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 Talizvar wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Five times the oomph If you go to a gamesday event, wearing a tee shirt saying "I play ****insert competitor ***** twice the fun, at half the cost

I wonder if they would have some little known clause for the event for just such a thing to cover up or get kicked out? Seeing how they like to control the gaming environment I wonder...drink the cool-aid wear the t-shirt.

why would you go to an event run by a company wearing a t shirt specifically endorsing their competitor? You realise that everyone there will simply think you're a dick and you'll be kicked out?w

And you'd be paying them for this opportunity too. So you may as well just walk into a gw store, hand them a tonne of money, then walk out. It's the same end result.

The prices has indeed got to me. I restarted my hobby back in 2009. Back then the prices are resonabile for my standard I and bought the models/paint and enjoy the hobby. Today at 2013, with high model prices and lack to discount alternatives here in Canada. the price has restricted by purchases to anything new or extending my current army.

I still love 40k, I still have unpainted models to finish and play the occasional game at FLGS. What changed is that I won't be adding new models to my existing army. I like the new models but the current price point is too high to justifly the purchase. Now I use my hobby money for other minitures company, who seem to be producing good models to paint and play at much lower price points.

Why am I posting here to cry? its becuase there are fewer and fewer newcomers to 40K with the high price point. and many more like me who still play but stop expanding their armies. In a few years 40K will fade out from my community. and this makes me want to voice here.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Five times the oomph If you go to a gamesday event, wearing a tee shirt saying "I play ****insert competitor ***** twice the fun, at half the cost

I wonder if they would have some little known clause for the event for just such a thing to cover up or get kicked out? Seeing how they like to control the gaming environment I wonder...drink the cool-aid wear the t-shirt.

why would you go to an event run by a company wearing a t shirt specifically endorsing their competitor? You realise that everyone there will simply think you're a dick and you'll be kicked out?w

And you'd be paying them for this opportunity too. So you may as well just walk into a gw store, hand them a tonne of money, then walk out. It's the same end result.

Call me crazy, but without any rules specifying dress code, I would absolutely expect my money back if I were ejected based merely on dress.

weeble1000 wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Five times the oomph If you go to a gamesday event, wearing a tee shirt saying "I play ****insert competitor ***** twice the fun, at half the cost

I wonder if they would have some little known clause for the event for just such a thing to cover up or get kicked out? Seeing how they like to control the gaming environment I wonder...drink the cool-aid wear the t-shirt.

why would you go to an event run by a company wearing a t shirt specifically endorsing their competitor? You realise that everyone there will simply think you're a dick and you'll be kicked out?w

And you'd be paying them for this opportunity too. So you may as well just walk into a gw store, hand them a tonne of money, then walk out. It's the same end result.

Call me crazy, but without any rules specifying dress code, I would absolutely expect my money back if I were ejected based merely on dress.

I don't know, if you are willfully and obstinately taking the piss, do you really deserve your cash back?

If you went into the home end during a football game, and then whipped your jacket off to sport the opposition teams colors, I would expect you to get thrown out for being a dick, and money be damned. Same goes for anything along those lines, walking into a mosque on Friday prayers wearing traditional garb and then whipping it off to show a "BACON RULES" shirt, marching into a feminist rally with a NO MEANS YES, YES MEANS ANAL, or anything else along those lines.

I dislike many of the things that many groups and organisations do, but acting like a willful prick is a surefire way to get fethed off with no money returned, and pretty much everyone will agree with your treatment, even if they are in agreement with the sentiment. I wouldn't ever pay to go to a GW gamesday considering the company seem to be largely taking the piss, but I would certainly think you were an absolute tool if you turned up sporting said shirt, and I would laugh/help them throw you out if it came to it.

Im all for disagreeing, but theres a way to do it, and being needlessly belligerent in front of people who feel strongly about things isnt one of them. Im a pretty strong atheist but I dont think people should be able to act in such a manner in churches and cathedrals, its just rude, crass, and fething childish.

Or rather.. its not cricket old chap.

