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Sometimes in the rush to declare something as "revolutionizing X" people forget the reasons why the old system worked the way it did. "Give all the money to someone up front without any binding commitment to produce" has always felt a lot like "earnings don't matter in the new economy" circa 1999.
Which is not to say that crowdfunding isn't going to stick around. But CLEARLY we were going to see some spectacular failures -- some of them scams. Scammers go where the easy money is, and IMO too many KS supporters were/are behaving irrationally with their money. After enough people get burned, we'll probably see crowdfunding become something more rational and more regulated.
Rented Tritium wrote: What kickstarter "is" is the renaissance art sponsor system brought back to life. If the Medecis sponsored someone and they didn't paint, they were out of luck, but that painter's career was over too.
That's what I thought, too. But its not. The Medicis didn't live in the internet age, where everything can be vaporware. They could and did ensure their artists were physically present in the city. They offered continuing patronage for good work, and required actual examples of work to demonstrate ability of the artist.
Kickstarter is not that in any way, shape or form. Kickstarter relies on one pretty powerpoint / video presentation, and all money is provided up front to the creator.
If the Medicis sponsored someone, who lived on their dime, but who never delivered... well, that artist would have to go find real work when his stipend was pulled. Or the Medicis could kneecap him. And the Medicis could talk to all the other rich families to ensure the scammer didn't pull it on anyone else.
My whole point is that backers can't do any of that for a flaky artist in the kickstarter system. There are ZERO repercussions for someone to do what this guy did.
All a scammer has to do on kickstarter is hide behind other names. Or do a one-and-done. Doesn't help those backers who got taken.
edit to add - The difference, fundamentally, in the patronage system the patron holds all the power and the money. With kickstarter, the creator gets all the money and holds all the power of what to do with it. That is a broken system.
There is an internet equivalent for each thing you've mentioned here. It's not magically different just because we can communicate efficiently.
Kickstarter is not that in any way, shape or form. Kickstarter relies on one pretty powerpoint / video presentation, and all money is provided up front to the creator.
That is not entirely fair. The Kickstarters I have backed have all shown their work before the campaign ended. The product may not exist yet, but the work towards it exists, and in most cases was substantial.
But at the end of the day, you're taking a gamble with Kickstarter, Hell, you're not really even taking a gamble. All you are doing is giving someone money with only one string attached: the campaign must reach its funding goal. That's it. There's no guarantees. People who fund a project should not, in my opinion, expect anything. If the project is successful and if you get your promised rewards, that's a bonus.
Backing a Kickstarter project is like loaning cash to a friend. Your recourse is narrow and you need to use your best judgment before handing over any money because you may never see it, or your friend, again. Only the "friend" is in many cases a complete stranger. You go ahead and give your money to some guy off of the street if you want to, but if you do, don't cry when he disappears with it.
With Kickstarter, you aren't buying anything. You aren't investing in anything. There's no contract. There's no fiduciary duty. There's no regulation. The only question is whether there should be regulation, and I'm not terribly sure where I stand on that.
Buying a product is one thing. You, the seller of said good or service, tell me that I will be getting X in exchange for a given amount of legal tender. You are now responsible for giving me what you said I was getting. With crowdfunding, the something doesn't exist. How can you possibly say what I will get when it doesn't exist? I've been screwed more badly by crappy contractors who can't manage to stay within a budget. What recourse did I have then? An estimate is exactly that. I knew that going in. I knew there could be problems. I knew it could wind up costing more money. And it is my responsibility to use good judgment when hiring someone. Why do you think Angie's List exists?
The only thing that I can see being within the reasonable scope of regulation is the promise to do X with the funds. You give me money, and I will be doing X with that money. If you don't do X, there's your fraud. But if you do X and it doesn't work out, well that just sucks doesn't it? You give me money, and I will invest in these stocks for you. If you don't do that, you betcha you are in trouble. But if you do it and it doesn't work out, well that just sucks doesn't it?
At some point people have to accept a certain amount of personal responsibility.
