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 jonolikespie wrote:

Except that sales have been dropping by about 10% a year in Australia for what, a good 5 years now?
price rises and cost cutting have kept them turning a profit but less and less people are playing GW games which is very bad for them long term. It used to be that everyone played 40k cos that's what everyone else played, now people are looking at other games because not everyone plays 40k any more and if nothing changes in a few years no one will be getting into the game because they will have no one to play with.

Exactly what has happened here in Canada. Except apparently GW keeps getting enough new people to still have a few stores here and has a good number of trade accounts.

But if enough people can be sold the product to keep revenue flat and then GW can cut costs to stay profitable, then it'll work for them. Even if it means shrinking their market share even further.

I think my thoughts about stopping buying because of price can be summed up as follows:

GW already has all the money they thought they were going to get from you. They've geared their product offerings to have very high up front costs so the act of getting into the game ensures them the greatest amount of revenue. They only expect you to get either a starter or a rulebook, a codex, paints and hobby supplies, the start of an army and one or two purchases here or there before you quit.

If you hit the point where you see the pattern of higher and higher prices, then you've been around long enough that GW has already gotten what they want from you.

There's more money in new people than in keeping you or I happy, so they can keep raising prices and trying to sell the product to new people who don't yet know just how bad the overall cost of a full army is now and certainly don't have an awareness of lower prices from the past. And if you're into your 20s or 30s, you're certainly not GW's target market anymore. Anything you spend is just gravy to them.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
Get a job.

Got one.
You bore me, narrow that mind a little more.

I was addressing the OP, not you.

Well let me get off my high horse then...
Next time I will assume addressed to OP unless shown otherwise.
Great statement to get people excited though, as demonstrated.

But why does it have to be one or the other?

Surely it makes more sense to try to keep the vets happy while bringing in new blood than to insult them, especially when word of mouth is their only form of advertising.

I got priced out a while ago. Maybe around 2009 was the last time I bought something from GW?

I stopped caring about GW and its pricing raising because by that point I saw that they had hit the point of no return.

 jonolikespie wrote:
But why does it have to be one or the other?

Surely it makes more sense to try to keep the vets happy while bringing in new blood than to insult them, especially when word of mouth is their only form of advertising.

And those video games.

And those novels that are always on the "new sci if" shelf.

And that whole "only miniatures company with their own store" thing.

Word of mouth is certainly a big branch, but its far from the only form.

Also, the demo sales process works. When GW stores do it, they sell starters. Same when Independent retailers can make it work.

It's the reason Privateer has focused their volunteer pressgangers so much on demo games.

Demoing games sells games. Old fashion, put the product in the customer's hands kind of sales. Their retail arm is a form of marketing that uses time tested sales methods of getting people to try it, giving them a positive experience with it, putting it in their hand and closing the sale.

 Talizvar wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I agree that if you're jobless maybe expensive hobbies aren't for you (and that isn't limited to war gaming) but I don't think that precludes some of the GW pricing to be high. And again, I've expressed that a few times already in this thread. That being said, I don't think they're under any obligation to lower them.

Someone jobless would have more important things on their mind than the price of gaming.
For the diversions out there, GW is facing strong competition in number and quality of models as well as engaging IP.
I am under no obligation to buy their stuff if they keep the prices high.

It is simply being attracted elsewhere for gaming value than crying poor.
When you are paying over $7 for a joe troop model however, you do start wondering if it is competing with your scotch fund...

Well, to be fair, you were under no obligation to buy them in the first place. The OP stated his only sources of discretionary income were from birthdays and Christmas. While he may have a job, he certainly wasn't making any additional "play money" and he seemed to be pretty concerned that GW priced him out.

I mean, you certainly shouldn't have to be a sheikh to play 40k, but if your only source of income is those two means, maybe hobbies that cost money aren't for you at this moment in time anyway.

 jonolikespie wrote:
But why does it have to be one or the other?

Surely it makes more sense to try to keep the vets happy while bringing in new blood than to insult them, especially when word of mouth is their only form of advertising.

What would make you happy other than that which brought you in as a customer in the first place? How about another new edition or perhaps a new codex release updating an army? Maybe to entice existing customers to start another army. Perhaps a flyer or a big monster or robot kit to go along with your existing army? Surely more of the same is just what the doctor ordered.

EDIT: I'll answer my own question: For GW to get me back as a customer, they need to retool their game experience from the ground up. And start concentrating on game design rather than just seeing the design studio as a promotional department for selling toy soldiers. Some integrity in game product design like Paizo has with Pathfinder or Wizards has with MTG. Or even Privateer with Warmachine/Hordes. As it stand, GW's rules are just an idea they use to sell people miniatures they may or may not ever play a game with. I want the game to be the point again and not just part of a sales pitch. However I do get that their existing business model and customer behaviour expectations don't merit the reboot I'd like to see. The way they are operating is working for them, so why should they change?

It's still cheaper than a decent drug habit.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Also, the demo sales process works. When GW stores do it, they sell starters. Same when Independent retailers can make it work.

It's the reason Privateer has focused their volunteer pressgangers so much on demo games.