 BryllCream wrote:
why would you go to an event run by a company wearing a t shirt specifically endorsing their competitor? You realise that everyone there will simply think you're a dick and you'll be kicked out?
And you'd be paying them for this opportunity too. So you may as well just walk into a gw store, hand them a tonne of money, then walk out. It's the same end result.

Why not wear competitor merchandise?
As indicated you spend a lot of money to get in and for the materials to play.
I do not owe them something more other than exactly what I paid for.

Why would everyone think badly of me if I wear competitor clothing?
Would that fall under the same category as differing interests like MTG?
Lack of loyalty to the community brand?
StarCraft apparel would be competitor as well since GW has 40k video games.
If it was any other company, few would give it any thought.

Would a person be kicked out for wearing a competitor T-shirt?
Did some searches, found nothing, could be possible... anyone out there seen this?
I think I would wear something JUST to find out not to be a jerk but to see how they handle it.
I would then make my purchases in the future accordingly.

Handing them a ton of money would be the same end result (paraphrase).
No it would not.
Asking them what policy or disclaimer had been violated would be the first question.
They typically hold it at a convention center so they cannot fall back on trespassing so they lean on stipulations on the ticket or criminal code to eject offenders.
For them to keep the money (only $50, not all that much compared to their other products) without good reason can cause them trouble when made public.

At least they are still holding games day and at $50 I can say they are not pricing themselves out in this regard (Anime North was $45 for a day, close enough).

<<edit>> I do agree that "wearing the other team's colours." is poorly viewed (possibly life threatening at a football/soccer match). GW does not acknowledge or allow venues for protest so this event would be the one. I would just want to get a dig in with a hat anyway... anything I would bring to a games day would set straight where I really hang my hat.

Anyone else miss the days when army books and codices only cost 25$?

The thing to remember is that GW's plan is to get as much money as possible from people before they quit, so they need the army book/codex to cost more because it's far more likely to be purchased than any given box set for an army.

It's shocking when you look at what $50 gets you in the RPG market. Many, many times the page count, original fiction, more art. With GW it gets you a thin volume with recycled art and fiction.

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's shocking when you look at what $50 gets you in the RPG market. Many, many times the page count, original fiction, more art. With GW it gets you a thin volume with recycled art and fiction.

That's simply untrue. The last few codexes have had lots of new artwork and new fiction, but some fiction is repeated simply because there's no need to re-invent the wheel. I recently received Vampire the Masquerade and Werewolf the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Editions, which were twice the cost of the new codexes, and filled with repeated art and fiction. GW is not the only company to do that, it would seem, and not the worst offender. But it does appear that it's only a problem if GW does this.

kb305 wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

kb305 wrote:

hunching over a desk for hours on end glueing and painting is no better than playing video games. dont pretend like it is.

I guess that's the case if you don't value being creative.

Different people value different things and that act of valuing is what makes a hobby worthwhile.

at a kid's level it's little more than paint by numbers and there's pressure to paint them in established color schemes.

if you value having your kids sit around all day inside hunched over a desk breathing plastic glue, primer fumes and god knows what else then i don't know what you tell you.

I have been painting miniatures since I was twelve years old.

I have been building models since I was eight.

Maybe when you were a kid you were painting by numbers, and completely uncreative, but I can assure you that it is by no means universal. I have seen way too many kids enjoying the heck out of everything from crayons to finger paints to watercolors to think that children are not creative.

They may not be great artists, but their is nothing wrong with their imaginations.

As for the fumes - If the room is well ventilated then there is no problem. I prime in a little place that I like to call 'outside'. You know - that weird place with the trees and the birds?

The Auld Grump

 Haemonculus wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's shocking when you look at what $50 gets you in the RPG market. Many, many times the page count, original fiction, more art. With GW it gets you a thin volume with recycled art and fiction.

That's simply untrue. The last few codexes have had lots of new artwork and new fiction, but some fiction is repeated simply because there's no need to re-invent the wheel. I recently received Vampire the Masquerade and Werewolf the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Editions, which were twice the cost of the new codexes, and filled with repeated art and fiction. GW is not the only company to do that, it would seem, and not the worst offender. But it does appear that it's only a problem if GW does this.