See that Red Box Games banner down there? I back every Red Box Games Kickstarter because I know Tre, I trust Tre, I believe in his art and his business, and I want it to be successful. That's the first, foremost, and virtually only reason I do it. And when Tre does a project, he shows you what he is doing. He shows you, as much as is possible, exactly what you are going to get at the end. His first Kickstarter suffered from an abundance of production problems. But it was a brand new product in a brand new material. It was an unknown, and were it not Tre Manor behind the wheel, I wouldn't have been surprised if I never got anything, or if what I got was barely usable crap. That's the way it is with Kickstarter. You just don't know, and you have no guarantees. The only guarantee I had was Tre. That was good enough for me, but some guy I don't know who only has a flashy power point...Hell no.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/07/25 21:26:42
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
Well, it didn't take long to reach the blame the victim stage!
"When your only tools are duct tape and a shovel, all of life's problems start to look the same!" - kronk
"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Darth Helmet
"History...is, indeed, little more than the register of the crimes, follies, and misfortune of mankind" - Edward Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
weeble1000 wrote: With crowdfunding, the something doesn't exist. How can you possibly say what I will get when it doesn't exist?
Funny, that's basically the exact same thing that happens when I pre-order a game before it has 'gone gold'. The difference is that I'm dealing with a distributor (in most but not all cases) rather than the developers directly, but that line seems like the closest to the consumer relationship I'm familiar with, and is how a good many gaming projects are running these days anyway.
Note: I am NOT saying that this is exactly what is going on, but if we need to begin to look at how this works and whom is interacting with whom and even introduce legislation to protect consumer rights regarding the matter, it might be a starting point.
At some point people have to accept a certain amount of personal responsibility.
I agree, but referring almost strictly to the project teams themselves. I am not an investor, I'm not literally pre-ordering, I'm not donating to charity, but I'm also not seeing anything more than the project is willing to share. Nobody who contributes is making a perfectly informed choice, we are handing over a few (or a lot of) dollars based on the info presented, and for all we know that's an elaborate smoke and mirrors campaign.
Should people be savvy consumers? Abso-frikkin-lutely. Should people closely scrutinize the CV, provided materials and promises of each campaign, doubly so for those they intend to commit large sums of money to? No question. But as noted by others, this is coming across as victim blaming, which is never productive. Hopefully it inspires an extra level of scrutiny to projects, but there will always be those that slip through the cracks.
It's funny, but this all is one reason why 4 of the 5 projects I've backed for $70 to hundreds of dollars are tied to established companies. Even though many bemoan the use of the system by those who "don't need it", it does give some measure of recourse, even if it's just the risk such bad press might carry to their reputation, profitability of their other product lines and any future ventures they might try to undertake.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/25 22:20:23
Gymnogyps wrote: Well, it didn't take long to reach the blame the victim stage!
It is our spec-i-al-i-ty.
Weird? I always thought we started with Blame the victim then on to irreverence, then to we should all be grateful that the USA saved all our asses? [sic]
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
Gymnogyps wrote: Well, it didn't take long to reach the blame the victim stage!
It is our spec-i-al-i-ty.
Weird? I always thought we started with Blame the victim then on to irreverence, then to we should all be grateful that the USA saved all our asses? [sic]
I'm not sure the order is important, we'll have to start a thread in Nuts and Bolts to clarify, and you should be grateful or you'd all be speaking Albanian, or Swahili, or whatever it was the Germans spoke when they bombed Pearl Harbor.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Gymnogyps wrote: Well, it didn't take long to reach the blame the victim stage!
It is our spec-i-al-i-ty.
Weird? I always thought we started with Blame the victim then on to irreverence, then to we should all be grateful that the USA saved all our asses? [sic]
I'm not sure the order is important, we'll have to start a thread in Nuts and Bolts to clarify, and you should be grateful or you'd all be speaking Albanian, or Swahili, or whatever it was the Germans spoke when they bombed Pearl Harbor.
My head asplode.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
PhantomViper wrote: Maybe that altruistic poster should have posted his previous experiences with this person BEFORE the KS was over?
