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Quite simply, how much am I hurting myself if I run them stock to save points?

Yes. Imagine bouncing missiles off them all day as opposed to 1 failed save killing a guy.

It's like saying you get twice the wounds for 18 points against str 8-9 weapons.

For squads it's probably a bigger deal than for solo Oblits.

depends on how much str 8 you commonly face. I regularly play a guy that brings two unmarked oblits and I delight in negating their two wounds with a well-placed krak missile. they day he fielded them with MoN was a sad day.

 varl wrote:
depends on how much str 8 you commonly face. I regularly play a guy that brings two unmarked oblits and I delight in negating their two wounds with a well-placed krak missile. they day he fielded them with MoN was a sad day.

I can understand the risk of lascannons and lancea, but why fear missiles? A 2+ save should keep you safe enough.

I usually have a few missiles to throw around each turn and not a lot of heavier stuff to shoot them at (he doesn't run mech). since it's str 8, I only need you to fail one save. 2+ is awesome, but you'll fail it sooner or later and I only have to get lucky once instead of twice. against MoN, I have a lot more work to do. YMMV

Because if you roll a 1 against a missile and you're unmarked you'll lose a guy and then you're going to be taking a morale test on a what, 8?

They are not worth taking otherwise.

Agreed.

For a relatively small points investment, you greatly increase their durability.

Pish tosh. You don't need MoN more than you need any other mark.

You already have a 2+ save. You already have a 5++. You already can deepstrike them and blow stuff up before it can hurt you, and you can always stick them in cover and, as they're not fearless, get as much of a GTG cover save as you want with twin-linked weapons.

And far from every weapon is S8+, and far from every weapon is Ap2.

The plain fact is that MoN isn't going to seriously help you against everything that shoots at you. Not by a long, long shot. The relative increase in survivability you get against most weapons is very, very small.

This is a classic black swan situation. Just because there exist black swans doesn't mean a vast majority of them aren't white.


... plus, if you wanted to keep them safe against S8+ weapons, odds are pretty good that they're also going to be Ap2 or better, which means that if you're REALLY concerned about ID, you should give them MoT.

... plus, if you wanted to keep them safe against S8+ weapons, odds are pretty good that they're also going to be Ap2 or better, which means that if you're REALLY concerned about ID, you should give them MoT.

For an incremental increase that does far poorer then MoN, one shot still can get through easily and ID them, with MoN they'll survive to the next shot.

You already have a 2+ save. You already have a 5++. You already can deepstrike them and blow stuff up before it can hurt you, and you can always stick them in cover and, as they're not fearless, get as much of a GTG cover save as you want with twin-linked weapons.

And they'll be far safer if Units direct their fire at them.

The plain fact is that MoN isn't going to seriously help you against everything that shoots at you. Not by a long, long shot. The relative increase in survivability you get against most weapons is very, very small.

If you don't know math probably, it's actually quite a decent increase.

ish tosh. You don't need MoN more than you need any other mark.

You already have a 2+ save. You already have a 5++. You already can deepstrike them and blow stuff up before it can hurt you, and you can always stick them in cover and, as they're not fearless, get as much of a GTG cover save as you want with twin-linked weapons.

And far from every weapon is S8+, and far from every weapon is Ap2.

The plain fact is that MoN isn't going to seriously help you against everything that shoots at you. Not by a long, long shot. The relative increase in survivability you get against most weapons is very, very small.

This is just objectively false.



MoN is easily the best investment for your Oblits. It helps a great deal for survivability, against Small arms, and against Higher strength weapons that would normally ID the T4 ones. It really is a small investment to ensure that they stay around as long as possible, and is easily the best mark you can take on them.

 Ailaros wrote:

The plain fact is that MoN isn't going to seriously help you against everything that shoots at you. Not by a long, long shot. The relative increase in survivability you get against most weapons is very, very small.

Why do you say this? I mean, sure, it doesn't help against sniper, poison, S7, or S10 weapons, so you're right that technically it isn't going to seriously help you against everything, but it's pretty amazing against the vast majority of weapons

It's good for:

100% more survivability against S3, S8, and S9).
25% more survivability against S6.
33% more survivability against S5.
50% more survivability against S4.

Are your opponents bringing nothing but Autocannons?

Mark of Tzeentch, which you recommended, is a 33% boost in survivability against AP1 and AP2 weapons only. So it can't be Autocannons you're worried about. You're just running into dozens of plasma guns? 3 Hammerheads?

Black swans.