Apples and kumquats...an anniversary edition is expected to be mostly the same with a fancy cover and maybe some additional goodies (dust jacket, sleeve, new forward by the authors with a 20 year retrospective). A new Codex is a new book. It would be like if TSR reused art and fiction from AD&D when they did 2nd Edition back in the day.

Most of what goes into a new Codex went into the old Codex, or a Black Library book, or a Codex 2 Editions ago. Compare that to...lets just keep things as close as possible...a book like the 40K RPGs from FFG. Big, hard bound, full color books - slam full of brand new art, fiction, fluffy bits and all that. Page for page, you easily get twice as much from them as you do from GW and that doesnt even take into account the actual amount of new content versus old.

Other companies dont recycle material because they want to give a reason for veterans to buy the new item. An anniversary edition is a reason in its own right. A new edition of the rules will get ignored by existing players if they dont get something new from it...though that isnt news - GW has a very low regard for veteran retention in their turn and burn business strategy.

Not quite Apples and Kumquats - more like Oranges and Tangerines.

More importantly, from GW's PoV, if spending $50 gets me more RPG stuff then I am more likely to spend that $50 on RPG stuff.

If I spend my fruit dollars buying Tangerines then I do not have the fruit dollars to buy Oranges.

I buy Paizo - that money is gone, and not going anywhere near GW.

I buy Chaosium - that money is gone and goes nowhere near GW.

I buy miniatures from Reaper to use with GW - that money is gone, going nowhere near GW, and to go back to the fruit stall for a moment, is buying seedless oranges not tangerines.

However - RPG companies recycle art all the time - Paizo most certainly does.

Sometimes rules get recycled - Ultimate Campaign recycles the kingdom building rules from the Kingmaker arc.

Right now WotC is selling reprints of the older editions of D&D - it would not surprise me if the reprints are outselling 4e, at the moment.

At least some of the art is recycled, and all of the rules.

So... not quite Apples and Kumquats.

The Auld Grump

Different companies recycle art and fiction to different degrees, but a lot of the hardcover RPG books I've bought over the last year have been full of original stuff. If GW really wants to see how to put together a good 40k book, they only have to look at the FFG 40k RPG books. They must see them as licensed products usually require final approval in some form.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
A new Codex is a new book. It would be like if TSR reused art and fiction from AD&D when they did 2nd Edition back in the day.

Except GW has to keep all of the old units - certainly can't invalidate anything, right? And they need to include the regular background stuff on the particular army for the newbies, right? And some of the art is iconic for the army, right? And they have to add in new units to push new product, right?

All of the new codexes have had new weapon art, new art, expanded background sections, more info on batttles/timelines, etc than the older codexes. So to say they don't include anything new in the books is a bit disingenuous. Sure, they could certainly sell them cheaper, but someone is buying them at $50 a pop.

I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the Dark Angel book, the only 6th ed hardback book I purchased (and the only one I'm likely to even though I play 6 or so armies)

Edited once for quotes, twice for clarity

Sure, they could certainly sell them cheaper, but someone is buying them at $50 a pop.

Yea people are buying them at $50 a pop. The problem is that the trend I am seeing is that not everyone is buying all of them at $50 a pop.

Used to purchase every single codex at 5th Ed. I certainly won't for 6th.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

Sure, they could certainly sell them cheaper, but someone is buying them at $50 a pop.

Yea people are buying them at $50 a pop. The problem is that the trend I am seeing is that not everyone is buying all of them at $50 a pop.

Used to purchase every single codex at 5th Ed. I certainly won't for 6th.

Yup, this.

I own every codex released from 2nd edition through to the start of 6th. From the 6th edition releases so far, I have Codex: Dark Angels, and no intention of buying any more in the forseable future. The move to AU$85 hardcovers is directly responsible for that. At AU$50, like last edition, I would still be buying them all.

 frozenwastes wrote:

kb305 wrote:

hunching over a desk for hours on end glueing and painting is no better than playing video games. dont pretend like it is.

I guess that's the case if you don't value being creative.

Different people value different things and that act of valuing is what makes a hobby worthwhile.

Are you suggesting that creativity doesn't go in to playing videogames? One of the most important aspect in making games fun, be they videogames or traditional games, is the creativity that goes into playing them, as much as it does going into making them.