KS is largely based on confidence. Him knowing that the owner of the KS had a shady background and despite that not only allowed him to deceive a few thousand people but also got deceived himself AGAIN is a bit ridiculous...
Well, to be fair, having one failed $20,000 project for a computer game doesn't really mean a shady past. To be honest, I think it'd be kind of bad form if someone had a kickstarter up and running and some random from his past starting making noise about a small project that went south years before then, especially when that person wasn't even one of the investors.
And the fact that the person who posted the story about his previous failure invested in this project shows he certainly didn't think it was something that was likely to happen a second time.
Now, once the guy has screwed up again in a similar but more spectacular way, well then the guy has form and people need to be informed so they can stay away from the guy.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Gymnogyps, or anyone else who was a backer, please take these steps to nail the guy. The more backers who do so, the more likely the state law enforcement will take action:
I just spoke with the Oregon State Attorney's Office, specifically the Consumer Fraud Division, and they said that we can (individually) report this situation for further investigation and potentially prosecution. You need to go to https://justice.oregon.gov/forms/consumer_complaint.asp and click the "file a complaint online" button (orange bar on right side of screen). Additionally you can call them directly, if you need. The toll-free number to their Consumer Fraud Hotline is 877-877-9392. Based on how many of us report this issue will determine the extent of how they respond. Given there are over 1,200 backers who were victims of fraud, and the majority (?) feel it's worthwhile that this situation be handled by (or at last reported to) the State Attorney's office, then there is a potential of hundreds of claims going to their office. At a minimum, that should assure that Erik Chevalier (and his "company" The Forking Path) are on record as taking over $122k, providing false information about what was happening with those funds, and then simply "cancelling" the project with no guarantee of refunds. (That's Fraud, black and white). Please share this information with other backers as you see fit.
If you don't think it was intentional, read this comment again:
Spoiler:
Mighty Rabbit Studios about 22 hours ago
Erik, I want to make it very clear that I have absolutely nothing against you as a person. You're still one of the coolest guys I've worked with, and I standby my assessment that you're a killer salesman (and the success of your fundraising efforts proves that much) - but I believe your backers have a right to know that this isn't the first time this has happened.
Erik was a part of Joystick Labs - an independent game development incubator in Durham, NC - which formed five companies (mine included). Erik formed a company called Inari, Inc. and got $20,000 in seed funding to build a social pinball game. By the end of six months, the money was gone and there was nothing to show for it. Erik's investors for Inari got completely burned. From what we saw, most of the money went towards buying stuff on Amazon.
I backed this project with the hopes that Joystick Labs was just a learning experience, getting a board game printed seemed substantially easier than getting a video game made. I'm guessing that was a false assumption. Thankfully, I only backed at the T-Shirt level - I'm fine writing off a $25 loss. I really feel bad for the hundreds of backers who pledged $75 or more. I really hope you can get their money back, Erik.
Frazzled wrote: I am very very sick of the kickstarter stuff. I'd like to start a kickstarter to form a posse of clowns, potentially insane, to hunt down other kickstarters.
Frazzled wrote: I am very very sick of the kickstarter stuff. I'd like to start a kickstarter to form a posse of clowns, potentially insane, to hunt down other kickstarters.
lol'd
I hope that was not intentional.
See if you knew me you would know that I never ever joke. Ever.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Also, see here for an outright scam that, coincidentally, was about to raise just over 120K before Kickstarter pulled the plug and cancelled it right before it went final. This was just last month!
People need to start distinguishing between "campaigns aren't guaranteed preorders" and outright scams. There is a stark difference, and a lot of it is about intent.
Given the game maker's history, and lack of producing anything that the money was spent on with 122K to burn through, the kickstarter of this thread falls firmly in the "scam" category.
I believe the Oregon police will see it this way, too, and take action against the fraudster. Will be interesting to see, and possibly a template for future criminals using the site in bad faith.
So if you want to get a nice down payment on a house all you have to do is set up a fake game company on kickstarter? This will not end well for kickstarter.
