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This was my response to the post on Spikey Bits:

"I decided that I didn't like being told I had to upgrade my Ferrari every 4 or 5 years, and that I had to pay ever more exorbitant prices for products that hadn't changed their design for decades, and took my money elsewhere.

And it's not just "fringe" customers on the edge being priced out; it's also market collectors who used to have every special Ferrari make and model out there, who have decided they don't like the way the market is heading, and the prices they are charging for it. I usually spend, on average, $200 to $250 per month on gaming related items (minis, books, paints, rules, etc.). None of that now goes to GW, our Ferrari stand-in. About 5 or 6 years ago, I would say at least half went to them; 10 years ago, over 90% would end up in GW pockets. I finally decided that I had had enough of their ridiculous pricing structures (bought the Tomb Kings book when it came out... 2 weeks later it went up $20 CAD in price. Really, GW?) and stopped collecting, sold off my older models and armies and have felt great since.

Now, I drive all sorts of makes and models of "cars," all with varying degrees of quality, but none of them make me feel like I'm getting ripped off when I get into them.

Of course, your mileage may vary... ;-)"

-Vilegrimm

Over the last 5 years I have not bought a single box of models from GW. I have bought new codices/army books to keep up on fluff but once they changed fantasy to where the game depended on large blocks of infantry and started charging more for fewer models I got out and 40k followed shortly after. I currently content myself with reading novels, creating characters/units and making fluff/models for said characters/units and that's pretty much through ordering from bits stores.

As someone with a growing family (married 2 years, baby due in october) I don't have the money to go out and spend 100$ on a single model nor a couple hundred just to have a full unit. So a 100$ worth of bits here and there which let me create my visions and indulge my conversion addiction works just fine.

 scarletsquig wrote:
I buy 100% Mantic, I play pretty much exactly the same games and have just as much fun as I did when I bought 100% GW, only now I'm paying less than a quarter of the price for it.

You are a fan of hard plastic kits, right? Check out the Eisenkern stormtroopers and the newer WGF plastics. They are cheaper than Mantic's offerings, in a better medium, and arguably are better quality sculpts and designs.

I love how this thread, on how the sky is falling, comes top on the new threads... along with lots of ones about the new Tau that everyone is buying.

I'm only buying the books for the armies I like. Any new releases will have to jump off the shelf and into my arms AND be priced reasonably for me to bite.

Paying over $20 for a single figure is just too much. I could afford it, but its just the principle of the thing.

I really don't like that article, GW are in no way the Ferrari of wargaming, they are the Ford.

GW is where most people enter the hobby, warhammer is the game that everyone plays, for a good long time it was the only game you could find opponents for.
That is changing now and they have competition so they are SAYING they are the Ferrari's of wargaming to make their shareholders feel better.

Thinking about what I've bought from GW since returning to the fold 3 years ago:

Lots of scenery (RoB, Imperial Sector & Stronghold) - bought just before the massive scenery hikes.
Most of the guard characters - Bought before price hikes and/or finecast treatment.

40K BRB on launch (pre-ordered through Maelstrom).

LE Dark Vengeance box on launch (and then sold BRB, subsequently sold all of the models for about the cost of the box).

So we'll say about £400 of new GW stuff in the last 3 years, mostly at discount.

In the same period of probably spent £300 on Empire Of the Dead stuff alone, £300 on Hail Caesar, £300 on Bolt Action, £400 on 2nd hand 40K stuff.

So I guess I'm just finding that with the competition, I've got less reason to buy from GW, and at the prices I'm likely to stick with the army I've already got (about 3K of Guard) and not expand much unless the new Codex introduces something I must have that isn't a giant based figure or flyer.

I work full time now and have higher income than I've had before in my life, but I don't buy GW. In part, the cost of everything has risen, but GW prices are just silly. I don't hate on GW, they just make me shake my head. Their aggressive approach to IP makes me angry because its damaging other companies and product lines. But GW can charge what they like, if they go belly up it's their fault. Sad but it isn't the creative hobby company I loved 20+ years ago, with it's three core games only serving to push huge armies, all terrain as plastic kits, boring shops that all look identical with identical RoB tables, and publishing a magazine that says nothing of any interest. It's a shame FW and Black Library need their parent company to survive, because they are the only ones doing something interesting.

I've gotten to the point where I have enough so I only buy new things for csm/demons/eldar - I've not touched my wolves since about 4th ed.

I've got about 20k across my main 3 - my entire wants list is 10 warptalons and maybe 5 more wraithguard. Thats it.