Cruentus wrote:

I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the Dark Angel book, the only 6th ed hardback book I purchased (and the only one I'm likely to even though I play 6 or so armies)

Don't you dare say something like this! Don't you know the Dark Angel Codex is the worst example of quality GW has ever produced? look carefully and you will find spelling mistakes, wording errors, units missing equipments, units gaining abilities that they shoudn't have, units losing abilities that they should have.

I am a DA player. but spending $60CAD retail to support this crap is one of the reasons I hate GW and their high prices can't even produce an error free/ rules correct codex.

wufai wrote:

Cruentus wrote:

I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the Dark Angel book, the only 6th ed hardback book I purchased (and the only one I'm likely to even though I play 6 or so armies)

Don't you dare say something like this! Don't you know the Dark Angel Codex is the worst example of quality GW has ever produced? look carefully and you will find spelling mistakes, wording errors, units missing equipments, units gaining abilities that they shoudn't have, units losing abilities that they should have.

I am a DA player. but spending $60CAD retail to support this crap is one of the reasons I hate GW and their high prices can't even produce an error free/ rules correct codex.

Man you Dark Angel players can carry the martyr syndrome can't you?

I mean, you say this as if every other codex doesn't have this issue. If you were a Tyranid player the 5th edition codex would have sent you into fits.

 Fafnir wrote:

Are you suggesting that creativity doesn't go in to playing videogames? One of the most important aspect in making games fun, be they videogames or traditional games, is the creativity that goes into playing them, as much as it does going into making them.

There's probably a forum where video game talk is appropriate and not off topic.

Back on topic...

As for GW, my biggest issue with their prices is the rules actively devaluing the models. A while back I bought some Glade Riders for use as Everblight Cavalry in Hordes. Five out of the box made up a unit and later another was converted into a cavalry special character solo. They made up more than a quarter of my army. But if I were to use them in Warhammer Fantasy Battles, they'd make up a tiny fraction of a complete army. Since 6th edition of WHFB and 3rd edition of 40k, GW's goal has been to drive the model count up and up and the net effect is that the miniatures they sell are less relevant on the table top.

The end result is a massive cost for a 2000 or 3000 point army and individual models that I might think are cool are never going to be a meaningful part of the game.

I would actually be quite alright with many of the US and UK prices of GW figures if the games didn't devalue them (there is no possible chance I'm going to pay Canadian full retail). So I use my existing collection with other rules and have stopped buying GW stuff at all. During 2nd edition 40k and 4th/5th edition WFB, the games had a much lower model count and the price of a complete force was quite lower, even adjusted for inflation and currency exchange changes. It was also the time when GW grew from an importer of other company's products into an international company. It was the period of their largest percentage year-over-year growth.

Warmachine/Hordes has a model count similar to GW's games during their greatest period of growth. They also have a lower total cost for a full sized army. Privateer seems to be going from strength to strength and expanding while GW stagnates. I wish GW would remember what made them the international company that they are today and return to their roots. The games of the 90s definitely had some problems, but that's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Since 6th edition of WHFB and 3rd edition of 40k, GW's goal has been to drive the model count up and up and the net effect is that the miniatures they sell are less relevant on the table top..

Technically, for 40K this started in 2nd edition, not 3rd, since RT was a small-force skirmish game, where 2nd ed started the transition into larger games.

But the push for larger and larger armies isn't something that can be blamed solely on GW. FOr all their faults, this is one of the places where they did listen to their fan base and give them what they wanted. (The cynic would say that's just because this particular change is good for their bottom line, but hey, what can you do...?)

What GW found was that while 2nd ed started out fairly small, once people got used to it they started wanting to play larger and larger games with a set of rules that really wasn't well suited to large games... So with the transition to 3rd ed, GW tried to make the game more suitable for those large battles, while still being playable at the intended 1500-2000 point range.