Demoing games sells games. Old fashion, put the product in the customer's hands kind of sales. Their retail arm is a form of marketing that uses time tested sales methods of getting people to try it, giving them a positive experience with it, putting it in their hand and closing the sale.

You make it sound a lot creepier than it is. Or do you have a moral objection to kids having hobbies and being introduced to tabletop gaming and painting/modelling? You'd rather they just stared blankly at a tv playing COD all day?

 BryllCream wrote:
So the point of this thread is "I'm not into 40k"? Should I start a thread saying that I have no interest in Debenham's menwear because I consider it over-priced?

If you're a grown-up with a full time job then £25 a week on a hobby isn't too much for *anyone*. If you don't want to spend it on GW then it means you don't like Gw, it's not because it used to only cost you £23 a week (that's an 8% increase which is more than the average price increases before anyone starts).

"The Games Workshop Hobby, I gotta admit it, I'm out. The prices got to me."

Comprehend to title!

You should start that thread on the men's wear forum.

And £25 doesn't get you as much as it used too at GW.

 BryllCream wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Also, the demo sales process works. When GW stores do it, they sell starters. Same when Independent retailers can make it work.

It's the reason Privateer has focused their volunteer pressgangers so much on demo games.

Demoing games sells games. Old fashion, put the product in the customer's hands kind of sales. Their retail arm is a form of marketing that uses time tested sales methods of getting people to try it, giving them a positive experience with it, putting it in their hand and closing the sale.

You make it sound a lot creepier than it is. Or do you have a moral objection to kids having hobbies and being introduced to tabletop gaming and painting/modelling? You'd rather they just stared blankly at a tv playing COD all day?

I don't think he made it sound creepy at all. That's what it is; get people to try it, turns out they like it, they buy it.

Purple Saturday wrote:
It's still cheaper than a decent drug habit.

Your buying your weed from the wrong people! does it come in a GW bag?

you could try melting down and smoking finecast.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

Purple Saturday wrote:
It's still cheaper than a decent drug habit.

Your buying your weed from the wrong people! does it come in a GW bag?

Oh how quaint. You thought he meant marijuana.

 BryllCream wrote:

You make it sound a lot creepier than it is. Or do you have a moral objection to kids having hobbies and being introduced to tabletop gaming and painting/modelling? You'd rather they just stared blankly at a tv playing COD all day?

I don't understand how it's creepy. Or do you think that GW doesn't include sales training for their single-employee store managers? Do you think they're actually interested in what army you play when they ask? They're asking as part of a sales technique they've been trained to use. Do you think that when they do a demo game and the customer always wins it is because the employee sucks at the game? They're letting the customer win in order to ensure a positive experience with the game. Surely this isn't news to you.

And when did I ever say anything about having moral objections to anything? Or being a video game proponent? I have no moral objections to GW and don't really care for extended video game play. I think you've confused yourself.

I think he's confusing you with the other Canadian that is convinced everyone in the miniatures hobby would rather play video games and let someone else paint and construct their models.

 BryllCream wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Also, the demo sales process works. When GW stores do it, they sell starters. Same when Independent retailers can make it work.

It's the reason Privateer has focused their volunteer pressgangers so much on demo games.

Demoing games sells games. Old fashion, put the product in the customer's hands kind of sales. Their retail arm is a form of marketing that uses time tested sales methods of getting people to try it, giving them a positive experience with it, putting it in their hand and closing the sale.

You make it sound a lot creepier than it is. Or do you have a moral objection to kids having hobbies and being introduced to tabletop gaming and painting/modelling? You'd rather they just stared blankly at a tv playing COD all day?

hunching over a desk for hours on end glueing and painting is no better than playing video games. dont pretend like it is.

 cincydooley wrote:
For all of you that are making these ethical stands against buying from GW, I think that's great. Honestly. But remember that all that 2nd hand stuff you're buying was purchased from GW at some point. Also remember that GW sells product to distributors at a significant markdown anyway, so the % off retail that you're paying second hand is really far less than GWs bottom selling line.

I mean, I think voting with your wallet is the best way to show your dissatisfaction, but its got a bit more oomph if you actually quit buying their product completely and not just first hand

And twice the oomph if you spend that money on competitors' products. Three times the oomph if you use those products at your FLGS. Four times the oomph if you actively promote said products and work to build a thriving community around them. Hell, send GW videos of your Warmahordes tournament, pictures of your Infinity league, or battle reports from your Kings of War games.

The swiftest, best response I ever got from GW customer service was when I first started boycotting GW for ethical reasons. I sent GW a list of my planned GW purchases with MSRP, explained why I was planning those purchases, and attached a list of the same value of Privateer Press starter boxes that I had purchased instead. I explained that I had never purchased a single PP product in my life and had never expected to, but that I had now done so because of behavior GW was engaged in. This is your company. This is your company losing market share.

I got a personal phone call from GW customer service inside of a week. I politely explained that Games Workshop's litigation and treatment of the hobby community in general were the principle reasons I had made my decision, and stated that I would, as long as such activity continued, continue spending my table-top wargaming dollars elsewhere.