My ferrari is now parked. I polish it every now and then. Its also my weekend car so I spend less on mileage and save on insurance too.

Ferraris are a status symbol. People buy them because they're rich and can afford to run them. If I was given a ferrari now, I still couldn't afford to run one. If everyone gave me lots of 40k all of a sudden, I'm sure I could find a use for it.
Driving down the street in a ferrari results in people staring at your car.
Walking down the street with 40k only results in people staring if you're doing the 40k trick balancing act with 2 cases, three shoeboxes and a couple of bags.

I get 40k is a luxury item, but at the end of it I can buy GW in instalments. I'm fairly sure Ferrari wouldn't deal with me if I said 'I'll take one, I'll give you random amounts between £10 and £50 for a while, I may also spend money on ebay and won't give you any money at all some months..."

GW lost me when they deleted the Specialist Games. I've little interest in the core games because they're (broadly) for children.

If you have to ask the price you can not afford it.

That's what I learnt from Pretty Woman any way.

That and legs, long, long Julia Robert's legs.

Evil & Chaos wrote:
I've little interest in the core games because they're (broadly) for children.

Ah, a perfect contender for this thread.

MarsNZ wrote:

Evil & Chaos wrote:
I've little interest in the core games because they're (broadly) for children.

Ah, a perfect contender for this thread.

What other wargames have you played, other than the GW core games?

I also stopped spending money on GW models. I still buy books, mainly Horus Heresy, but I cannot bring myself to finishing my Dark Eldar which basically would mean buying 2 or 3 more Venoms.

It is not because of the prices, although they are indeed a factor, but because Infinity is just a better game, where I have more fun playing.

Evil & Chaos wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

Evil & Chaos wrote:
I've little interest in the core games because they're (broadly) for children.

Ah, a perfect contender for this thread.

What other wargames have you played, other than the GW core games?

On TT? I'm sitting on quite a sizeable FoW army, around 4500-5000 points. I played Necromunda back in the late '90s, and recently started up a new campaign with some friends. Also played some AD&D although not for very long. I'm much more of a video gamer, but I suppose those are 'for kids' as well so I won't list any here.

...I suppose those are 'for kids' as well so I won't list any here.

Not all of them, no.

But your other big tabletop game FoW is certainly not aimed at the "adult wargamer" market, it's aimed at the same kind of GW casual/entry-level/child market that GW targets with their core games - it's the GW of historical wargaming, really.

Necromunda, debatable, but tends towards an older target demographic. Some of the other more specifically grown-up intended SG games like Warmaster & Epic are definitely not aimed at children, the "clean sophistication" of the rules systems just confuses and bores kids (and the same goes for various more "adult intended" WWII wargames).

You can disagree with me, but that doesn't make you right. :-p

It makes me every bit as right as you seeing as you waited till I posted what I play then backpedaled and rubbished everything I play, a very childish method of making a point now that I think back to my school days. I don't like intricate tables and weekend-long skirmishes looking up intricate millimetre values for dozens of hit locations on a specific make of Panzer IV in a WW2 game. I guess that makes me a kid.

Good day.

The only thing I bought from GW in the last 2 years was the Necron codex. Everything else I bought was 2nd hand at ridiculous prices - 200 Goblins for ~70€? Yes please.

The thing about price is that there is no objective way to judge them. A price is too high for any buyer that either cannot afford it, or does not see the value in it.

So, rather than making a blanket statement like "$75 for a flier is too much," instead you have each person saying things such as "for me, who no longer actively plays 40k, $75 for a flier is too much."

Why do you see people defending PP prices while deriding GW's? Because they are playing with the PP models they buy! For me $120 for a stormwall will be a good buy. Spending $120 on a High Elf Battalion will result in a shrink wrapped box sitting in my closet.

I find myself flinching at GW's prices, but I realize it's because I don't play 40k anymore. I could afford it, I have a good job and plenty of disposable income. But for me, GW isn't worth the price.

What I shouldn't do, and what more people need to stop doing, is generalizing their own decision that GW is too expensive as an overall inditment. Why? Because it implies that anybody buying GW is a sucker, or mark, or otherwise foolish. Not only are they none of those things, but people become defensive when called out on that.

The decision to leave a hobby, or put it on hiatus, is a big one, but I'm not sure its really a fertile ground for discussion.