I'm not sure how miniatures are not 'relevant' but yes, this does mean you need to spend more to play bigger games... but there is certainly no requirement to play 20000 point games. Or even 1500 or 2000 point games... For a large chunk of 4th edition, the group I played with had a blast playing 500 point games.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Five times the oomph If you go to a gamesday event, wearing a tee shirt saying "I play ****insert competitor ***** twice the fun, at half the cost

I wonder if they would have some little known clause for the event for just such a thing to cover up or get kicked out? Seeing how they like to control the gaming environment I wonder...drink the cool-aid wear the t-shirt.

why would you go to an event run by a company wearing a t shirt specifically endorsing their competitor? You realise that everyone there will simply think you're a dick and you'll be kicked out?w

And you'd be paying them for this opportunity too. So you may as well just walk into a gw store, hand them a tonne of money, then walk out. It's the same end result.

I frequently make a point of wearing my 'Ard Boyz shirt to Warmachine events. It amuses me to do so, and most everyone there already knows I'm an arse anyways, so I might as well advertise it to the unwary as well.

 insaniak wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
Since 6th edition of WHFB and 3rd edition of 40k, GW's goal has been to drive the model count up and up and the net effect is that the miniatures they sell are less relevant on the table top..

Technically, for 40K this started in 2nd edition, not 3rd, since RT was a small-force skirmish game, where 2nd ed started the transition into larger games.

But the push for larger and larger armies isn't something that can be blamed solely on GW. FOr all their faults, this is one of the places where they did listen to their fan base and give them what they wanted. (The cynic would say that's just because this particular change is good for their bottom line, but hey, what can you do...?)

What GW found was that while 2nd ed started out fairly small, once people got used to it they started wanting to play larger and larger games with a set of rules that really wasn't well suited to large games... So with the transition to 3rd ed, GW tried to make the game more suitable for those large battles, while still being playable at the intended 1500-2000 point range.

I'm not sure how miniatures are not 'relevant' but yes, this does mean you need to spend more to play bigger games... but there is certainly no requirement to play 20000 point games. Or even 1500 or 2000 point games... For a large chunk of 4th edition, the group I played with had a blast playing 500 point games.

But they still obviously want to encourage lust for bigger games to sell more models. Look at how they push Apocalypse.

Anyway as much as the corporate types that run that company would love to start making models obsolete, they would never really try it. To much anger.

I think its good people can play big games. However I have no desire to play anything bigger then 1500. So much time moving models.

Anyway to examine what I've learnt in this discussion I we're being a bit hard on them. As I posted earlier they have more overheads then most other model companies, overheads that people can't really complain about. (Stores which have been useful to people, first world manufacturing (out-sourcing and neo-liberalism is the reason why all your countries have such high levels of unemployment and dire economic circumstances, remember that even your skilled jobs won't be safe soon).

They only made 10 percent profit this year.

However I think that they are doing very mean things which really irk me, just to get a few short term extra dollars. I think these mean things (like the dire avengers 10 to 5) make no sense from an economic rationale point of view and just drive people away.

MadMarkMagee wrote:

They only made 10 percent profit this year.

However I think that they are doing very mean things which really irk me, just to get a few short term extra dollars. I think these mean things (like the dire avengers 10 to 5) make no sense from an economic rationale point of view and just drive people away.

This is more or less why I stopped buying from GW. The prices don't really bother me that much (apart from the army book ones). Dirtying on yr fanbase and supporters by throwing legals at them does.

 AduroT wrote:
I frequently make a point of wearing my 'Ard Boyz shirt to Warmachine events. It amuses me to do so, and most everyone there already knows I'm an arse anyways, so I might as well advertise it to the unwary as well.

Shhhhhhh..... I was trying to make the point you do not have to be an "arse" to remind a supplier there is other competition out there and to "sharpen their pencils".
Short of avoiding off colour images or wording, it is rather poor taste to control what your customers wear and I "think" GW has not gone that far yet.

Staying to topic GW shirts are from $24 to $30!
Privateer press shirts are $16.
Darn competition must be making those in China...

 mattyrm wrote:
I don't know, if you are willfully and obstinately taking the piss, do you really deserve your cash back?