How much does MoN help you against bolters? Not very much. How much does it help you against plasma guns? Not at all. Run down the list of all the things you could shoot or chop at an obliterator that are both S8 and Ap2. They're in the small minority, especially once you start looking at the actual saturation you'll come across (you'll see a LOT more bolters than railguns, for example). And you can STILL be IDed by S10 weapons on the top end to boot.

Then, once you're done looking at this small set of weapons where this actually matters, then you remember that cover saves exist, and that they have an invul save, and that the ID-proofing only comes into play once you've failed those saves.

Just because the rewards look big when they happen doesn't make them very likely to happen. It's like people playing the lotto once the jackpot starts cranking up to higher numbers. Just because the payout is bigger doesn't mean it's worth blowing money on lotto tickets every day.

...but it's good for 50% more survivability against Bolters for a <10% increase in cost. And the MoN stacks with 4+ cover saves, unlike the MoT.

It is more durable against the small stuff, that's true, but what small stuff is going to be shooting at your obliterators? If your opponent is shooting anti-TEq stuff against them, then the MoN isn't that useful.

Which is something else important. Obliterators saturate with other stuff. If you're giving your opponents land raiders or terminators, or something much more immediately threatening than a couple of obliterators, then they're not shooting at your obliterators, which makes MoN worthless as well.

Furthermore, the question at hand isn't "can MoN be useful?" Certainly you paid points for an upgrade, and the upgraded unit got better. The question is if it's critical. It's "can you run obliterators without MoN?"

An upgrade can be useful without also being necessary. Like MoN for obliterators, for example.

But you were just complaining that MoN doesn't help enough against Bolters!

Sure, if nobody's shooting at your Obliterators then spending points to make them more durable is silly. Do you really find that they're the last units to die?

Which is something else important. Obliterators saturate with other stuff. If you're giving your opponents land raiders or terminators, or something much more immediately threatening than a couple of obliterators, then they're not shooting at your obliterators, which makes MoN worthless as well.

Lets see, terminators are not more frightening then oblits, so that's worthless. Land raiders are overall stronger, but they'll still concentrate their S8 fire on the oblits because of better rewards vs diminishing returns.

Not to mention you're deflecting on the subject. In a TAC list the MoN is far away the best choice for oblits bar none. Just because the black swan is is fighting against the current doesn't mean that it's swimming better then the crowd.

If you can't make terminators more scary than obliterators, then yeah, you probably need MoN to keep parts of your army alive. Of course, you've got bigger problems if the scariest thing in your entire army is just a couple of obliterators.

And a durability upgrade that is only useful against things that are bad against obliterators isn't "far away" the best anything, much less a critical upgrade.

 Ailaros wrote:
If you can't make terminators more scary than obliterators, then yeah, you probably need MoN to keep parts of your army alive. Of course, you've got bigger problems if the scariest thing in your entire army is just a couple of obliterators.

And a durability upgrade that is only useful against things that are bad against obliterators isn't "far away" the best anything, much less a critical upgrade.

If Terminators are the scariest thing in your army, then you've got some major issues in list building that's gonna hit you hard in a TAC list regardless, though I suppose in a fun army you could attempt to try and make Terminators scary, but I feel he's looking for a Competitive list, not some funny little list that wouldn't last against a real army.

MoN is the best upgrade for Oblits.

My friend runs Black Legion and I have a Slaaneshi themed army. Both of us have used Obliterators and felt like we got our points worth, neither of us use the Mark of Nurgle.

So, OP, it is possible to use them this way. The others are right that the MoN is very useful however.

I would always take it. The % increase in durability that you get, against everything but s7, for the % points you spend on marking them is really quite good.

MoN Oblits are frustratingly difficult to kill with anything but mass plasma.

Is it MANDATORY? No. Should you take it? Most likely.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
My friend runs Black Legion and I have a Slaaneshi themed army. Both of us have used Obliterators and felt like we got our points worth, neither of us use the Mark of Nurgle.

So, OP, it is possible to use them this way. The others are right that the MoN is very useful however.

Random krak missiles and stupid Khorne's Wrath from the Warp Storm ( ) has changed my views on this (I am the Black Legion player in question).

For less than +10% increase in price you're seeing quite a number of options for dealing with these guys disappear from your opponents arsenal. In a 200+ point unit, you're getting a huge benefit for that extra 18 points. So no, not critical, but an absolute bargain.

Yes it's a mandatory upgrade. For the amount of points you are already spending on Oblits, it is insurance that they won't be sniped by lascannons... especially on the frame of a Vendetta. Cover/invul saves are just not adequate to defend against it. It is also excellent against small arms fire, which oblits face quite often if you use them correctly advancing into enemy lines with them. Like eldar weaponry for instance, that has rending shots now... you need to reduce the amount of shots coming through. A squad of 3 obliterators with MON is a tough nut to crack for any army. Toughness is the most powerful attribute in the stat line, any increase in toughness is nearly always worth it.