Yep, but that was the tricky thing here- the game creators are well known, but the KS was through a publisher, who is not. A distinction I'll be watching out for... but this one was a lot harder to see coming because of that.
generalgrog wrote: So if you want to get a nice down payment on a house all you have to do is set up a fake game company on kickstarter? This will not end well for kickstarter.
GG
Yes. Or you can do as our guy, who allegedly
- quit his day job
- moved from California to Oregon
- bought additional licenses for other games for his fledgling company
- spoke to an industry group about how to run a "successful" kickstarter, highlighting how he got nearly 4x the goal amount. "Success" is about funding, not delivering the goal, after all.
- rented a $2,500 per month house to use as the business address
- went to business school for a year and failed, not completing the degree
- bought a new computer
- started another company, for movie production, and made a short film
There may be more but that is what has been discussed in the comments, all alleged. Now evidently the web is being scrubbed of all these things. Pages getting deleted.
Meanwhile, below is the timeline of updates to backers. How many others of you have backed kickstarters that provide these sorts of vague updates? Most of the projects I've backed provide updates just like these...
Keep in mind, all throughout, backers were commenting about the apparent discrepancies, such as where are the T-shirts, the art prints, stickers, etc; why is our project getting pushed after Chinese New Year due to workloads? They should do first come, first served... but we had no way to require more info. We can't audit the actual contracts because we have no right to do so, for example.
(another backer put this together and it really shows how this guy played everyone)
"Just as a timeline:
======================================
May 2012
The Doom That Came to Atlantic City begins it's Kickstarter, pitched as a Lovecraftian twist on a classic boardgame, created by Keith Baker & Lee Moyer with original sculpts from Paul Komoda. (There is no mention of an intent to be used as a platform to launch a new game company.)
June 2012
Project is successfully funded at 350% of minimum goal, reaching stretch goals that added new cards and wooden game tokens to each game (to supplement new additional gameplay mechanics). Estimated delivery is November 2012.
August 2012
"It’s taken a bit longer to get everything off to the printer than we expected. The final bits are nearly all together, meaning we are still on schedule for a pre-Christmas release. I'll notify everyone if we run into any delays... it may take a bit longer for the pewter figurines to be produced, so they will be shipped out at a later date than the rest of your rewards. The plastic figurines in the base game are progressing along fine, it is only the pewter sets that will be delayed."
October 2012
"We've been informed that should we continue to promote the game we will come under legal fire. So we've gone over all the pieces and redesigned nearly all visual elements, keeping the wonderfully detailed art of Lee Moyer and Paul Komoda intact, but changing colors, layout, street names, card designs and various other bits. The game mechanics remain the same, though a similar purge was done to the text of the rule book, stripping out any possibly incriminating parody quips.
“This process has set us back quite a bit on our production schedule, jeopardizing our ability to get the game to you wonderful people in time for the holidays.”
(also “We've begun work on licensing games from designers whom you know and appreciate. We're not quite ready to announce what's on the roster, but we're certain you'll enjoy it.")
November 2012
"After many long conversations with lawyers I've decided that we’re finally moving along with a small printing of the game and all the rewards... I'm just as tired of waiting on progress as everyone else here and want to see this game released in the near future."
December 2012
"Just a short note to inform you that due to the legal obstacles, redesign and working through some things with various printers, the game is now scheduled for a Q1 2013 release. Expect the game and other rewards to ship in early 2013. The standalone pewter miniatures will follow shortly after as we've finally found someone who can make them right."
February 2013
"I strive to let you know everything as soon as we can. Sometimes we have to talk them over and find a solution before announcing, but I still tell you as soon as possible.
“There's been a schedule change. [Our printer] had to push us back in the queue... the realistic estimate is that most games take a year to be produced and we're basically meeting that right on.
“Once the factory returns from their Chinese New Year break on the 20th of this month they will dive into full production of The Doom that Came to Atlantic City. This makes for a mid-June release. There is a possibility that it could come up to a month sooner.