If you went into the home end during a football game, and then whipped your jacket off to sport the opposition teams colors, I would expect you to get thrown out for being a dick, and money be damned. Same goes for anything along those lines, walking into a mosque on Friday prayers wearing traditional garb and then whipping it off to show a "BACON RULES" shirt, marching into a feminist rally with a NO MEANS YES, YES MEANS ANAL, or anything else along those lines.

The whole idea of having to separate the supporters of opposing sports teams (to prevent violence and such) is foreign in North America, and thus makes a poor example for many of us. You'd get some cheeful ribbing and jokes but that's it. It's totally acceptable and expected here.

In the other examples you're talking about religion and rape, which can hardly be equated to walking into the Apple store wearing a Microsoft t-shirt (which I believe is a better comparison). If GW isn't mature enough to ignore a slight jab about companies in the leisure gaming market, then they really should grow up.

I am gone. Chess club has been moved to when the non donkeycave players play, and I found a flames of war group within 30 minutes.

 Haemonculus wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
It's shocking when you look at what $50 gets you in the RPG market. Many, many times the page count, original fiction, more art. With GW it gets you a thin volume with recycled art and fiction.

That's simply untrue. The last few codexes have had lots of new artwork and new fiction, but some fiction is repeated simply because there's no need to re-invent the wheel. I recently received Vampire the Masquerade and Werewolf the Apocalypse 20th Anniversary Editions, which were twice the cost of the new codexes, and filled with repeated art and fiction. GW is not the only company to do that, it would seem, and not the worst offender. But it does appear that it's only a problem if GW does this.

But compared to companies where you can get the rules for free, or where army books are optional and you get stat cards with each unit....

 Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Anyone else miss the days when army books and codices only cost 25$?

I remember when they were $19. And Space Marines came in boxes of 30. And Rhinos were 3 to a box :(

My 8 y.o. son expressed interest, I looked at current prices, bollocks! I cant even get bits from the Warstore anymore.

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

Shame prices have gotten so out of hand. I've got other things that require that kind of money (gas for 2 vehicles, food for children, sports for children, mortgage, student loans etc). Hats off to you that dont have to worry about expenses.

Adulthood: FEAR IT!

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:
Anyone else miss the days when army books and codices only cost 25$?

I remember when they were $19. And Space Marines came in boxes of 30. And Rhinos were 3 to a box :(

My 8 y.o. son expressed interest, I looked at current prices, bollocks! I cant even get bits from the Warstore anymore.

So, we'll just use my 25 year collection and stick with 4th or 5th ed, whichever he agrees to. He can pick Tau, Nids, IG, Orks, SM (4 chapters to chose), GK or CSM.

Shame prices have gotten so out of hand. I've got other things that require that kind of money (gas for 2 vehicles, food for children, sports for children, mortgage, student loans etc). Hats off to you that dont have to worry about expenses.

Adulthood: FEAR IT!

25 years ago! ? I think a fair amount of the increase would be due to inflation ( Prices of things have roughly doubled since 1985).

Though ofc GW raises prices in excess of inflation, that is the issue.

Just posting this in case anyone starts trying to argue that space marines should still cost 19 dollars.

Ashitaka wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
I don't know, if you are willfully and obstinately taking the piss, do you really deserve your cash back?

If you went into the home end during a football game, and then whipped your jacket off to sport the opposition teams colors, I would expect you to get thrown out for being a dick, and money be damned. Same goes for anything along those lines, walking into a mosque on Friday prayers wearing traditional garb and then whipping it off to show a "BACON RULES" shirt, marching into a feminist rally with a NO MEANS YES, YES MEANS ANAL, or anything else along those lines.

The whole idea of having to separate the supporters of opposing sports teams (to prevent violence and such) is foreign in North America, and thus makes a poor example for many of us. You'd get some cheeful ribbing and jokes but that's it. It's totally acceptable and expected here.

In the other examples you're talking about religion and rape, which can hardly be equated to walking into the Apple store wearing a Microsoft t-shirt (which I believe is a better comparison). If GW isn't mature enough to ignore a slight jab about companies in the leisure gaming market, then they really should grow up.

So your not a Raider fan. We had security remove supporters for the other team for there own safety. Oh, and the safety of the fans in the stands below, drunks throwing stuff miss a lot.