Ok so lets look at it from a math stand point between the 3 things we are discussing. Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Nothing.

Against S3 through S6 with AP 3+ Nurgle Oblits are the cheapest value on Points spent per hit required to kill. For instance it takes 36 S4 hits to kill a Nurgle oblit, and only 24 to kill either Tzeentch or Unmarked. So on a point per hit to kill scale you pay 2.1 points per hit for Nugle, 2.92 for Unmarked, and 3.25 of Tzeentch.

Against S7 Unmarked are the best.

Against S8-9 Nurgle are almost twice as durable as unmarked per point.

S10 Unmarked go back to being the best points wise.

When looking at AP 2

Nurgle is still the best S3 - S5

Tzeentch is best against S6 and S7

S8-9 Nurgle is once again best (54% the cost of unmarked per hit required)

S10 Tzeentch is back on top and Nurgle is worst.

So what it comes down to for me is this.

If you absolutely do not have the points then unmarked can work but if you can spare the minimal amount of points for the Nurgle upgrade it is well worth it. (We are talking about maximum 54 points)

pantsonhead wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

The plain fact is that MoN isn't going to seriously help you against everything that shoots at you. Not by a long, long shot. The relative increase in survivability you get against most weapons is very, very small.

Why do you say this? I mean, sure, it doesn't help against sniper, poison, S7, or S10 weapons, so you're right that technically it isn't going to seriously help you against everything, but it's pretty amazing against the vast majority of weapons

It's good for:
100% more survivability against S3, S8, and S9).
25% more survivability against S6.
33% more survivability against S5.
50% more survivability against S4.
Are your opponents bringing nothing but Autocannons?
Mark of Tzeentch, which you recommended, is a 33% boost in survivability against AP1 and AP2 weapons only. So it can't be Autocannons you're worried about. You're just running into dozens of plasma guns? 3 Hammerheads?

It also gives you nothing against Str2....(gretchin attack!)

If you face a lot of Plasma and Demo Cannons it doesnt seem worth it. But even with the abundence of plasma, it really does more often than not keep the oblits around far longer than you would otherwise expect.

Both the MoT and MoN means on average two lascannon shots will end you, but if you roll badly for the MoT you autodie, while if you fail a save for the MoN against the lascannon, so what? You still have a wound left.

 Kain wrote:
Both the MoT and MoN means on average two lascannon shots will end you, but if you roll badly for the MoT you autodie, while if you fail a save for the MoN against the lascannon, so what? You still have a wound left.

It takes a lot more than 2 shots. It takes 1.8 HITs to kill an unmarked one, for IG that is usually 3.6 shots, less for vendettas and vets.

Lascannons hits
Unmarked 1.8 hits to kill
MoN 3.6 hits
MoT 2.4 hits

Furthermore, MoN can take advantage of ruins, ADL, gtg, and some other obscure cover. MoT gets less effectiveness out of cover, because the cover save needs to be better than 4+ for them to get anything out of it.

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Both the MoT and MoN means on average two lascannon shots will end you, but if you roll badly for the MoT you autodie, while if you fail a save for the MoN against the lascannon, so what? You still have a wound left.

It takes a lot more than 2 shots. It takes 1.8 HITs to kill an unmarked one, for IG that is usually 3.6 shots, less for vendettas and vets.

Lascannons hits
Unmarked 1.8 hits to kill
MoN 3.6 hits
MoT 2.4 hits

Furthermore, MoN can take advantage of ruins, ADL, gtg, and some other obscure cover. MoT gets less effectiveness out of cover, because the cover save needs to be better than 4+ for them to get anything out of it.

But hey, the MoT can get soul blaze which does erm....waste everyone's time?

 Kain wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Both the MoT and MoN means on average two lascannon shots will end you, but if you roll badly for the MoT you autodie, while if you fail a save for the MoN against the lascannon, so what? You still have a wound left.

It takes a lot more than 2 shots. It takes 1.8 HITs to kill an unmarked one, for IG that is usually 3.6 shots, less for vendettas and vets.

Lascannons hits
Unmarked 1.8 hits to kill
MoN 3.6 hits
MoT 2.4 hits

Furthermore, MoN can take advantage of ruins, ADL, gtg, and some other obscure cover. MoT gets less effectiveness out of cover, because the cover save needs to be better than 4+ for them to get anything out of it.

But hey, the MoT can get soul blaze which does erm....waste everyone's time?

They cant even get soul blaze