I am out of the 40k game now.I switched over to Flames of war. but it really didnt price me out it was the Codex creep and lets discontinue use of armies.I was a Witch Hunters IG/Inquistion player.
As for new players ,wthich was the other turn off.I already had 10,000 pt apoc. worth of guard.I had a 150 man Stormtrooper company.So already had a army. But we started to price armies for them and it was running around a 1000$ for them to play.As for playing 15mm ww2 you can buy a decent force for under 200$ and get your Army book for free.

I still purchase GW. I play it quite a bit. As much as I move it's allowed me to make friends in new cities and across the country based on events I attend.

The cost is worth benefits to me. When it's not, then I'll stop. Polonius hit that on the head.

And based on his style of posting I thought the OP was out of GW a long time ago.

It's been my experience that while price might be the reason a person stops buying 40k, it's rarely, if ever, the reason they leave the hobby.

If a person is playing league games weekly, tournaments montly, and is building a new army all the time, price becomes an obstacle, not a barrier. it's only when you stop playing that price becomes prohibitive.

But, it's not as much fun to announce, "I've decided I just don't play the game, so I'm quititng."

 Polonius wrote:
The thing about price is that there is no objective way to judge them. A price is too high for any buyer that either cannot afford it, or does not see the value in it.

So, rather than making a blanket statement like "$75 for a flier is too much," instead you have each person saying things such as "for me, who no longer actively plays 40k, $75 for a flier is too much."

Why do you see people defending PP prices while deriding GW's? Because they are playing with the PP models they buy! For me $120 for a stormwall will be a good buy. Spending $120 on a High Elf Battalion will result in a shrink wrapped box sitting in my closet.

I find myself flinching at GW's prices, but I realize it's because I don't play 40k anymore. I could afford it, I have a good job and plenty of disposable income. But for me, GW isn't worth the price.

What I shouldn't do, and what more people need to stop doing, is generalizing their own decision that GW is too expensive as an overall inditment. Why? Because it implies that anybody buying GW is a sucker, or mark, or otherwise foolish. Not only are they none of those things, but people become defensive when called out on that.

The decision to leave a hobby, or put it on hiatus, is a big one, but I'm not sure its really a fertile ground for discussion.

I'm an active 40K player* and I find the price for fliers too much.

I dare say that competitive gamers will value the meta value more highly and be more inclined to buy good game units at prices other players recoil at. But for your standard casual gamer (the market GW claims to be aiming at) the in-game effectiveness is less important, and they may decide that they'd rather make do than spend $75 on a flier**.


*my last game was 2 days ago,1500pts of IG Versus a new Farsight Tau army, I got whooped by turn 3.

** I'm still in 2 minds about the Valkyrie kit I bought a couple of years ago; do I make it up and use it, even though I feel fliers are an odd addition to a skirmish game, or do I sell it at a slight loss (I bought it on spec before the price hikes) and buy something more useful (like a Hellhound).

Evil & Chaos wrote:

...I suppose those are 'for kids' as well so I won't list any here.

Not all of them, no.

But your other big tabletop game FoW is certainly not aimed at the "adult wargamer" market, it's aimed at the same kind of GW casual/entry-level/child market that GW targets with their core games - it's the GW of historical wargaming, really.

Necromunda, debatable, but tends towards an older target demographic. Some of the other more specifically grown-up intended SG games like Warmaster & Epic are definitely not aimed at children, the "clean sophistication" of the rules systems just confuses and bores kids (and the same goes for various more "adult intended" WWII wargames).

You can disagree with me, but that doesn't make you right. :-p

It's certainly difficult to judge what it's aimed at but I'd argue that whilst 40K is currently marketed at children, it's overly cumbersome rules and abundance of special rules (and things like there being 4 different types of save (5 if you count 'stims' as different to FNP), of which some can override others) makes it pretty complicated for children and more into the realm of adults games. As a 30 year old Software Developer who pays casually I struggle keeping up with all the special rules interactions. When I was 15 I remember 2nd Ed 40K being a lot simpler.

So it may be aimed at children, but there are much more child (and adult) friendly games out there, like X-Wing.

Herzlos wrote:
I'm an active 40K player* and I find the price for fliers too much

I have a good buddy that has a huge cygnar collection, and finds the price of Stormlances too much.

But you don't find it too much because the price is objectively too high. As you explain later, you don't like the mechnaics of fliers and don't enjoy them. I could offer a vegetarian the best cut of beef on earth for $5 a pound, and ti's not a good deal for him.

It's shocking how many people confuse "I don't want that product" with "that product is too expensive."

 Polonius wrote:
It's been my experience that while price might be the reason a person stops buying 40k, it's rarely, if ever, the reason they leave the hobby.