It may not look like it, but Games Workshop really does care about losing market share. Games Workshop knows it is happening, and instead of actually taking steps to deal with it intelligently, GW has instead chosen to say, "This is great news!"

kb305 wrote:

hunching over a desk for hours on end glueing and painting is no better than playing video games. dont pretend like it is.

I guess that's the case if you don't value being creative.

Different people value different things and that act of valuing is what makes a hobby worthwhile.

 frozenwastes wrote:

kb305 wrote:

hunching over a desk for hours on end glueing and painting is no better than playing video games. dont pretend like it is.

I guess that's the case if you don't value being creative.

Different people value different things and that act of valuing is what makes a hobby worthwhile.

at a kid's level it's little more than paint by numbers and there's pressure to paint them in established color schemes.

if you value having your kids sit around all day inside hunched over a desk breathing plastic glue, primer fumes and god knows what else then i dont know what you tell you.

Dakka Dakka is a community site devoted to miniature wargaming, if you don't see any value in that hobby, why are you posting here?

And are you actually implying that parents who let their children do things related to plastic models are bad parents for exposing them to toxins? Really? And if so, what does this have to do with anything? Do you have anything to say about the topic at hand other than some sort of crusade to push video games over miniatures?

kb305 wrote:
hunching over a desk for hours on end glueing and painting is no better than playing video games. dont pretend like it is.

The end result is what matters. For example -

I did both this weekend. I finished off a Haqqislam hassassin and started a Nasmat drone, and felt pretty good about my progress towards having my 200pt list done. Took me a few hours all up.

I also put about 6 hours into Guild Wars 2 to do my Daily and Monthly acheivment goals. I finished my Daily, but still haven't done my monthly, and played some wvw. I'm also no closer to my goal of having teir 3 armour for my character.

Neither of these had any human contact.

Next week I'll be bringing my nearly complete 200pt list to have a game against my friend or my brother, whoever has the time. This will be a good half day of actual human contact in a friendly environment, probably having a few drinks, lunch, and catching up on gak.

I'll also probably put a few hours into Guild Wars 2, acheive a Daily goal and part of my new Monthly goal, and be no closer to my teir 3 armour. Still having no actual human contact while doing it.

One of these activities leads to actually getting out of the house like a human being. One leads to more sitting around on the couch/chair doing the same thing over and over.

I get the itch for both, but they're not the same thing.

kb305 wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

kb305 wrote:

hunching over a desk for hours on end glueing and painting is no better than playing video games. dont pretend like it is.

I guess that's the case if you don't value being creative.

Different people value different things and that act of valuing is what makes a hobby worthwhile.

at a kid's level it's little more than paint by numbers and there's pressure to paint them in established color schemes.

if you value having your kids sit around all day inside hunched over a desk breathing plastic glue, primer fumes and god knows what else then i dont know what you tell you.

It's called "ventilation." And who primes inside their house? At the end of the day, if I've played a video game, I have a bunch of ones and zeros inside a metal box. If I built and painted a model, I have a little piece of art to show for it. And who cares about what a child is doing right now in terms of output? He's developing skills to become a better painter and learning patience.

 cincydooley wrote:
Word of mouth is certainly a big branch, but its far from the only form.

According to GW's statements from the Chapterhouse lawsuit, it is their biggest one, though.

I dont see where the Tabletop vs Video Gaming is coming from atm. Neither are better or worse than the other. They are hobbies nothing more nothing less.

Besides there's always ebay for cheaper miniatures

One line struck me "Their bottom line seems healthy". It isn't, at least that's not what my business/finance friends say.

GW has lately been cranking out the new books & models, raising prices, and looking to be in a dash to raise their bottom line. Also if you read their stock holder reports they aren't making nearly as much as they should be considering their expenses. What I was told was they seem to be getting all their stuff off the drawing board & into production so they can beef their sales up quickly & look good to potential investors / buyers. I'm not saying they're looking to completely sell out but maybe be bought out by a parent company & become something like netherealm studios after midway fell.


DISCLAIMER: This is PURE SPECULATION based on what I have seen, read & been told.

Sounds plausable but if they reintroduce specialist games & with the new space hulk coming perhaps their sales will boost

I don't usually chime in on these sorts of threads as what other people like to spend on their wargaming comes down to so many factors (enjoyment they get out of it, income, time available, other hobbies in their lives) that its pretty much upto the individual and shouldn't need my input.

However I must admit, from a personal standpoint, those new apocalypse formations had me raising an eye brow as a GW fan and player. I mean upto $1800 for a formation without any substantial discount or attempt to market it as a good buy was really disgusting and just a slap in the face really. Even as someone with a decent amount of disposable income I honestly don't know who would buy these sorts of things.

I've stood by GW since I got into the hobby. I Love the rules, the background, I don't mind dropping some money on a kit that gives me a good few hours of painting time then gaming time ontop of that. I've tried the other game systems out there and in my opinion none are as enjoyable, but when they just spit in your face like that it really makes you think if they value you as a customer at all.