“I'm working closely with several people at the printing company to avoid any other possible issues during production. Hopefully this is the final delay."
March 2013
"For most of February our printing facility was closed. Since they reopened we've been working closely on last minute digital file adjustments before sending them to the machines. The master sculpts for the miniatures are in the plastic shop being prepped for molding. All things are on schedule.
“Due to the fact that we only have one master set of the sculptures and they are quite fragile they are being used for the plastic molds first. Once those have been cast we’ll repair the sculpts or make replacements from the plastic replicas and then deliver those to the pewter manufacturer. This means that the pewter miniatures will come out after the base game, but will be delivered as soon as possible."
April 2013
"Wanted to let you know that no news is good news as we're still on the same schedule, aiming for that June release."
May 2013
"Tonight I spoke with our printers... Schedules have slipped a bit, again, but we're back in contact and working on bringing the game to you well before the holidays.
“Not quite the June release I'd really hoped to provide, we're now looking at Q3. All rewards should be shipped together, including games, t-shirts, stickers and art prints. Pewter minis may still take longer, and may thus be shipped separately."
June 2013
"The project is moving along but there isn't any news beyond our last update to add. Still looking at a Q3 release."
July 2013
"The project is over, the game is canceled." (also: "From the beginning the intention was to launch a new board game company with the Kickstarted funds, with The Doom that Came to Atlantic City as only our first of hopefully many projects. Everyone involved agreed on this.")"
None of this was actually done. That is the problem. While the kickstarter was still "on", all we have, as backers, is the words in the updates. There is NO WAY to verify it is actually being done.
"When your only tools are duct tape and a shovel, all of life's problems start to look the same!" - kronk
"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Darth Helmet
"History...is, indeed, little more than the register of the crimes, follies, and misfortune of mankind" - Edward Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
I"m not sick of kick starter.... I'm sick of journeys. Every project has their founders trying to trick you into believing that you aren't just backing them financially, oh no - you are joining them on a journey. Then you have these sheep posting in the comments how glad they are to be able to join the startup on their journey.
Don't kid yourself, I don't thank GW for letting me in on the journey when I place an order lol.
generalgrog wrote: So if you want to get a nice down payment on a house all you have to do is set up a fake game company on kickstarter? This will not end well for kickstarter.
GG
Yes. Or you can do as our guy, who allegedly
- quit his day job - moved from California to Oregon - bought additional licenses for other games for his fledgling company - spoke to an industry group about how to run a "successful" kickstarter, highlighting how he got nearly 4x the goal amount. "Success" is about funding, not delivering the goal, after all. - rented a $2,500 per month house to use as the business address - went to business school for a year and failed, not completing the degree - bought a new computer - started another company, for movie production, and made a short film
There may be more but that is what has been discussed in the comments, all alleged. Now evidently the web is being scrubbed of all these things. Pages getting deleted.
Meanwhile, below is the timeline of updates to backers. How many others of you have backed kickstarters that provide these sorts of vague updates? Most of the projects I've backed provide updates just like these...
Keep in mind, all throughout, backers were commenting about the apparent discrepancies, such as where are the T-shirts, the art prints, stickers, etc; why is our project getting pushed after Chinese New Year due to workloads? They should do first come, first served... but we had no way to require more info. We can't audit the actual contracts because we have no right to do so, for example.
(another backer put this together and it really shows how this guy played everyone)
"Just as a timeline:
======================================
May 2012 The Doom That Came to Atlantic City begins it's Kickstarter, pitched as a Lovecraftian twist on a classic boardgame, created by Keith Baker & Lee Moyer with original sculpts from Paul Komoda. (There is no mention of an intent to be used as a platform to launch a new game company.)
June 2012 Project is successfully funded at 350% of minimum goal, reaching stretch goals that added new cards and wooden game tokens to each game (to supplement new additional gameplay mechanics). Estimated delivery is November 2012.