If a person is playing league games weekly, tournaments montly, and is building a new army all the time, price becomes an obstacle, not a barrier. it's only when you stop playing that price becomes prohibitive.

But, it's not as much fun to announce, "I've decided I just don't play the game, so I'm quititng."

It also baffles me the need that people get to announce that they are going to stop doing something.

If you wan't to quit, then quit! There is no need to create a thread about it.

In the last couple of years I've sold off a lot of my armies, mostly to fund other projects. Right now I have 2 armies for each game, Lizardmen, goblins, necrons and tyranids. So I'm just going to keep those and add new things here and there, but I don't expect to ever start a new army again. It's just too expensive and frankly I'm finding 10-model skirmish games to be a heluva lot more fun these days. I just don't have the spare time I used to and with skirmish games I can get a good team or army going in a short time, and for a lot cheaper.

 Polonius wrote:
It's been my experience that while price might be the reason a person stops buying 40k, it's rarely, if ever, the reason they leave the hobby.

If a person is playing league games weekly, tournaments montly, and is building a new army all the time, price becomes an obstacle, not a barrier. it's only when you stop playing that price becomes prohibitive.

But, it's not as much fun to announce, "I've decided I just don't play the game, so I'm quititng."

If it's presumptuous to make blanket statements that GW is too expensive, then it's presumptuous to claim that nobody quits "the hobby" because GW prices them out of the market, and doubly so to try and cast anyone who asserts they did as just looking for a sensationalist way to present their decision.

And frankly, I don't agree that it's wrong to say GW is too expensive. Goods have an objective value and a subjective value, the former being the cost of materials, labour, development, production, distribution, warehousing, and necessary company overheads, and the latter being the Capitalist definition of value as "whatever someone is willing to pay". There comes a point when a product is priced so far above its objective value that anyone who buys it is being irrational, regardless of the subjective value they assign to it; a perfect example is that ludicrous Kanye West t-shirt. It's a plain, white, crew-neck cotton t-shirt, and they were charging $120US for it. There is no scenario in which paying $120US for a plain white t-shirt is rational. Some of GW's product range is approaching that point, some has already passed it, and the realisation of that is why I stopped buying GW models except in very rare instances - I was allowing my love for the 40K and WHF IPs to inflate my assessment of GW product's subjective value.

I still quite happily buy what I like form GW, not that it's very much after 25 years.

I don't tend to spam units or play apocalypse so have no reason to have a huge collection of minis on the shelf; plus I haven't felt the urge to buy a new army since the original Tau Empire Army boxset was released. If I did want one I am lucky enough to be able to afford one (assuming I can hide the boxes from the Mrs - but the loft is looking pretty full these days ).

So I don't generally take too much of an interest in the price conversations, even so some prices do make you baulk a little.

Like this doozy. There's allot there but I swear I nearly chocked on my bacon banjo when I landed on that from an innocuous ad email.

If you've not read seen the email, it goes form tat Apoc cannon thing, to a wall of martyrs set up, to that. I suppose it makes the cannon look cheaper?

 Polonius wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
I'm an active 40K player* and I find the price for fliers too much

But you don't find it too much because the price is objectively too high. As you explain later, you don't like the mechnaics of fliers and don't enjoy them. I could offer a vegetarian the best cut of beef on earth for $5 a pound, and ti's not a good deal for him.

No I said that I find fliers an odd addition considering the scale, but that's independent of the price. It's a useful gaming piece, and I'd definitely keep it if the price was better as I'd be able to fit it in somewhere, but at the current price I feel it's too expensive for me to justify it and that I'm happy to not use one as they don't always fit anyway.

If I'd gone for Marine allies, I wouldn't buy any Stormtalons because I think they are too expensive, even if they make more sense than troop dropships. If I was a Tau player I'd find the Riptide too expensive even if it fits the army fine. If I was eldar I wouldn't be buying a WraithKnight either.

I will agree that utility affects the price though; the more desirably it is in game, or the more modelling enjoyment a player gets, then the more it's worth. Up to a point.

Herzlos wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
If I'd gone for Marine allies, I wouldn't buy any Stormtalons because I think they are too expensive, even if they make more sense than troop dropships. If I was a Tau player I'd find the Riptide too expensive even if it fits the army fine. If I was eldar I wouldn't be buying a WraithKnight either.

Stormtalons are less than 50 bucks... Stormravens on the other hand is almost a little over 80 dollars... I can buy 2 Stormtalons for a little more than the cost of 1 Stormraven.