" when composing that post

Ok sorry then, I didn't notice somehow.

color me curious, but what would the Emp's children leader do with his enemy? O.o;

 Just Dave wrote:
Ooooh yeah, forgot about Curze beating up some of the Emperor's Children as well as Dorn.

More than that, keep in mind that Fulgrim, the most two-faced of the Primarchs, also brought something Curze told him in confidence (He felt that he could trust Fulgrim because, as you said, he tutored him), and Fulgrim took that information right to Dorn, and probably smugly grinned like a douchebag while he relayed it.

Why does every legion necessarily need an equal and opposite?

Why can't some loyalist legions just hate all chaos, and vice versa?

I think you have pretty much got your answers in the posts above, but I will say when you have made this, post some pics!

I for one wanna see it!

 Ailaros wrote:
Why does every legion necessarily need an equal and opposite?

Why can't some loyalist legions just hate all chaos, and vice versa?

I'm pretty sure all loyalist legions hate chaos.

The thread's not really about a legion's equal and opposite, but which traitor legion they'd likely hate above others.

This thread started to discuss opposites, and I'm with you: every legion doesn't need them and they can be fairly arbitrarily designated.

Internally to the Traitor Legions, the rivalries of the Chaos Gods also drives a lot of their enmity. Khorne and Slaanesh hate one another, as do Tzeentch and Nurgle. Time ago, you could not even ally these factions, unless you wanted to deal with your own army turning on itself.

If you're going with legions only, then you can't really go with Black Templars...they're an Imperial Fists successor. :(

Otherwise, I would suggest a particularly bloodthirsty chapter like Blood Angels or Flesh Tearers for the World Eaters...the red shouldn't double up with the Sanguinary Guard you already have planned. Night Lords may see Raven Guard as a suitably worthy target seeing as they can employ similar tactics. And lastly, the Imperial Fists should definitely be for Iron Warriors as their mutual enmity hasn't been diminished over time at all.

Blood Angels obviously hate Black Legion with a particular fervour, but the feeling isn't especially mutual (beyond the usual hatred for Loyalists). If the Black Legion had any special enmity it'd be towards the Emperors Children for failing to fight in the Heresy and the subsequent cloning of Horus.

For Curtze and the Night lords, don't forget the Thramas Crusade and the battle on Tsagualsa where Lion El'Johnson pulps Curtze and destroys a large part of his fleet. The alpha legion could also have the White scars as they where sent to stall the legion and prevent them from getting to Terra on time after Istvan IV.

My opinion would be:

Iron Warriors - Imperial Fists
Emperors Children - Iron Hands
Word Bearers - Ultramarines
Thousand Sons - Space Wolves

And the less 'natural' fits:
Night Lords - Dark Angels
Sons of Horus - Blood Angels
Death Guard - Salamanders, Grey Knights
Alpha Legion - Raven Guard
World Eaters - White Scar, Grey Knights

Really I would go for custom chapters for a good many of them. Raven Guard, Salamanders and Dark Angels arent going to be so obvious. Perhaps Dark Angels but I would go for more interesting color schemes.

Yeah you see the problem I'm running into now. Out side of the obvious ones I'm left with reasons why like 3 of the Legions would hate the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, but not so solid reasons why anyone cares at all about the Iron Hands or Raven Guard.

The Iron Hands probably hate the Emperors Children and from what I've read in Angel Exterminatus the Emperors Children seem to enjoy fighting the Iron Hands.

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

Yeah you see the problem I'm running into now. Out side of the obvious ones I'm left with reasons why like 3 of the Legions would hate the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, but not so solid reasons why anyone cares at all about the Iron Hands or Raven Guard.

The Iron Hands probably hate the Emperors Children and from what I've read in Angel Exterminatus the Emperors Children seem to enjoy fighting the Iron Hands.

That may be so. But for this we are talking about the CSM legions hatred. If the OP was making a scene of each loyalist legion bringing a traitor to justice then i would agree.

Of course then the Dark Angels would probably be bringing a Dark Angel...

Exergy wrote:My opinion would be:

Iron Warriors - Imperial Fists
Emperors Children - Iron Hands
Word Bearers - Ultramarines
Thousand Sons - Space Wolves

And the less 'natural' fits:
Night Lords - Dark Angels
Sons of Horus - Blood Angels
Death Guard - Salamanders, Grey Knights
Alpha Legion - Raven Guard
World Eaters - White Scar, Grey Knights

Really I would go for custom chapters for a good many of them. Raven Guard, Salamanders and Dark Angels arent going to be so obvious. Perhaps Dark Angels but I would go for more interesting color schemes.

Your opinion?

gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:

Yeah you see the problem I'm running into now. Out side of the obvious ones I'm left with reasons why like 3 of the Legions would hate the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, but not so solid reasons why anyone cares at all about the Iron Hands or Raven Guard.

The Iron Hands probably hate the Emperors Children and from what I've read in Angel Exterminatus the Emperors Children seem to enjoy fighting the Iron Hands.

If you've read Fulgrim, you'll know the reasoning behind this.

Raven Guard -> Death Guard
Destroyed Shadow of Emperor at Istvaan V
Ultramarines -> Word Bearers
Battle of Calth
Iron Hands -> Emperors Children
Primarch Battle
Blood Angels -> Sons of Horus
Primarch Battle
Imperial Fist -> Iron Warriors
"Iron Cage" incident
Space Wolves -> Thousand Son
Emperor ordering them to stop there psychic using
White Scars -> Alpha Legion
Attacked his brother Leman Russ and later lead the hunt for voldorius (Alpha Legion leader)
Dark Angels -> Night Lords
Fought a lot on the Easteen fringes
Salamanders -> World Eaters
Involved in the Istvaan III (kinda unnatural fit)

I know it seems why good would attack bad but if you think about it thats why they would have there body more likely. Can't wait to see your project.

wouldnt the Raven Guard hate Alpha Legion?

Alpha Legion infiltrated the Raven Guard at Istvaan III and sewed confusion and killed thousands of Raven Guard from behind. They then corrupted the Raven Guard geneseed to the point that when Corax tried to regrow his legion he created abominations that he had to put down personally.

Due to the way Deliverance Lost ended, it seemed that the Ravens knew they ha been infiltrated, but not by whom. And it seems very clear that they had no idea that the genetic material had been contaminated. The Ravens thought that some genetic problems had occurred when they tried to scale up Astartes production . This is reinforced by the fact that Corax felt personally responsible for the monsters he created and even let them serve in the legion for a time(before administering the Emperor's peace).

Unless The Raven discovered the Alpha in some fluff since Deliverance Lost, aren't the Ravens still oblivious?

The Raven Guard should hate the Alpha, but ignorance is bliss...