August 2012 "It’s taken a bit longer to get everything off to the printer than we expected. The final bits are nearly all together, meaning we are still on schedule for a pre-Christmas release. I'll notify everyone if we run into any delays... it may take a bit longer for the pewter figurines to be produced, so they will be shipped out at a later date than the rest of your rewards. The plastic figurines in the base game are progressing along fine, it is only the pewter sets that will be delayed."
October 2012 "We've been informed that should we continue to promote the game we will come under legal fire. So we've gone over all the pieces and redesigned nearly all visual elements, keeping the wonderfully detailed art of Lee Moyer and Paul Komoda intact, but changing colors, layout, street names, card designs and various other bits. The game mechanics remain the same, though a similar purge was done to the text of the rule book, stripping out any possibly incriminating parody quips.
“This process has set us back quite a bit on our production schedule, jeopardizing our ability to get the game to you wonderful people in time for the holidays.”
(also “We've begun work on licensing games from designers whom you know and appreciate. We're not quite ready to announce what's on the roster, but we're certain you'll enjoy it.")
November 2012 "After many long conversations with lawyers I've decided that we’re finally moving along with a small printing of the game and all the rewards... I'm just as tired of waiting on progress as everyone else here and want to see this game released in the near future."
December 2012 "Just a short note to inform you that due to the legal obstacles, redesign and working through some things with various printers, the game is now scheduled for a Q1 2013 release. Expect the game and other rewards to ship in early 2013. The standalone pewter miniatures will follow shortly after as we've finally found someone who can make them right."
February 2013 "I strive to let you know everything as soon as we can. Sometimes we have to talk them over and find a solution before announcing, but I still tell you as soon as possible.
“There's been a schedule change. [Our printer] had to push us back in the queue... the realistic estimate is that most games take a year to be produced and we're basically meeting that right on.
“Once the factory returns from their Chinese New Year break on the 20th of this month they will dive into full production of The Doom that Came to Atlantic City. This makes for a mid-June release. There is a possibility that it could come up to a month sooner.
“I'm working closely with several people at the printing company to avoid any other possible issues during production. Hopefully this is the final delay."
March 2013 "For most of February our printing facility was closed. Since they reopened we've been working closely on last minute digital file adjustments before sending them to the machines. The master sculpts for the miniatures are in the plastic shop being prepped for molding. All things are on schedule.
“Due to the fact that we only have one master set of the sculptures and they are quite fragile they are being used for the plastic molds first. Once those have been cast we’ll repair the sculpts or make replacements from the plastic replicas and then deliver those to the pewter manufacturer. This means that the pewter miniatures will come out after the base game, but will be delivered as soon as possible."
April 2013 "Wanted to let you know that no news is good news as we're still on the same schedule, aiming for that June release."
May 2013 "Tonight I spoke with our printers... Schedules have slipped a bit, again, but we're back in contact and working on bringing the game to you well before the holidays.
“Not quite the June release I'd really hoped to provide, we're now looking at Q3. All rewards should be shipped together, including games, t-shirts, stickers and art prints. Pewter minis may still take longer, and may thus be shipped separately."
June 2013 "The project is moving along but there isn't any news beyond our last update to add. Still looking at a Q3 release."
July 2013 "The project is over, the game is canceled." (also: "From the beginning the intention was to launch a new board game company with the Kickstarted funds, with The Doom that Came to Atlantic City as only our first of hopefully many projects. Everyone involved agreed on this.")"
None of this was actually done. That is the problem. While the kickstarter was still "on", all we have, as backers, is the words in the updates. There is NO WAY to verify it is actually being done.
That's pathetic - absolutely disgusting, this dude should really be ashamed of himself, but something tells me he isn't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/30 19:48:43
Apparently it's possible to get a credit card refund for kickstarter pledges. See the comments on Instacube, which raised 620K and not delivered.
Some quotes:
I was issued a refund by American Express. I would recommend anyone that has the desire to recoup their pledge to do so.
@valentia Calcedo call you credit card provider i did and i had to make what they call a cover letter explaining what happen and getting any proof. i just check not long ago and i was indeed refunded my $149.00 by my credit card provider
